Canada, 10 other countries call out China for torturing human rights lawyers

[Cthulhu 2020]

The thing is, our concern for human rights violations was never really anything more than a form of "virtue signaling" where we could act superior to the uncivilized commies while at the same time having a pretext to meddle in their affairs and fuck with them as we saw fit. As we no longer really see fit to do so, we aren't so committed to defending human rights anymore, though we still need to keep up the pretense from time to time to save face.

I'm really not big on faux guilt for things I didn't even do.

I hear this and similar lines a lot from people, but the fact of the matter is, this "we" part makes all the actions of the US, Canada, UK, Europe, etc. sound so uniform and universal. Meanwhile, most of us have pretty consistent morals when it comes to both belief AND actions.

[Bakis]

Good, now if those countries want to be take seriously they would not trade so much with China.
High horse OP like usual.

[Macaquerie]

I'm really not big on faux guilt for things I didn't even do.

I hear this and similar lines a lot from people, but the fact of the matter is, this "we" part makes all the actions of the US, Canada, UK, Europe, etc. sound so uniform and universal. Meanwhile, most of us have pretty consistent morals when it comes to both belief AND actions.

You have to think about how this ends up sounding like to people living in China, Saudi Arabia, or wherever - just more uppity white folks in their ivory towers of privilege, bleating about problems they don't understand and trying to re-impose colonial values on people who have rejected them. Even the dissidents and oppressed minorities that human rights advocates are supposedly looking out for generally have a low opinion of Westerners, because they know that our interest in their struggles is generally only a passing fancy, and that most generally lose interest and move onto some other cause before taking any real action.

Dictatorial regimes know we won't take any real action to stop their abuses, because sanctions, trade wars, or, God forbid, actual shooting wars generally cause much more suffering to the general public there than torture camps, and only turns the people that we're supposed to be protecting against us. I think that most Iraqis would probably admit that they preferred life under Saddam to the chaos they have had to put up with for the last 15 years.

[May90]

You have to think about how this ends up sounding like to people living in China, Saudi Arabia, or wherever - just more uppity white folks in their ivory towers of privilege, bleating about problems they don't understand and trying to re-impose colonial values on people who have rejected them. Even the dissidents and oppressed minorities that human rights advocates are supposedly looking out for generally have a low opinion of Westerners, because they know that our interest in their struggles is generally only a passing fancy, and that most generally lose interest and move onto some other cause before taking any real action.

Dictatorial regimes know we won't take any real action to stop their abuses, because sanctions, trade wars, or, God forbid, actual shooting wars generally cause much more suffering to the general public there than torture camps, and only turns the people that we're supposed to be protecting against us. I think that most Iraqis would probably admit that they preferred life under Saddam to the chaos they have had to put up with for the last 15 years.

I think, the problem is, the modern Western society has two idealistic kinds of people, both forming a significant fraction of the population, that stop any discussion of any real interference in its root.

The first kind is "big stick" folks, the ones who believe that everything we do should be solely for our gain, should be advantageous to us, and if it helps someone else at our expense, then it is not a worthy affair.

The other kind is misguided folks who say, for example, "What Saudi Arabians do in Saudi Arabia is none of our business. We must accept everything they do and tolerate it, and not stick our nose where it does not belong."

These two groups kind of blend with everyone else and create the picture of Westerners that do not really care about human right abuse anywhere, as long as it doesn't concern their luxurious life. While it is true for many, it is not true for all, but every time someone genuinely wanting to improve human right situations in other countries dares to speak up, the first two groups, from the opposite points of view, shun them and make the general population sympathize less with their cause.

In the past, it took Soviet Union and the threat of global totalitarian dictatorship to fight for human rights, because defending human rights was the best way to prevent spread of the communism. Now that Soviet Union is gone and there are no real totalitarian empires to be fearful of, human rights topic turned into a convenient talking point people use to raise their political score - but, more often than not, that (talking) is where the initiative ends.

[Independent voter]

Here's a list of famous political prisoners many who were tortured by the Chinese government some of them lawyers. There are many more political prisoners who are not famous.



Liao Yiwu writer, musician 1990 poem "Massacre" about Tiananmen Square 4 years, permanent blacklist from travel Under a 2011 'travel ban' for 'national security' reasons.
Bao Tong government official 1989 revealing state secrets and counter-revolutionary propagandizing 7 years Sentenced 1992. Prison: 1989–1996. As of 2009, under surveillance.
Tang Baiqiao activist 1989 spreading counterrevolutionary propaganda; inciting counterrevolutionary activities; defection to the enemy; treason. 3 years Released under international pressure 1991. Fled to Hong Kong, then U.S. 1992.
Zhao Lianhai food safety worker, activist 2009 inciting social disorder 2.5 years Sentenced 2010.[1][2]
Bao Zunxin historian 1989 counterrevolutionary propaganda and incitement 5 years Sentenced 1991. Released 1992, died 2007.
Chen Pokong author, commentator, democracy activist 1989, 1993 "carrying out counter-revolutionary propaganda and incitement", illegally crossing state borders 3 years, 2 years Sentenced 1989 and 1993.[3]
Cai Lujun businessman, writer 2003 incitement to subversion 3 years Released 2006, sought political asylum in Taiwan in 2007.
Gao Zhisheng lawyer ~2006 disturbing public order 5 yrs suspended Illegally detained and tortured in 2007; forcibly removed from family home in Shaanxi in 2009.[4]

'Disappeared' by government in 2009, reappeared in 2010. The Chinese foreign minister claimed a prison sentence was for 'subversion'.[5][6]
Guo Quan professor 2008 subversion of state power 10 years Sentenced 2009. Awaiting appeal.
He Depu writer 2002 "incited subversion" on the Internet[7] 8 years Sentenced 2003. Expected release 2010.
Hu Jia activist 2007 inciting subversion of state power 3.5 years Arrested, imprisoned, and sentenced in 2008. Expected release 2011.
Huang Qi webmaster, anti-human trafficking activist 2000 inciting subversion 5 years Sentenced 2003. Accused of violating articles 103, 105, 55 and 56. Released 2005.
2008 illegal possession of state secrets 3 years Sentenced 2009. Arrested after essay regarding the Sichuan earthquake.
Ilham Tohti economist 2014 guilty of separatism life Detained in January 2014 after criticizing Beijing's response to 2013 Tiananmen Square attack.
Jiang Lijun writer 2002 inciting subversion of the state power 4 years Sentenced 2003. Arrested for "Internet writing and publishing dissident articles". Also sentenced to 'deprivation of political rights' for 1 year.
Jiang Yanyong doctor 2004 Detained and released in 2004. Broke story on SARS epidemic. Wrote critical letter regarding Tiananmen.
Li Hai student 1994 9 years Sentenced in 1995. Released 2004.
Li Zhi civil servant 2003 inciting subversion 8 years Sentenced 2003. Yahoo! helped the government against him. Expected release in 2011.
Liu Di student 2002 Released in 2003
Liu Xiaobo professor of literature 2008 inciting subversion of state power 11 years Sentenced 2009. Expected release 2020. Recipient of the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize.
Jiang Rong writer 1989 Released 1991.
Shi Tao journalist, writer, poet 2004 illegally supplying state secrets to overseas organizations 10 years Sentenced 2005. Yahoo! helped the government against him. Expected release 2014.[8][9]
Tan Zuoren writer 2008 3 years Sentenced 2009.
2010 subversion of state power 5 years Sentenced 2010.
Wang Dan professor of history 1989 Tiananmen activities 4 years Sentenced 1991. Released on parole in 1993.
1995 11 years Sentenced 1996. Released on medical parole to U.S. in 1998; currently in Taiwan.
Wang Xiaoning engineer 2002 incitement to subvert state power 10 years Sentenced 2003. Yahoo! helped the government against him. Expected release 2012[10]
Wang Bingzhang doctor 2002 spying, terrorism life Sentenced 2003.
Wang Youcai 1989 [citation needed]
~1998 subversion 11 years Released and exiled in 2004; currently in the United States.
Wei Jingsheng electrician 1979 passing military secrets 15 years Released and jailed again in 1993; released for "medical reasons" and deported to the US in 1997.
Xu Zhiyong lawyer, lecturer 2014 gathering crowds to disrupt public order 4 years For his role of founding New Citizens' Movement and in protests.
Yuan Hongbing jurist, writer 1994 Detained and forced to leave China in 1994; travelled to and sought political asylum in Australia in 2004.
Zhao Changqing teacher of history 1989 Tiananmen activities Released after about 1/2 year.
1998 workers rights activity 3 years
2002 attempted subversion of state power 5 years Sentenced 2003.[11]
Zeng Jinyan blogger 2006 suspected of harming state security Under house arrest with husband Hu Jia from August 2006 - March 2007; currently under house arrest again, since May 2007.[12]
Cheng Jianping online activist 2010 disturbing social order 1 year Reeducation through labor for a sarcastic post on Twitter.[13]
Ai Weiwei artist and activist 2011 alleged economic crimes Fine of 2.4 million for tax evasion Detained for 80 days from April 3.[14] to 22 June 2011
Jiang Yefei political cartoonist 2015 incitement to subversion Escaped from China to Thailand in 2004, he was granted political asylum by the Canadian Government, but was arrested by Thailand Immigration authorities on illegal entry. In November 2015 he was deported from Thailand at the request of the Chinese authorities and now awaiting trial in custody.[1

[Macaquerie]

I think, the problem is, the modern Western society has two idealistic kinds of people, both forming a significant fraction of the population, that stop any discussion of any real interference in its root.

The first kind is "big stick" folks, the ones who believe that everything we do should be solely for our gain, should be advantageous to us, and if it helps someone else at our expense, then it is not a worthy affair.

The other kind is misguided folks who say, for example, "What Saudi Arabians do in Saudi Arabia is none of our business. We must accept everything they do and tolerate it, and not stick our nose where it does not belong."

These two groups kind of blend with everyone else and create the picture of Westerners that do not really care about human right abuse anywhere, as long as it doesn't concern their luxurious life. While it is true for many, it is not true for all, but every time someone genuinely wanting to improve human right situations in other countries dares to speak up, the first two groups, from the opposite points of view, shun them and make the general population sympathize less with their cause.

In the past, it took Soviet Union and the threat of global totalitarian dictatorship to fight for human rights, because defending human rights was the best way to prevent spread of the communism. Now that Soviet Union is gone and there are no real totalitarian empires to be fearful of, human rights topic turned into a convenient talking point people use to raise their political score - but, more often than not, that (talking) is where the initiative ends.

The problem is that forcibly imposing a value system on a foreign culture has pretty much never worked in the history of mankind. A lot of people living in these oppressive regimes are fully aware of how fucked up their own society is, however they are even more hostile toward Western influences because they know what a terrible track record the West has when it comes to "well-intentioned" interventions. So what you have is that people are trying to look for a way to reform the system from within while staying true to their own values and culture rather than simply copying Western ideas, something which of course sounds amazing but is virtually impossible given how interconnected the world has become.

And yeah there are lots of Westerners who are genuinely concerned about third world problems and eager to help, but even with the best intentions, there's a thin line between condescension and patronization, and most people can't help but swing back and forth between the two. I just feel like the general attitude from most of these countries is that they don't want us to interfere, not because our intentions aren't genuine, but because we don't really understand their problems and can't do anything to really help anyone except to make ourselves feel better.

[GreenJesus]

Nothing is unacceptable for cancerous capitalism.
China is a capitalist's wet dream, it's not a coincidence that every country with poor to none human/worker rights are best buds in business with USA.

Although if I were a business owner with operations in China I would be worried about the Chinese government potentially seizing the factory, copying your technology, and then producing it themselves. No copyright laws, no human rights laws, a communist government.

[Xarkan]

Where are you when North Koreans get imprisoned after getting catched watching South Korean TV? Nowhere to be seen, hypocrite.

There are countries that do not object against North Korea?

- - - Updated - - -

Good, now if those countries want to be take seriously they would not trade so much with China.
High horse OP like usual.

Sweden is on a high horse here? :P (i believe Sweden is one of the countries)

[Bakis]

There are countries that do not object against North Korea?

- - - Updated - - -



Sweden is on a high horse here? :P (i believe Sweden is one of the countries)

All of the ones should do it but none does.

[Deleted]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle34346186/

Great to see. I think no matter who we are, we can support this action of supporting human rights. Enough is enough. Torture is unacceptable!

Do u tell the US the same thing?

- - - Updated - - -

Although if I were a business owner with operations in China I would be worried about the Chinese government potentially seizing the factory, copying your technology, and then producing it themselves. No copyright laws, no human rights laws, a communist government.

They are not n never were communist.

[GreenJesus]

Do u tell the US the same thing?

- - - Updated - - -



They are not n never were communist.

are you high??? China.. never communist??

[turboether]

Saying "Torture is wrong. Bad China, bad!" hardly is going to stop mass torture and execution of dissidents, don't you think?

Maybe if you ask them really nicely.

[Deleted]

Show your support by sanctioning all Chinese made electronics. No more iPhones for Canada! No more construction tools, no more medical equipment, no more cameras.

I'm sure Canadians will support it. Morals are more important than some cheap electronics, right? Right????

[Keosen]

Although if I were a business owner with operations in China I would be worried about the Chinese government potentially seizing the factory, copying your technology, and then producing it themselves. No copyright laws, no human rights laws, a communist government.

You have such a deep knowledge regarding communism. Yes you do.

[Venant]

They keep talking about it, and yet the level of interaction with China increases, and the human right issues get unpunished - just like with Saudi Arabia. If the governments really cared about the human rights issues in China and were open and honest about it, they would recognize Taiwan, impose heavy sanctions on China for human rights violations and financially support the Chinese dissidents.

Still, I guess, it is better to make statements like this, than do nothing at all...

Actually it is FAR FAR FAR worse to create a situation where your actual policy endorses such crimes while your rhetoric says otherwise, because it creates a complacent populace where the policy will never change because there will be no mass public opposition to it.

[Deleted]

are you high??? China.. never communist??

You think having red n yellow flag makes u communist?

[Tackhisis]

I doubt Chinese will take a notice unless San Marino signs it too.

[stomination]

Saying "Torture is wrong. Bad China, bad!" hardly is going to stop mass torture and execution of dissidents, don't you think?

Pretty much being this is a yearly thing now. A lot of words but no real action.

[Deleted]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle34346186/

Great to see. I think no matter who we are, we can support this action of supporting human rights. Enough is enough. Torture is unacceptable!

It is a policy that those on the signatory list should be supporting, against those fake lawyers that want to destabilize the country while raking in as much money for themselves.

[May90]

The problem is that forcibly imposing a value system on a foreign culture has pretty much never worked in the history of mankind. A lot of people living in these oppressive regimes are fully aware of how fucked up their own society is, however they are even more hostile toward Western influences because they know what a terrible track record the West has when it comes to "well-intentioned" interventions. So what you have is that people are trying to look for a way to reform the system from within while staying true to their own values and culture rather than simply copying Western ideas, something which of course sounds amazing but is virtually impossible given how interconnected the world has become.

And yeah there are lots of Westerners who are genuinely concerned about third world problems and eager to help, but even with the best intentions, there's a thin line between condescension and patronization, and most people can't help but swing back and forth between the two. I just feel like the general attitude from most of these countries is that they don't want us to interfere, not because our intentions aren't genuine, but because we don't really understand their problems and can't do anything to really help anyone except to make ourselves feel better.

It has worked many times though, when it was done intelligently. Not just "Veni. Vidi. Vici. Now you are civilized, friends!!!", but with the actual plans to urge and to assist another country with democratic transition. It worked with Japan, with Korea, with West Germany, with a few Latin American countries... It even, again, to an extent, worked with Soviet Union: arguably, had the US government not interfered in early 90-s with harsh demands on stopping human rights violations, Russia would be in a much more sinister state now.

People should realize that, while different cultures have different traditions and different political leanings, there are universal values such as human rights and equality that should always be pushed, because they make the life of the entire society happier. Women in Iran wear hijabs not just because it is their culture, but also because the law demands it; no one will lose anything by those restrictions lifted, so those who wear hijabs because of their culture can still do it, and those that do not want to do it have a free choice in the matter.

Most Chinese dissidents, I'm sure, wouldn't mind the US demanding the Chinese government to take a stronger stance against human rights violations. The majority of people would take it as unjustified interference in Chinese matters, because of propaganda and traditionalist way of thinking - but it is the minority that fights for everyone's rights that always defined in what direction the society is moving, and it is worth supporting. But, again, talking about these matters endlessly, arguing from the position of moral superiority, and, at the same time, barely doing anything is hardly going to win a lot of extra allies in China.