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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    The collapse of long time guilds left and right isn't normal...
    Guilds dying all the time IS normal,
    cause everyday some nub thinks he can make a "better" guild....

    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    this xpac is designed to burn the playerbase out faster than ever.
    no its to have them longer engaged like vanilla did.

    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    Blizzard is learning the hard way that "total hours played" is only a good metric when those hours are fun and engaging
    Just because something AINT fun for YOU it doesnt mean its a fail, it just means YOU DONT like it.
    up vdj qfi uh oj lbu ut vkgpe bfut ojhj tznh ojm mjls pgtu ovdp nnvpzl dvg!

  2. #142
    I've been Guild Master for 5 years, Raid Leader for 6 years and I've seen it all. The cycle repeats itself on every expansion. People are hyped at first, raiding goes well and you usually have too much people at first. Then you need to be selective for MM, or just can't take "noobs" because you're progressing in the Raid dificulties and you need your best effectives, people rant and stop raiding. Then you get stuck in progression, and people start not showing up by lack of interest (I've already completed the raid in Normal mode, so Im done with the story! And that new game is out!), frustration ("You don't pick me up for raids! Oh what?... what is a Raid Calendar? I didn't know"), or they are looking somewhere else that goes faster ("You guys are not power-leveling me anymore, so Im out.")

    Usually, once the general content is completed, unless you reroll or need to have those 10k Expedition Achievement, or etc, people loose interest. The game is done! What else is there to do but to only repeat what you've done in the last 3-4 months? People wants everything fast, but without working hard for it. Or the opposite, hard working players get disappointed by the lack of progression in the guild and leave. The worst is usually fights between guildmates, or arguments during raiding on TeamSpeak, etc, it breaks people morale. The problem is usually that people are either lazy, selfish and/or won't take responsibilities or try to play more seriously.

    Mythic raiding, for example, needs dedication. It will take time, its gonna be painful, you'll need a lot of chillpills and a lot more. Not everybody signed up for this, or just can't meet these requirements because of IRL.

    I need to relink the latest Dark Legacy comic, because its so f-word true, it brings back memories (but is still very actual) and makes Illidian's famous quote ever so true: "You are not prepared!".
    Last edited by Ravingmad; 2017-03-21 at 09:08 PM.

  3. #143
    y there is every type on a guild

    1. only cares for story and normal mode and stops logging
    2. wants some challenge, it will play heroic and stops logging
    3. will only stop after getting its 4 tier sets, doesn't matter if its normal or heroic
    4. will only stay for set 2/4pc on heroic and trinkets and reaching some ilvl to be ready for next raid on normal and stops logging
    etc etc
    then comes the ones that always are there to get the best gear possible for next raid (warforged, titan)

    one of the tricks is to only give gear to them the least possible to delay the inevitable and the gear going to proper players and what they rage? they quit anyway and at least no gear is lost

  4. #144
    It's called confirmation bias. Just another doomsday thread.

  5. #145
    Lots of guilds fall apart and are remade with the fractured sets of members. This happens all the time, even with the largest and most successful raiding guilds in the world.

    It does sound like the OP has had bad luck, but this stuff does happen. It's nothing to fret about though; just keep trying new guilds until one sticks, and if you find one you like, stick with it as long as it remains the guild you want to be in.

    The number one thing I've seen kill long term guilds (non-hardcore raiding, at least) is leadership. Either the leader will get tired of leading -- often from lack of support of fellow officers, but frequently enough from just general burn out, too -- or the leadership will get pressured to do bad things from people they care about, you know... girl/boyfriends, significant others... etc. Members aren't happy with the change and quit in droves. Every good guild I've ever been a part of eventually disbanded to stuff like this.

    Either way, WoW isn't dying, it's just a matter of life in gaming. Guilds die, and new ones are formed. Nothing unusual about this.

  6. #146
    Not enough people making friends with their guild mates and joining guilds for, in my opinion, the wrong reason. Gamers need to stop seeing their guilds as a tool to get loot or clear content. If they focus more on having fun with friends the gear/content comes naturally as a by product. Casual not in dedication or play time but in focus.

  7. #147
    Legendary! Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    Player retention is the issue... and despite what people say, retention does matter. What does it take 3-4 months of sub fee to equal the cost of the xpac? Also people who don't stay subbed aren't buying pets or server transfers. Player retention will be awful this xpac because they added cheap systems to force grind rather than concentrate on making compelling, abundant, and accessible content like they did in Wrath and MOP, arguably their most successful xpacs.
    Let's just say subs are down to 5 million. That's approximately 900 million in subscription revenue a year. Expansions don't cost more than a couple hundred million to produce. If they sell 5 million copies over it's lifetime they've recouped the entire cost of development. So it's pure profit. Micro transactions are just the icing on the cash cow of a cake they already have.

    And when I say accessible, I mean that you don't need to jump through a billion hoops to be relevant for mythic raiding. WOD had accessibility, but very poorly received and limited content outside of raiding. MOP was successful in satisfying raiders, PVPers, and people who were more interested in other content.
    WoW could survive on 1 million subscribers and easily continue making enough cash to comfortably produce expansions. Most MMO's never had more than a million after the first year. EQ peaked at 500k and it has 20 expansions now. Other MMO's are also producing content with sub 1 million users in a F2P market.

    98% of the players doesn't participate in Mythic raiding. So guess what? The core player base doesn't give a damn. They are happy with tons of content to participate in. Hell even PVP is more fun now that things are templated and you don't get stomped.

    Player retention after 13 years is unheard of. Every month that goes by they are breaking new ground because *NO* product has maintained a subscriber base this large for this period of time. Truth? The game should've died 8 years ago but it's an anomaly. Saying what should be important doesn't make sense because we're long past that point in time. Either embrace the game or don't play. No one is going to quit a game they are happy playing because someone named Iceman said they should on a forum.
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  8. #148
    Blizzard decided mythic raiding should have higher barriers, and rather than gating them behind skill they gated them behind grinding. It burned a bunch of players out, its in the process of burning out the rest, and soon it'll be a thing of the past. People who want to play challenging games play other games anyway, and as an esport they get a lot more attention from hearthstone and overwatch. Seems like a pretty conscious decision, its a bummer because mythic raiding is pretty fun, but they seem to have collectively decided that the amount of attention and effort it takes to address people upset about 1% difference in class balances and finetuning issues isn't worth it, and if they can design a fun raid that people can blow through in a week they're good with that.

    I find emmissary quests to be boring, mythic + is losing its interest since it caps gear and achievement rewards at 15 and the challenging stuff is around 24-25+ at this point, and nobody wants to do hard content if there isn't rewards, and the struggle of finding people for mythic with how many people are bailing on the game right now is pretty meh. Long as I can pay for the game with gold i'll be around, since its like an hour of gameplay a month to make enough gold to buy a token, but if that changes (tokens hit 200-300k, they get rid of them, or people stop buying runs, whichever comes first) I'll unsub and not look back.

    I miss mop a lot. Hitting 90 and being able to raid heroic a month later with a new spec/class was a lot of fun. Raid quality was pretty good. Pretty much the only complaint I have with it is that SoO lasted 14 months. You give me mop gameplay and class mechanics, mop legendaries, and the release of content at the rate of legion and I'd be one happy camper. Oh well, to each their own, its blizzards baby and its theirs to try and run as a business.

  9. #149
    Blizzard had a problem. Players were quitting too quickly.

    "I know what I'll do!" said Blizzard. "I'll make the raids more difficult."

    Now Blizzard had two problems.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome." -- Samuel Johnson

  10. #150
    Stood in the Fire
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    Guilds are generally as solid as their leadership. If the officers and gm aren't interested in sinking almost all their free time into it they'll fall appart eventually. I've personally spent an unreasonable amount of time in building and maintaining my guild for 10 years now. But in Legion even I find myself burning myself out, not because I had to farm legendaries or 54 traits, I would've done that anyway, but more because I don't feel like investing 10 hours a day into recruiting just to end up stressing that person out by pushing them to keep up with traits and leggos and everything else.

    But the problem there lies in the content being tuned to 54 traits so I can't just let it slide if they want to raid under our banner.

    Hopefully 7.2 will lower the demand for AP farming what goes for raid tuning. I feel it would be more appealing for people to keep playing if that was the case.
    One does not need tactical genius to conquer the French. They surrender anyway.

  11. #151
    Stood in the Fire Drefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Blizzard had a problem. Players were quitting too quickly.

    "I know what I'll do!" said Blizzard. "I'll make the raids more difficult."

    Now Blizzard had two problems.
    The content is not too hard. The pre-progression grind is killing of guilds, not the actual raid itself.
    You put in so many hours, just preparing for the raid, and then the content is over within 1-3 weeks.
    That's not worth the time investment, atleast in my eyes and I guess a lot of others feel so too.

    You are basically farming mythic+ as a part time job just to make sure the content wont be overtuned since u lack the artifact traits "needed".
    The main reason most people could hardcore raid was because you took time off work/school and was then able to make up for it after.
    Which atleast for me has been impossible in this expansion. This is just my view on the matter, maybe it was diffrent for others.
    Ex-Rdruid of FatSharkYes now retired due to legion's insane grind

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Let's just say subs are down to 5 million. That's approximately 900 million in subscription revenue a year. Expansions don't cost more than a couple hundred million to produce. If they sell 5 million copies over it's lifetime they've recouped the entire cost of development. So it's pure profit. Micro transactions are just the icing on the cash cow of a cake they already have.



    WoW could survive on 1 million subscribers and easily continue making enough cash to comfortably produce expansions. Most MMO's never had more than a million after the first year. EQ peaked at 500k and it has 20 expansions now. Other MMO's are also producing content with sub 1 million users in a F2P market.

    98% of the players doesn't participate in Mythic raiding. So guess what? The core player base doesn't give a damn. They are happy with tons of content to participate in. Hell even PVP is more fun now that things are templated and you don't get stomped.

    Player retention after 13 years is unheard of. Every month that goes by they are breaking new ground because *NO* product has maintained a subscriber base this large for this period of time. Truth? The game should've died 8 years ago but it's an anomaly. Saying what should be important doesn't make sense because we're long past that point in time. Either embrace the game or don't play. No one is going to quit a game they are happy playing because someone named Iceman said they should on a forum.
    subs are probably down under 2 million but they still have a cash cow that they can keep going indefinitely because of so many that have good memories of this game. On the other hand, Blizzard seems intent on screwing up one of the best expansions they have ever released with excessive RNG and time sinks built to feed the new hours in game metric of success they have. WoW may not be dead but its sure as hell bleeding...

  13. #153
    I'd blame facebook before I blame blizzard.

    Its harder than ever nowadays to find people that want to be "in a guild".

    Most people want what the guild can give them. Namely, a raidgroup thats more stable and convenient than what they can find in the crossrealm group finder.

    But they don't want to do any more work than necessary to retain that spot. Even if its only something simple like contributing to the feast/flask fund. Or helping a guildie with a dungeon now and then. The moment they're asked to spend THEIR TIME doing stuff that doesnt directly benefit THEM, they find the next location that will give the most reward for the least effort.

    Yes, some people actually want to connect and form lasting friendly relationships with those they play games with... and are willing to go to great lengths to help out those in the same guild as them...

    but in the 'age of facebook' it seems like these are a dying breed. people would rather add/delete anyone that doesn't fit into their mindset of instant gratification and reward... instead of looking at the longterm.... that they will get added/deleted in turn.

    why are guilds collapsing ? cuz they weren't guilds in the first place. they were 1 or 2 "initiators" that everyone else was mooching off of. a real guild has more "initiators" than moochers.... and works hard to either "turn" those moochers into fellow intiators... or remove them from the guild.

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