Universal basic incomes

[Xisa]

UBI is going to become a necessity when we reach a near-total automation state.

UBI won't take off unless it feels fair. That's the devil of all details.

[Deleted]

Again, we've run test programs, and the ONLY groups that worked less, on average, were students and young mothers.

Because both had better things to be focusing on than working for a paycheck. That's a good thing.

A basic income isn't a luxurious living. And any earnings are more money in your pocket. You've got just as much incentive to work, in a UBI system, as you do today, unless you're perfectly happy doing the bare minimum in a minimum-wage job. And really, if that's the case, there just aren't that many people like you.

Test programs? Only students and young mothers? Yeah, sure, Endus
Look at Russia, there is your test programs. What you and your marxist friends want is communism.
Bullshit.

[Endus]

Ethically, I am not a big fan of being dependent on the government to this extent. I'd rather jobs to be paid as much higher as the universal basic income would be, and the government to stay out of people's personal economies.

You're already dependent on the government. And the government will provide welfare and so forth if you're not working. All UBI does is remove the huge amount of administration all those various programs require for applications and management and so forth, and reduces that down to an incredibly simple checkmark. "You're a citizen? Can we get your bank account info for direct deposit, or would you like a check mailed to your home address?"

While it'd be NICE if employers saw their provision of employment as a public service, the simple reality is that employers will often gladly pay people below subsistence wages if they can get away with it. We know this, because we've let them, and they did so; it's not theory. Employers and employees are in a confrontational position, not a cooperative one; they're two sides of a negotiating table, and they're each trying to get the upper hand, with employers holding ALMOST all the cards.

It is also economically harmful on many levels: for example, it skews the pricing completely, as the basic income now becomes a new "null point" and all the prices are going to be adjusted based on the assumption of the person having extra income...

That's not how economics work, like, at all. While prices would likely rise, if you've tied the UBI to cost of living, that's not an issue; it'll adjust. And the rise is more likely to be due to the higher tax burdens than anything else.

I think there are much better ways to improve social security. The government should focus on funding projects improving interaction between the potential employers and the potential employees. Helping people find jobs is economically more sustainable than compensating for their joblessness.

UBI isn't "compensating people for joblessness". It's ensuring a basic level of income so that nobody suffers hardship.

And you can't "help people find jobs" when there ARE no jobs.

Plus, you're ignoring that the increased spending capacity of the poor creates demand, which creates jobs. It's the wealth of the consumers that creates jobs, not the product and service providers. They just serve that consumer demand. If you choke it off by letting the poor struggle in poverty, that just reduces demand, which slows the economy.

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Test programs? Only students and young mothers? Yeah, sure, Endus

Hey, not my fault reality doesn't line up with your ideology; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

Look at Russia, there is your test programs. What you and your marxist friends want is communism.
Bullshit.

Russia, and communism in general, have nothing whatsoever to do with universal basic income systems.

[Macaquerie]

Test programs? Only students and young mothers? Yeah, sure, Endus
Look at Russia, there is your test programs. What you and your marxist friends want is communism.
Bullshit.

I'm not sure you have any idea what Communism is actually like. In the Soviet Union, everyone was expected to work and contribute to society in some way. Of course, given how incredibly unproductive their economy was, there weren't actually all that many meaningful jobs to go around so the government simply made up as many pointless jobs as it needed to in order to keep everyone busy.

If not for UBI, this is ultimately the sort of system that we will end up adopting in order to keep everyone occupied and feeling like they're contributing to society in some way. Arguably, we are already there, given just how many people are working random office jobs of questionable value already. There is no point in creating inefficiencies just because we expect everyone to "earn" their living with meaningless work. At some point it's better just to pay them to stay home.

[Independent voter]

It happened once during history.

Now it's robots, back then it was slaves and I was reading an article the other day that said robots cost less than slaves to maintain, food versus electricity, etc.

Now it's "basic income" back then it was bread, the government would hand out free bread to workers who were displaced by slaves.

What happened to this system? Well it went on for a very long time until the government slowly ran out of money so that it could no longer afford to buy grain for bread. I'm going to guess it was one of the things that hastened the end of the Roman Empire.

[KyrtF]

Worst idea ever. 80% of population will sit at home and do nothing. I know i would. Why do you want to pay me to sit at home, fap and play games all day? It will destroy humanity. Literally. You should read some Asimov to know what im talking about...

And yet....inevitable.

Jobs are going to be scarce thanks to the rise of robotics, AI and 3Dprinting. People will still need money to live and survive.

What you will see is corporations and businesses paying out an automation tax...perhaps rolled into corporation tax....instead of a wage bill. That way they cut costs but government still gets the money needed to give everyone UBI.

And yes...many will sit around and do nothing. They'd be doing that anyway because there'd be no jobs.

[Faroth]

The one thing I've not seen discussed on the idea is complete government dependence and how that can be used to control society.

Speaking out against the government? Shame your universal basic income has been somehow mixed up and didn't get to you. Please go through beuracratic red tape to correct the situation. Oh, it still hasn't gotten to you? Are you sure? Please hold....

As others have said, something has to be done to address the eventuality that automation will leave us simply not needing people to work. Sure, new jobs are created maintaining automation, etc, but we'll eventually have too many people and not enough jobs to hire them to do. So yeah, we have to figure out what we're going to do to address that, but I do somewhat ponder the ramifications of our livelihoods being completely and entirely dependent on a government of elites controlling our survival.

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Jobs are going to be scarce thanks to the rise of robotics, AI and 3Dprinting. People will still need money to live and survive..

That's a realm of thought unto itself. Universal income is basically a solution to perpetuate an illusion.

If automation makes all things cheap and abundant, the very notion of needing to electronic digits of imaginary value for physical goods comes into question as well.


Obviously the endgame is Star Trek's replicators and no need for currency at all.

[Mafic]

UBI is going to be a baseline. Similar to how it helps lift people out of poverty, but if they want more out of life they need to go the extra mile.

This is why the concept of universal health care works in the majority of the developed world as well. It provides a basic baseline but if you want more you pay for private medical services.

[derpkitteh]

i cannot wait for it. it's gonna be a grand day when this finally happens.

[Fugus]

Worst idea ever. 80% of population will sit at home and do nothing. I know i would. Why do you want to pay me to sit at home, fap and play games all day? It will destroy humanity. Literally. You should read some Asimov to know what im talking about...

As someone who has been out of work for years now and physically unable to do so, I can tell you that is a lie. Most people will eventually want to get out and do SOMETHING. Sitting and doing nothing gets boring.

Now whether you say they are doing something "Productive" or not can be debatable. But they will try and go out and do something. And either they will go out and find work or volunteer or even just go surf or something, but overall the majority will do something productive overall.

Zumzum, you may think you would sit on your ass all the time, but after a while, you will want something else. Just like all those kids who never want to go back to school only to want to go back by the end of summer vacation.

And telling them to go out and get a job when they don't exist isn't helping. People looking for jobs, does not create jobs.

[Jtbrig7390]

As someone who has been out of work for years now and physically unable to do so, I can tell you that is a lie. Most people will eventually want to get out and do SOMETHING. Sitting and doing nothing gets boring.

Its funny you say this.

I am a perfect example of this being true, Today I start working (Tonight at 10PM). My disability is up for review and I'm likely going to lose it, So I went out and got a job. I'm not even going to try to fight and keep it again.

Losing my disability is a blessing and a curse because I know what working will do to me. But I'm also tired of sitting around all the time doing nothing. Its a double edged sword for me.

Ontopic: UBI is the outcome of a advancing society, But it will be many years before we reach that point.

[Daelak]

Come back to me when people figure out how to fund this long term, account for people making more kids with no financial concerns, account for how different prices in counties, cities and states affects benefits and what exactly qualifies as neccesities.

Future tax revenue projections. It doesn't matter where the money comes from, as long as it is being transacted into the economy.

[melodramocracy]

UBI will be absolutely required at some point, but it will generally be a transitional phase towards removing money completely, as it undermines what makes currency sustainable in the first place (as does automation, ironically).

That's decades / centuries from now though, and it will be a very rough road to re-wire centuries of social engineering about people "having to work".

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Ethically, I am not a big fan of being dependent on the government to this extent. I'd rather jobs to be paid as much higher as the universal basic income would be, and the government to stay out of people's personal economies.

Keep the government out of my US Treasury backed currency!

[Fugus]

Its funny you say this.

I am a perfect example of this being true, Today I start working (Tonight at 10PM). My disability is up for review and I'm likely going to lose it, So I went out and got a job. I'm not even going to try to fight and keep it again.

Losing my disability is a blessing and a curse because I know what working will do to me. But I'm also tired of sitting around all the time doing nothing. Its a double edged sword for me.

Ontopic: UBI is the outcome of a advancing society, But it will be many years before we reach that point.

I am at a point where I am stuck. Stuck with nerve damage that will never heal and a leg that is half limp/numb and in constant pain. Have issues just getting groceries and honestly get tired of people asking me if I need help half the time.

Wish I could try and at least get something but honestly no one would hire me like this and even if I tried, the VA would use it against me. They are the type who will say that if you can work 5 hours a month, then you can do it for 40 hours per week to try and leave you for dead so they could save money.

I would so hope to be able to do something but quite literally in a position where I am not able to nor am I allowed to even try without screwing myself for life in the process. I honestly miss exercising and doing stuff. Done demolition work, did lawn care, chopped lumber, also used to rebuild and repair computers for a living and can't do any of it anymore. Also did steel fabrication, auto repair, and worked in a lumber mill but those jobs can kick rocks, they sucked and all of them paid $9 or less.

[Berengil]

A basic income isn't a luxurious living. And any earnings are more money in your pocket. You've got just as much incentive to work, in a UBI system, as you do today, unless you're perfectly happy doing the bare minimum in a minimum-wage job. And really, if that's the case, there just aren't that many people like you.

This is what so many don't seem to comprehend. You're not going to be buying curved tvs, a BMW, the latest gaming comp, and vacations to Maui with UBI.

In my view, any decent society should ensure that each of its citizens ( regardless of their social worth ) has the following:

1) a nutritious diet
2) adequate shelter
3) clothing
4) health care
5) pre-k through senior year of college education

If they want more than that, then you have to work for it.

[Theodarzna]

Come back to me when people figure out how to fund this long term, account for people making more kids with no financial concerns, account for how different prices in counties, cities and states affects benefits and what exactly qualifies as neccesities.

Many countries would kill to get their people to just make two kids per couple.

[SupBrah]

Worst idea ever. 80% of population will sit at home and do nothing. I know i would. Why do you want to pay me to sit at home, fap and play games all day? It will destroy humanity. Literally. You should read some Asimov to know what im talking about...

This

Plus, even if it was remotely possible, it would involve the government literally controlling every part of your life.

Whether or not you can have children (cant have too many leeches on the system)

What kind of job you'll have (some people still have to work, and there won't be room for useless liberal arts degrees anymore).

What you eat, how much you eat, etc.

All you liberals who like to get together, protest, and destroy random stuff? Kiss that goodbye. If you get caught doing what you're not supposed to be doing, you can get taken off UBI and be left to rot in a ditch. You think people will give up their livelyhood to defend you? lol.

You think you're a slave now because you have to work for a living? Imagine if big daddy government is footing the bill.





Also, it could only be remotely successful if there was eugenics program tied to it.

Your baby has a mental illness? Gotta say goodbye. Can't have a bunch of leeches on the system.

You get disabled somehow and can't bring anything to the table? Sucks for you because you have to go.

[GennGreymane]

A nice chunk of that low replacement rate comes from people lacking the resources to care for a family. You remove the fear of being able to feed and shelter kids and people will make families again. It doesn't fix the whole rate, but it definitely works to changing it.

Also. Still an absurdly high amount of people on the planet, regardless of replacement.

Actually the biggest contributor to low birthrate is women working.

[zenkai]

http://www.economist.com/news/briefi...widely-sighing
Toughts?

We sort of have this with welfare, people still complain it's not enough.

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Actually the biggest contributor to low birthrate is women working.

Probably so, since childcare is so damn expensive.

[GennGreymane]

We sort of have this with welfare, people still complain it's not enough.

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Probably so, since childcare is so damn expensive.

Plus, now many people wait till later in life to have kids, which also leads to less kids.