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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Crruor View Post
    To repeat myself forever, class design ruined pvp. And only class design.

    If class design is great pvp is great (as its the only thing that matters for pvp), if its dumb pvp is bad. The end.


    Take wod, best gearing system in forever (bar ignoreable ashran), amazing QoL changes (including those from mop) all around i.e catchup conquest, no pve gear in pvp, personal rating and so on. But the expansion still wasnt good pvp wise, just because classes werent fun.

    Woltk had a horrible horrible pvp system but it was(/is on private servers) fun because the classes are well made, same with cata, despite the endless need for pve gear and total BS gear system (you were forced to pve, there were no good pvp trinket, bar the actual trinket). Mop imo hit the sweet spot in s14/15 of good gearing and catchup system with fun class design while maintaining some depths with reforging and professions.

    But ultimately its only class design that matters!
    This.

    And to everyone claiming the current retarded class design is due to "muh e-sports". You are wrong, and stupid. Top e-sporters (and basically the entire competitive community with them) were completely against WoD and Legion class design. It's the PvErs & devs nostalgic love for TBC and unskilled PvP that got us here.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Crruor View Post
    To repeat myself forever, class design ruined pvp. And only class design.

    If class design is great pvp is great (as its the only thing that matters for pvp), if its dumb pvp is bad. The end.

    Take wod, best gearing system in forever (bar ignoreable ashran), amazing QoL changes (including those from mop) all around i.e catchup conquest, no pve gear in pvp, personal rating and so on. But the expansion still wasnt good pvp wise, just because classes werent fun.
    I disagree that WoD "wasn't good pvp wise". Or, rather, I am fine with you not liking it (and I don't like it much either, to me it was a step down from MoP although not catastrophic), but if we are talking about why PVP collapsed in terms of participation, then we are talking about the definition of "good" that coincides with the definition of "popular". And WoD PVP was plenty popular. There was a decline in the number of players because it was everywhere, the expansion was crap. But PVP didn't decline faster than the game overall, in fact it held up slightly better than the rest of the game.

    Class design obviously plays a big role in how popular PVP is. But there are two other factors in Legion that are more significant:

    1. No PVP gear. The cycle of "I PVP -> I get PVP gear -> this gear is best PVP gear in the game and it helps me PVP more than if I were doing something else" broken. One has to PVE, etc.

    2. The part where one has to PVE is incredibly grindy. And for all practical purposes, infinite.

    If they only redesigned classes and kept the rest of the system where it is, we'd have the usual case of PVP getting worse than before, but not to the point where it collapses and loses all blood in a matter of months in a big disaster. It's because of the two things above that the disaster happened. Conversely, if they didn't touch classes and only did the two things above, we'd be in the same place we are now and nothing would have saved PVP, neither grounding totems nor their stupid esport initiative with which they woke up 5-8 years late.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RelaZ View Post
    And to everyone claiming the current retarded class design is due to "muh e-sports". You are wrong, and stupid. Top e-sporters (and basically the entire competitive community with them) were completely against WoD and Legion class design.
    I could care less about "they pruned abilities because of the e-sports" argument, but it's not what you are replying to above at all. You seem to think that the argument is "they pruned abilities because top PVPers asked them to do so, so that they can do e-sports". It's not that. What people are saying is "they pruned abilities because they thought the game would then be better suited to be e-sports". As in, more understandable and more watchable. Whether this is the case or not, I don't care, but you are replying to something completely bizarre and made up.

    It is rather telling that you can't make two posts without another loud bla bla bla that happens because you misunderstood or misread something once again. Perhaps you are just dumb. Or maybe you are posting drunk, I don't know.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I disagree that WoD "wasn't good pvp wise". Or, rather, I am fine with you not liking it (and I don't like it much either, to me it was a step down from MoP although not catastrophic), but if we are talking about why PVP collapsed in terms of participation, then we are talking about the definition of "good" that coincides with the definition of "popular". And WoD PVP was plenty popular. There was a decline in the number of players because it was everywhere, the expansion was crap. But PVP didn't decline faster than the game overall, in fact it held up slightly better than the rest of the game.

    Class design obviously plays a big role in how popular PVP is. But there are two other factors in Legion that are more significant:

    1. No PVP gear. The cycle of "I PVP -> I get PVP gear -> this gear is best PVP gear in the game and it helps me PVP more than if I were doing something else" broken. One has to PVE, etc.

    2. The part where one has to PVE is incredibly grindy. And for all practical purposes, infinite.

    If they only redesigned classes and kept the rest of the system where it is, we'd have the usual case of PVP getting worse than before, but not to the point where it collapses and loses all blood in a matter of months in a big disaster. It's because of the two things above that the disaster happened. Conversely, if they didn't touch classes and only did the two things above, we'd be in the same place we are now and nothing would have saved PVP, neither grounding totems nor their stupid esport initiative with which they woke up 5-8 years late.
    I disagree, i think ultimately people pvp for fun. No gear is a loss of the rpg element and the grind is annoying (albeit far less then what you had in older expansions) but pvp itself isnt fun to a lot of people which is a lot more important.

    I agree that the pvp gear system of honour and conquest/arena points needs to come back (and ideall in a wod-esque way) as it was extremely important to the character progression which drives a lot of people. Getting new gear which makes your abilities hit harder is fun (compared to the you now do 0.2% more damage), however stuff like MM hunters in wod will still be shit no matter how much you progess. It also got people into pvp because they wanted the gear for pve. But class design is what matters, the arena-tournament realm is still active, pvp servers for woltk in general are very populated - despite 0 character progression, if the pvp is fun people will play it.

  4. #304
    ^^ This all makes sense and maybe you are right, but let me elaborate a bit more about why I think other factors I mentioned are bigger issues for Legion than class design.

    First off, obviously, one can make classes so crap that your point will be true. If they replaced all class abilities with literally just one - "damage" for damage dealers / "heal" for healers - yes, nobody would play that crap and nothing else would matter. I am simply arguing that Legion is far from that point where the design is so broken, nothing else matters. They made it worse, yes, sure, tons worse. But for the majority of people (= low-rated / unrated, not dissing anyone, just saying that the majority, by definition of the rating system, is low-rated), it is not bad enough to just unsub on the spot.

    Here is my one argument in terms of class design not mattering too much - we had worse. Vanilla classes were weird and fun, but if they put them up now, we'd say they were downright terrible. Worse than Legion. They were too unbalanced, many abilities pointless and never used, several abilities overpowered like hell, many specs and entire classes not being able to ever PVP because they are just being roflstomped by others, RNG from procs that nobody can control or play around out the wazoo (this was the entire reason for some specs to appear on a BG), etc.

    Here is my other argument - you are saying that arena tournament realms are still active, but why that is the case? Because there is no doing PVE to do PVP, and no grind in doing that which eats all the effing time and leaves you no time to PVP. You just log in and you PVP. You say it's class design, and it might be that, too, but please imagine that arena tournament realms add artifacts and make everyone grind for it like Legion does. How long they will live after that? Not very long, in my opinion. People will just shrug and move on, because who needs this crap, you just want to PVP.

    Time will tell, I guess.

  5. #305
    Bring back the old system where you got PvP gear. I liked starting out pvping and getting better gear and feel stronger and stronger. It was some sort of Visual progression. I have played since classic and I would always have a pvp set farmed out, even though im in no way a very good pvper.

    Now I dont feel im getting anything.

    Sidenote: I would love if they brought back this into PvE also With Conquest/valor Points. I liked that system alot

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I could care less about "they pruned abilities because of the e-sports" argument, but it's not what you are replying to above at all. You seem to think that the argument is "they pruned abilities because top PVPers asked them to do so, so that they can do e-sports". It's not that. What people are saying is "they pruned abilities because they thought the game would then be better suited to be e-sports". As in, more understandable and more watchable. Whether this is the case or not, I don't care, but you are replying to something completely bizarre and made up.

    It is rather telling that you can't make two posts without another loud bla bla bla that happens because you misunderstood or misread something once again. Perhaps you are just dumb. Or maybe you are posting drunk, I don't know.
    Not that that was the point I was making but okay, it's not bizarre - many people believe this. Just because you don't doesn't mean others don't. Also I didn't reply directly to their discussion, that's why I aimed it at anyone who thinks the current class design is because of e-sports. Maybe you're the one who missunderstood or misread, seeing as you're saying "you're not arguing the point you're arguing". You couldn't even tell who the post was directed at, nor could you understand what I ment with the post.

    But I'll rephrase just for you:

    The chance of Blizzard having done any of the pruning for reasons related to e-sports is zero. They are not related. Not in the slighest.

    > make changes that kills of competitive PvP (viewerbase & players) against the suggestions of almost the entire competitive PvP community
    > "but guys its more watchable"

    Regardless of what anyone thinks of the Blizzard PvP department they're not that stupid, they realize WoW e-sports is a very minor income and that PvP playability and like-ability is far more important than e-sports watchability.

    The problem is Blizzard doesn't care about what PvPers think of PvP and instead choose to design PvP after what PvErs feel is good PvP.
    Last edited by RelaZ; 2017-07-14 at 02:20 PM.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    first: all the good players are actually playing arenas..

    second: in arenas you have to actually use your abilities the way u supposed to use them, not spam them constantly.. basically no aoe bullshit.. in most rbgs(on HIGH level.. high like super high) you dont even use you cc like at all you just do dps.. other than that all the other parts of pvp take zero skill(even duels nowadays are just braindead)

    majority of macroses(targeting etc.) arent even being used in more than 5v5 pvp(there are no binds for them either) majority of macroses arent used either etc.


    well you probably never played arenas above even 2k.. all you do is probably que random bgs all day rofl
    You spew all this random bullshit and then you tell the guy he aint been 2k arena.

    First of all let me tell you pillar humping aint skill mate. Been there done that and I have the gladiator titles to show how good I hug/hump/fuck the pillars.

    Secondly, fotm build of the month in arena doesn't mean shit regarding skill.

    And finally: What kind of scrub pug RBG trash no VOIP games did you play that you claim its all zerg? There is so much CC during an RBG it would blow your mind. Far more than the pillar kiting/hugging/fucking bullshit where you just pop out blind and back to hugging the pillars again.

    Seriously I know you have the desperate need to get some attention but spamming inaccuracies and bellittling games where you probably failed doesn't mean anything but that you failed.

    And sorry if you take an offense but seriously RBG > arena and RBG is the actual way pvp was meant to be. Arena is just for fotm rerollers and people selling carries for real money.

  8. #308
    Bloodsail Admiral Krassz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    You spew all this random bullshit and then you tell the guy he aint been 2k arena.

    First of all let me tell you pillar humping aint skill mate. Been there done that and I have the gladiator titles to show how good I hug/hump/fuck the pillars.

    Secondly, fotm build of the month in arena doesn't mean shit regarding skill.

    And finally: What kind of scrub pug RBG trash no VOIP games did you play that you claim its all zerg? There is so much CC during an RBG it would blow your mind. Far more than the pillar kiting/hugging/fucking bullshit where you just pop out blind and back to hugging the pillars again.

    Seriously I know you have the desperate need to get some attention but spamming inaccuracies and bellittling games where you probably failed doesn't mean anything but that you failed.

    And sorry if you take an offense but seriously RBG > arena and RBG is the actual way pvp was meant to be. Arena is just for fotm rerollers and people selling carries for real money.
    RBGs are a joke. I find them more enjoyable, but I would never claim they "took more skill" than arena to be good at.

    Sincerely,

    Someone that only plays RBGs.
    Last edited by Krassz; 2017-07-14 at 02:44 PM.

  9. #309
    The #1 offender of pvp in wow is flavor of the month. No casual wants to level and gear a toon for pvp when they can just get nerfed and stay that way for years. It is left to the hardcore crowd to pvp as a result. This issue is mitigated in raiding by having large raids of people. If serious pve was limited to 3v3 or just 5 mans, youd start to run into the same problems with fotm. Interestingly, this newfound dev obsession with mythic plus theatens to actually create the exact same FotM issue in pve and no one even notices it. If blizzard starts creating serious M+ tournaments for cash, certain specs and classes will rapidly fall out of favor and those players will get left behind and quit most likely.

    People will respond to m+ tourneys by saying "i need to practice with ONLY perfect 5 man mythic comps, sorry youve got the wrong class and spec so i am justified in kicking you". That will then evolve into anyone not playing the perfect class & spec for m+ just getting called losers.

  10. #310
    Heres the problem with pvp. I havent done pvp in years. I was watching sodapoppin on twitch and hes playing feral arena pvp. Hes enthusiastic about it and having some success and its infectious. He explains his strategy in a clear manner. This is perfect to draw new players into arena. It gives me a foothold to try some initial strats out. I have a 110 druid so i dont even need to level him. I start to plan on doing arena for the first time in years just because of what soda is doing.

    The next thing i see on mmo champ is blizz has announced some MASSIVE overhaul to feral. I immediately give up because ive just been hit with the FotM issue again. I didnt even read the notes much, all i know is they are overhauling the class and spec soda has been promoting so i just wasted my time. They just viciously murdered my enthusiasm. I wont arena now.

    Its like you have soda promoting and selling people on arena and blizzard coming in and killing it immediately.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstrike View Post
    Arenas ruined PvP. It's an unpopular opinion and I can almost feel the rage boiling, but let me explain:

    When you think about RPG battles, what do you imagine? Most likely something like WSG, AB or AV -- A battleground. With objectives. Not just a deathmatch in a small room full of pillars. Now, deathmatch has it's time and it's place, and I'm not here to say it should completely disappear. However, I do think ranked WoW PvP -- and arenas -- needs to evolve with the times.

    The problems that come from PvP being reduced to a glorified deathmatch are numerous -- the neverending 'melee vs ranged' debate that in my opinion shouldn't even be a debate. Melee is meant to win in a straight up 1v1 -always- against a ranged due to ranged role in any rpg being a backline high-burst damage character; 2nd problem is this endless arms race of cc / mobility / damage. Hp bloating. Various (failed) resilience experiments to offset the former. Etc., etc. -- All that stems from inherently broken 'deathmatch' arena system that shouldn't have been a benchmark for balance in a game like WoW in the first place.

    How can we fix it? Well; For example, they could ape GW2 and bring back a 5v5 bracket with smaller maps that have 3 control points. It'll be a smaller scale tactical engagement with mandatory rotations and generally more objective focused gameplay. Or hell it could even be a 3v3 with 2 points, where you respawn if you die but the time to control points is much shorter than in BGs (think need 200 points to win instead of 1500).

    It'd make for a much more pleasant niche than RBGs (when I quit a few months back I didn't have 2 people to PvP with, let alone 9...), and it'll be much more e-sports friendly than -- and let's be honest here -- dead on arrival concept of arenas as they are now.
    I have been telling you guys for YEARS that doing only arena wasn't good lol!!!

    Why do you think I have had such an aversion to doing it???

    Is it any wonder that I am 1v2+ing the r1s, since doing arena so much isn't good for them???
    Last edited by MagusHenosis; 2017-07-15 at 11:06 PM.
    Haters gonna hate, whatcha gonna do?

    They're haters after all, it's what they do!

  12. #312
    this thread ruined pvp

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Dankdruid View Post
    this thread ruined pvp
    Scary truths in here Druid!!!

    Beware!!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstrike View Post
    That's a big part of why smaller-scale format (3v3 / 5v5) will work much better for organized objective-based PvP. You could bring people interested in playing objectives, without also having to carry 5-35 other people you had the misfortune of getting queued with.

    I feel it's why MOBAs / overwatch work so well.



    It's more that I want WoW PvP to feel less like it's stuck in 2007. I do play mobas. I did not play WoW for a while now. I would like to play WoW again but right now as a PvPer it's such a chore I just cannot be arsed. ;/ -- mainly because I can't ever find enough people to play with, leading me to believe I'm not alone in thinking the whole thing just needs a major overhaul.
    The 6 man brawl could have mostly just been so that Blizzard can test how bgs work with less people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    The next thing i see on mmo champ is blizz has announced some MASSIVE overhaul to feral. I immediately give up because ive just been hit with the FotM issue again. I didnt even read the notes much, all i know is they are overhauling the class and spec soda has been promoting so i just wasted my time. They just viciously murdered my enthusiasm. I wont arena now.
    It is FAR better to never do arena, than to do it all the time.....
    Haters gonna hate, whatcha gonna do?

    They're haters after all, it's what they do!

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    that still ment pvp was not a master peice, because i would walk in, shadowbolt, shadowbolt, win
    You would also get owned by anyone half decent.

  15. #315
    Elemental Lord FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogslayer View Post
    You would also get owned by anyone half decent.
    lol not reaaaaly

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Krassz View Post
    RBGs are a joke. I find them more enjoyable, but I would never claim they "took more skill" than arena to be good at.

    Sincerely,

    Someone that only plays RBGs.
    Yeah I see now. You said so and put a "signature" under it so it must be true. Thats why we can never have a serious convo in this forum every random internet hero just drops a turd in the threads to create an impression and then flees.

    Im sure you find RBGs "enjoyable" though every random noob we ever carried in an RBG said the same thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MagusHenosis View Post
    The 6 man brawl could have mostly just been so that Blizzard can test how bgs work with less people.
    It is actually a valid reason to do it but hasn't worked well at all. If 1-2 leave they are not replaced so you end up playing 4 vs 6 which is virtually unplayable. Also the whole thing could have used solid queueing instead of 6 squish dps vs a solid team with 2 heals 4 dps setup.

    We havent tried it but I suppose you could queue as 5 man premade for it? So theres the only reason why they wouldnt implement it.

    Seriously there are only 3 ways to fix BGs:

    Make ALL BGs rated.
    Allow full premades.
    Ban botters forever not just 3-6 months. End them.

    Nothing else can help random BGs.

  17. #317
    Banned cqwrteur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Yeah I see now. You said so and put a "signature" under it so it must be true. Thats why we can never have a serious convo in this forum every random internet hero just drops a turd in the threads to create an impression and then flees.

    Im sure you find RBGs "enjoyable" though every random noob we ever carried in an RBG said the same thing.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It is actually a valid reason to do it but hasn't worked well at all. If 1-2 leave they are not replaced so you end up playing 4 vs 6 which is virtually unplayable. Also the whole thing could have used solid queueing instead of 6 squish dps vs a solid team with 2 heals 4 dps setup.

    We havent tried it but I suppose you could queue as 5 man premade for it? So theres the only reason why they wouldnt implement it.

    Seriously there are only 3 ways to fix BGs:

    Make ALL BGs rated.
    Allow full premades.
    Ban botters forever not just 3-6 months. End them.

    Nothing else can help random BGs.
    Your reply is exactly why WoW sucks and has so many bots. Rating = botting. The only way to end bots is to remove all rating and loot from PVP. Don't give people a reason for doing rating.
    PVP rewards you honor for faction, not gear.

    DELETE ARENA like deleting 5v5!
    Last edited by cqwrteur; 2017-07-19 at 12:00 PM.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by cqwrteur View Post
    Your reply is exactly why WoW sucks and has so many bots. Rating = botting. The only way to end bots is to remove all rating and loot from PVP. Don't give people a reason for doing rating.
    PVP rewards you honor for faction, not gear.

    DELETE ARENA like deleting 5v5!
    In this sense lets not raid/farm/pvp because bots will come into play and ruin it.

    How about something shocking:

    We all play for ratings and blizzard does its job and kicks some major ass everytime someone bots. I had a friend banned in vanilla for botting and it was so perm he couldnt even play from the same IP again with a new account. Whatever happened to those days when the game actually promoted fair play. Now all we get is idiots running the Game Master works and just spam sending minor penalties because someone was playing like a wanker and you called him a wanker.

    Blizzard has sacrificed so much to be on the politically correct side and to not lose "loyal" yet botting customers that they fucked every aspect of the game and made most good players leave. Ok if thats what they like sure but Im pretty sure that as a paying model it will soon make wow barely sustainable and not a venture worth upgrading. Already Legion has massive complaints after the original "omg so much better than everything" feel.

    Sooner or later everyone has to face reality: In this case, either fix the problems or lose even more of your good playerbase and scrape the leftovers from botters and random come and go fotm players.

    A bleak future for sure but one that blizzard promotes with their stance.

  19. #319
    Bloodsail Admiral Krassz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Yeah I see now. You said so and put a "signature" under it so it must be true. Thats why we can never have a serious convo in this forum every random internet hero just drops a turd in the threads to create an impression and then flees.

    Im sure you find RBGs "enjoyable" though every random noob we ever carried in an RBG said the same thing.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It is actually a valid reason to do it but hasn't worked well at all. If 1-2 leave they are not replaced so you end up playing 4 vs 6 which is virtually unplayable. Also the whole thing could have used solid queueing instead of 6 squish dps vs a solid team with 2 heals 4 dps setup.

    We havent tried it but I suppose you could queue as 5 man premade for it? So theres the only reason why they wouldnt implement it.

    Seriously there are only 3 ways to fix BGs:

    Make ALL BGs rated.
    Allow full premades.
    Ban botters forever not just 3-6 months. End them.

    Nothing else can help random BGs.
    Funny that, because if you look in my actual forum signature, I have armory links. Got 2600 at the start of mop and have been at least 2300+ every season since (except WoD where I quit, got 2200 at the end of the last season and stopped because it was full of kickbotters) with 2 HOTAs in s15.

    RBGs are a joke, especially on US. Don't get angry.

    Was nearly 2400 last season and I'm probably not going to bother to continue to queue past 2200 this season. Everyone is playing with dodgers, so many people are using lag7, people are kickbotting still, it's a joke.
    Last edited by Krassz; 2017-07-19 at 02:36 PM.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Yeah I see now. You said so and put a "signature" under it so it must be true. Thats why we can never have a serious convo in this forum every random internet hero just drops a turd in the threads to create an impression and then flees.

    Im sure you find RBGs "enjoyable" though every random noob we ever carried in an RBG said the same thing.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It is actually a valid reason to do it but hasn't worked well at all. If 1-2 leave they are not replaced so you end up playing 4 vs 6 which is virtually unplayable. Also the whole thing could have used solid queueing instead of 6 squish dps vs a solid team with 2 heals 4 dps setup.

    We havent tried it but I suppose you could queue as 5 man premade for it? So theres the only reason why they wouldnt implement it.

    Seriously there are only 3 ways to fix BGs:

    Make ALL BGs rated.
    Allow full premades.
    Ban botters forever not just 3-6 months. End them.

    Nothing else can help random BGs.
    The idea of having ALL BGs be rated, and being able to queue solo is really starting to grow on me.

    Your insights into this seem to be spot on to me btw.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Rated PvP is clearly a mess, and making ALL instanced PvP rated (in some form) could be just what the game needs.

    I have been saying a lot lately that normal BGs have become a joke, and I would really like to see that change.
    Haters gonna hate, whatcha gonna do?

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