Arena ruined PvP

[Saberstrike]

It wasn't balanced, no; But arena -- in a larger picture of things along with increased design focus on funneling people into raids and 'raids' (lfr) -- was responsible for the way classes were reduced to what we see today, with a landslide of other consequences from 'item squishing' to 'pruning'.

There's little nuance to arenas, leading to dull class design. And if you're claiming 'skill', well... No. It's been debunked numerous times in the thread, chain-cc and pillars isn't skill. It isn't fun, either. And if all you have to say for why you disagree is 'well u suck get gud' -- I don't think you're winning this argument. And it's not like arenas are going away. All I want is for duels / larger-scale pvp to feel less like a messy afterthought. And unfortunately 'balancing around 3v3' is not entirely compatible with that.

[Constraint]

Alterac Valley is the very thing you describe Arenas as.
Players are what ruin battlegrounds as far as lack of objective chasing goes, because they view the scoreboard and humping damage meters as more important than actually winning.
Because that winning may involve doing things which don't favour their simplistic measures of superiority.

"I got more kills than you" - yes, but you did it by ganking in the middle while we lost our flag and the game.
"But so what, I still got more than you."

Try asking in a random battleground when you want people to actually participate and not screw around.
That will speak volumes about the real issues.

That's entirely irrelevant, unfortunately. It sounds great on paper, but other than RBGs, which virtually no-one plays, despite their attempts to encourage people to do so, you're playing with randoms.

So.

Do you want to spend the next 10 years of your life attempting to train randoms who don't give a flying fuck what you're saying, who you will almost never again see in a BG, and who will most likely never remember you said anything to them, in the ways more pure?

People will always gravitate to the path of least resistance. Game designers need to design content with this in mind. Blizzard, on the most part, does not. All too often, they create one way that ends up being the easiest/quickest/most rewarding, and then blindly presume that's what players want and love.

[MrPaladinGuy]

Paladins getting Crusader Strike was the catalyst for all of it.

Then arenas solidified that fate.

[Constraint]

It wasn't balanced, no; But arena -- in a larger picture of things along with increased design focus on funneling people into raids and 'raids' (lfr) -- was responsible for the way classes were reduced to what we see today, with a landslide of other consequences from 'item squishing' to 'pruning'.

There's little nuance to arenas, leading to dull class design. And if you're claiming 'skill', well... No. It's been debunked numerous times in the thread, chain-cc and pillars isn't skill. It isn't fun, either. And if all you have to say for why you disagree is 'well u suck get gud' -- I don't think you're winning this argument. And it's not like arenas are going away. All I want is for duels / larger-scale pvp to feel less like a messy afterthought. And unfortunately 'balancing around 3v3' is not entirely compatible with that.

You have some merit to your argument actually. Before arenas, and I have no idea whether or not arenas were the primary catalyst, classes for the most part had very specific niches. Frost Mages were CC kings. Rogues were disruptors. Warriors with healbots were juggernauts. Enh Shamans were 1-shot bullies. Etc etc.

After arenas were out for a while, it seemed like everyone had to have a little piece of everything. All melee needed a similar interrupt. Everyone needed a stun/mes. Everyone needed x% defensive/gap-closer/gap-opener. And things just became.. so very similar.

Now, some people think that's for the best, but I certainly don't. Perfect balance for the sake of balance is boring, almost by definition, if you think about it.

[Sliske]

Arena ruined the fun of pvp for me.

The fun of pvp, for me (and many others prior to WoD, especially during wotlk) was taking my raid gear (or even dungeon gear) into bgs and arena and farming people.

I still remember fighting a mirror War/RSham both identical talents, only we were two plebs with only 2k exp, they both had rank 1 titles on. Losing the entire game, suddenly while im at 20% hp my Gurthalak spawns 3 tentacles and we just instantly win. Yeah, i understand why that had to go for balance, but with it went the fun. Sure - it wasn't fun for that warrior, but it wasn't like he hadn't done it, either. He had a 416 ilvl gurthalak, i had a lowly 390 one.

Other things - cunning of the cruel, shadowmourne, dragonwrath, deathbringers will - the ability to equip two high mastery trinkets as a fury warrior, pop all cds and get something like +80% dmg during enrage and delete people.

The other way arena ruined pvp for me was in class balance. Prior to MoP, it was pretty accepted that: Melee have good sustain ST, and have a lot of instant CC, but can be kited. Ranged are the dotters or the very high burst, and have a lot of spammable CC, they're also generally squishy.

Then MoP comes along. Now we see casters that are much, much tankier than most melee (warlocks, spriests, boomkins), casters with much more mobility than most melee (mages) and casters with much more instant CC than any melee (mages, ele shamans)

Yes, in Arena this suits, but everywhere else it created this toxic byproduct: melee being trash in BGs, unless accompanied by several dispellers.

[A dot Ham]

"PvP Game" is not a genre. Shooters are a genre, MOBAs are a genre. RTS is a genre. Yes, you compete with other players in all of those types of games, but other than that, those different genres have NOTHING IN COMMON AT ALL.

You're trying to compare Apples to Cinderblocks.

They're all PvP games... all games that aren't long and drawn out. The moments of action are quick and if you blink you miss them. Watching/playing arena... is like Nascar the moments of change are a few and far between. Hours of round and round with noting of consequence happening until... BAM!

Actually... no. As a guy who studies HEMA and has been re-enacting and doing full-contact LARPing for 25 years... no. Fights did NOT last a long time. a 30-60 second fight was quite lengthy. A lot of fights between unarmored opponents lasted seconds. The moment one person puts their weapon even a centimeter out of position, its over. You dont take wounds, you get killed.

Armored fighting is completely different, as most armors of any particular period were basically completely effective against the weapons of the day. A properly made riveted maile shirt basically makes your torso/arms/upper thighs invulnerable to most weapons of the day. Throw a brigandine over it and you're basically invulnerable to weapons all the way up to guns, and itll probably still save your life (if not protect you from all injury) even against all but the most modern of rifles.

So.. TLDR, your analogy is horribly flawed.

Okay so I'm right... arena is not fun... nor is it an accurate depiction of a coliseum-esque fight. Arena is a bastardization of everything we know to be fun, entertaining, or accurate in regards to a life or death test of skill and strength.

/mic

[RelaZ]

Only bad players who aren't good at PvP think Arena destroyed PvP. Arena only helped PvP get better (or all PvPers would have quit years ago because spamming BGs gets boring). In reality PvE and casualized class design (intended to make casual PvE fun) is what has ruined PvP.

A broad majority of those who like PvP (no, not the "I liked AV back in the day, arena ruined it"-nostalgia goggles people who wouldn't do more than 1 AV a month even if they restored it) agrees BGs/wPvP is troll and Arena is where the skill and most of the fun is at. Almost everyone in the PvP scene is looking to get into/progress in arenas, that's just the way it is: because arenas is what PvPers want to play. Sadly Blizzard destroyed class design so much these last two expansions that almost all PvPers already left.

[Deleted]

I don't think that the arenas are the problem.

[Kagthul]

Only bad players who aren't good at PvP think Arena destroyed PvP. Arena only helped PvP get better (or all PvPers would have quit years ago because spamming BGs gets boring). In reality PvE and casualized class design (intended to make casual PvE fun) is what has ruined PvP.

A broad majority of those who like PvP (no, not the "I liked AV back in the day, arena ruined it"-nostalgia goggles people who wouldn't do more than 1 AV a month even if they restored it) agrees BGs/wPvP is troll and Arena is where the skill and most of the fun is at. Almost everyone in the PvP scene is looking to get into/progress in arenas, that's just the way it is: because arenas is what PvPers want to play. Sadly Blizzard destroyed class design so much these last two expansions that almost all PvPers already left.

Oh look, a completely anecdotal argument with no facts or stats to back it up.

There's a word for that.

It's called an opinion.

Wether you like it or not, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people who PvPed regularly at end game NEVER did Arenas.

[RelaZ]

Oh look, a completely anecdotal argument with no facts or stats to back it up.

There's a word for that.

It's called an opinion.

The difference is I give reasoning and logic for my arguments. And no they're not anecdotal, they're obvious truths. If you want more clarity as to how any of the things I pointed out feel free to ask about specific points.

Wether you like it or not, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people who PvPed regularly at end game NEVER did Arenas.

So where's your source then?

All I see is you miss-interpreting the statistics released in some fucked up way that somehow makes it out to that most regular PvPers (not the "I do 1 bg every other week when I'm drunk lol" people) prefer sticking to BGs instead of moving on to end-game content (RBGs/Arenas). That would be akin to believing most PvErs stick to heroic dungeons instead of moving on to raiding once they're geared. It's simply rediculous to believe that to be true. And if you can't see that with your own eyes and just whiff it away as "anecdotal" then jeez I don't know how blind you can get.

I stick to my original assesment: BGs are a means to an end for most "regular" PvPers. Because most actual PvPers want to get to the real end-game. The same way most PvErs want to raid.

[cqwrteur]

Delete arena and lfr!

Don't want gears matter? PVP templates! Next step is PVE templates I guess?

[Deleted]

I don't mind arenas as an activity within the game but they sure reek of the whole "esport" bullshit. I think tryhard mentality and dick wavering contest should have no place in an MMORPG and pvp should rather be something in the open world, much like outdoors pvp but with actual content to have fun. For example conquering land, siege battles, wide scale events with NPCs sending small armies to attack capital cities with help from players and good rewards,etc....

Arena has always been a quite shallow experience of pvp. Its like people don't understand how much more pvp can be. The League of Legends mindset is really toxic for game designs

- - - Updated - - -

Only bad players who aren't good at PvP think Arena destroyed PvP. Arena only helped PvP get better (or all PvPers would have quit years ago because spamming BGs gets boring). In reality PvE and casualized class design (intended to make casual PvE fun) is what has ruined PvP.

A broad majority of those who like PvP (no, not the "I liked AV back in the day, arena ruined it"-nostalgia goggles people who wouldn't do more than 1 AV a month even if they restored it) agrees BGs/wPvP is troll and Arena is where the skill and most of the fun is at. Almost everyone in the PvP scene is looking to get into/progress in arenas, that's just the way it is: because arenas is what PvPers want to play. Sadly Blizzard destroyed class design so much these last two expansions that almost all PvPers already left.

You see thats the problem, its always about this "skill" bullshit and dick contests. Nobody gives a shit whether you are good at coordinating CC or having a good rating. Nobody cares about other peoples achievements. This is a massively multiplayer game, the achievements are done at the wide scale of hundreds of people, not one or two person being locked into an instanced duel for zero glory. Would you rather the game implement actual dynamic pvp events in the game and make the game actually fun or do you prefer to do the same unbalanced (because thats a fact) arena over and over again, mashing the same buttons just to see someone's healthpool go to 100% to 0%? How is that fun in the long run? Its not, its just like mythic +, people feel compelled to do this because "end game" and to feel accomplishment. Too bad its all empty in the end.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think that arena ruined pvp.

I think Blizz's insistence on it being the pinnacle of pvp is the real problem.

What they should do is push the focus to rbg's. Really expand and promote the feature. Maybe have heralds call out and have teams form to battle at flashpoints (for extra rewards, etc). Push it over to world pvp. Have pvp style scenarios one team v another to take over a town (like the crossroads for instance). Have each team battle each other through the scenario. Make meta achieves with world pvp as the focus and have those grant nice rewards and rating.

Just think about it for a minute. When you think of "the world engulfed by war; alliance v horde" do you think of two teams of five battling it out in an arena?

It is just totally ridiculous that blizzard promotes that as the pinnacle of pvp, give me a break.

I totally agree. But you have to bear in mind that the majority of the WoW playerbase has no experience of the MMORPG genre before WoW so they don't know anything other than the Blizzard design and the games copying WoW.

I think that less than 5% of the playerbase actually care about the lore, the roleplay and the story elements of the game. Most just want to see big numbers everywhere and huge armors to wear like any random hack n slash game.

[Saberstrike]

I think that less than 5% of the playerbase actually care about the lore, the roleplay and the story elements of the game. Most just want to see big numbers everywhere and huge armors to wear like any random hack n slash game.

I do believe less than 2% of players genuinely care about tryhard 3v3, making it LESS desirable than 'that gay RP shiz' tryhards like to bash on so much. You're right, though. Competitive PvP participation happens to be at an all-time low now that you can realistically titanforge gear from random BGs / WQs to be BIS. You know why that is? It's because most people only played arena because it rewarded the best gear, not because it was actually fun. It was an endless circle of misery where in order to have fun in PvP (duels, BGs, 2v2) you need to do 3v3 arena, to get gear, to be competitive everywhere else.

Now that it's no longer the case we can see how much of a train-wreck the arena system truly was. Again, if you like it -- I'm not here to say they should be deleted. They should remain as -A- thing to do. But they should remain just that. A thing. One of many.

[Deleted]

I don't think arena ruined pvp what ruined pvp is the gear. Since wod pvp gear is litteraly shit and useless I mean today to get gear you have to do WQ and BG/Arena and be lucky but since attributes are scaled in BG pvp gear is useless only weapon matter.
They wanted to do something balanced so new players don't get destroyed in BG, why not but we are losing all fun now it was fun to see his character getting better when we bought a new piece of gear, it was fun when we could finally destroy lowbies too...Now we can't really unless you're playing DH.
They said BG would be more balanced with this system this is completely false since legion 98% of battleground score is 3-0 or 1500-550...in every bg final score gap is huge it is even more huge than it was before because yes before new people felt useless but geared people could try doing something now if you don't have a good team you know you lose.
If bg queue went from less than 1 minute to 5 even 10 minutes it's because of this we are not getting anymore fun games in battlegrounds.

I'm not playing on US servers so I can't send feedback(it will not be read in EU) but you US players pls tell blizzard to bring back pvp gear because it was the true fun in BG.

[Lex Icon]

I don't think arena ruined pvp what ruined pvp is the gear. Since wod pvp gear is litteraly shit and useless I mean today to get gear you have to do WQ and BG/Arena and be lucky but since attributes are scaled in BG pvp gear is useless only weapon matter.
They wanted to do something balanced so new players don't get destroyed in BG, why not but we are losing all fun now it was fun to see his character getting better when we bought a new piece of gear, it was fun when we could finally destroy lowbies too...Now we can't really unless you're playing DH.
They said BG would be more balanced with this system this is completely false since legion 98% of battleground score is 3-0 or 1500-550...in every bg final score gap is huge it is even more huge than it was before because yes before new people felt useless but geared people could try doing something now if you don't have a good team you know you lose.
If bg queue went from less than 1 minute to 5 even 10 minutes it's because of this we are not getting anymore fun games in battlegrounds.

I'm not playing on US servers so I can't send feedback(it will not be read in EU) but you US players pls tell blizzard to bring back pvp gear because it was the true fun in BG.

i disagree.

[inkberry]

"Arena ruined pvp"

As if anything else could actually be considered pvp and not mongofest.

[Tic Tacs]

Personally, I think it went downwards in terms of PvP back in MoP with all the CC and it continues to this day, whoever is in charge isn't doing a great job.

[Stormspellz]

Personally, I think it went downwards in terms of PvP back in MoP with all the CC and it continues to this day, whoever is in charge isn't doing a great job.

What opened the the flood gates for pvp going down hill was the 3.0 change of taking melee interrupts off global, from there you had "streamlined" rotations ie dumbed down, nuke+cc combo's, and of course pruning of today.

[Mafic]

Interupts need cool down increases across the board. Ghostcrawler is no longer around to justify this.

[Kokolums]

I got disinterested in arena when I realized just how awful most people are at PvP. I would join an arena team, sit on the bench while the leaders try to organize everything with their best guys and they would win like 1-2 games out of 10. Then I'd step in and reorganize the group with the same people and we'd destroy 10 teams in a row and I had garbage gear. After that happened enough times I was kinda turned off. It was astounding to me how horrible PvP is in arena. People have no clue what to do. I haven't played arena in years tho so maybe it got better. I played arena in BC and Wrath.

I hang out in battlegrounds and ruin the other team's day lol.