Page 3 of 14 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
5
13
... LastLast
  1. #41
    Pit Lord
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Unites States
    Posts
    2,348
    Quote Originally Posted by Rectan View Post
    Not really 500 x 14 Str = 7000, 375 x 20 haste = 7500
    I must have been half asleep. Did math right but got them mixed up lmao.
    | Fractal Design Define R5 White | Intel i7-4790K CPU | Corsair H100i Cooler | 16GB G.Skill Ripsaws X 1600Mhz |
    | MSI Gaming 6G GTX 980ti | Samsung 850 Pro 256GB SSD | Seagate Barracuda 1TB HDD | Seagate Barracuda 3TB HDD |

  2. #42
    Stood in the Fire CaptnTorpedo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    France
    Posts
    435
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    The point of my post was that I wasn't going to comment on what someone else may or may not have surmised prior to the release of my guides.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Gut = data however. Along with the above, there are only so many ways to invest your points in 7.2, and it's fairly obvious which ones are better than others. The only real question is whether you want a slight increase immediately, with a huge delay on a better increase later on, or a smaller increase immediately, but less time until you get the large one.

    Regarding D&G, you already hold OF for BC, and will continue to do so.
    Is there any situation where it would be worth not holding OF ? I'm thinking heavy AoE, especially right after a Rampage so we still benefit from FB and Enrage, there sure would be times where it's better to just blow it depending on the number of targets ? At 7/7 bc traits, napkins maths make me think that up from 3 targets should be worth it ?

    (Not taking into consideration priority targets or w/e, just pure numbers, I'm still gonna blow it one guldan's eyes regardless so we don't just ... die )

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptnTorpedo View Post
    Is there any situation where it would be worth not holding OF ? I'm thinking heavy AoE, especially right after a Rampage so we still benefit from FB and Enrage, there sure would be times where it's better to just blow it depending on the number of targets ? At 7/7 bc traits, napkins maths make me think that up from 3 targets should be worth it ?

    (Not taking into consideration priority targets or w/e, just pure numbers, I'm still gonna blow it one guldan's eyes regardless so we don't just ... die )
    On AoE heavy fights, you're going to hold BC for OF, not the other way around, and often skip Draught anyway.

  4. #44
    Archi, tell please, how to correctly simulate char with simcraft now?
    As i understand, it is still no sim client for 7.2 mechanics.

    Or we can use a 7.1.5 client from simulationcraft site and it will sim the char correctly?

  5. #45
    Thanks for the effort arch! I play 7 class and 11 spec. None of the other 10 spec have a guide as detailed and as updated as this one anywhere on mmo-c. Not to mention you actually read the thread and reply to quiries. Perfect for lazy asses like me who just want to play the game decently without the theorycraft and simming. Might not be worth anything, but take my gratitude!

  6. #46
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Germany (Bavaria)
    Posts
    183
    Quote Originally Posted by Todu View Post
    Hes work is based on tousend of sims under diferent situations and conditions. What u thing is hes work - a feelcraft....
    I just asked a question, which could be answered by some numbers but ... welll

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    The point of my post was that I wasn't going to comment on what someone else may or may not have surmised prior to the release of my guides.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Gut = data however. Along with the above, there are only so many ways to invest your points in 7.2, and it's fairly obvious which ones are better than others. The only real question is whether you want a slight increase immediately, with a huge delay on a better increase later on, or a smaller increase immediately, but less time until you get the large one.

    Regarding D&G, you already hold OF for BC, and will continue to do so.


    I really appreciate your work don't get me wrong in the following but ... this answer is in my opinion just unfriendly.



    You are also telling me/everyone do this and that and thats the best, just like others (yes, you do sim a lot, test ... but this COULD also just be wrong). Kelade i.e. seems also to be playing his warrior pretty good and trying around with the talents and so on. So i tend to beleive him, too.
    On top, sims are the one thing, but playing with the data, that these sims result in, is the other thing. What does it benefit me, if a sims tells me to set up my gear in a way, which perhaps would benefit the execute phase in an extrem way, but gutts the other time.
    In the sim, you would make up your dmg you lost in the other 80% if you could stand still and just execute. But ingame, you just have bosses where you are forced to move around (and loose your stacks or just can't execute at all). So your sims would make it theoretically worse. (THIS IS ALL THEORY, just to explain).

    I for myself didn't get one of the f**king dps legendarys (for raids) - no hat, no ring, no cloak - and also didn't get any of the two good trinkets from NH. So my ST is pretty shit compared to others.
    The new traits, especially the gold one seem to buff more your MT and not ST in my opinion. The old traits (BC, RB, Enrage) instead seem (to me) to buff more your ST.
    And as i heard/read the same from others i just wanted to now if my feeling is correct or not and have it supported by some (rough) numbers which i hoped to get from you.

    As my raid i'm playing in is not struggling with burst aoe dmg, i would have prefered to buff MY single target as i'm feeling it is to low (i didn't get the good items for ST). This might not be the best solution for every warrior out there, especially if you have CoF, DoS, Angry Hat, Cloak, Ayals but it might have been a good solution for me.
    But i sadly don't have the time to sim all of this myself, but you did. So i would have appreciated, i you could have given me some numbers between the trait choices.
    Like BC, Enrage, RB is a 20% buff MT and a 60% buff ST compared to 80% and 40% for the new ones.
    If the old traits would have been better in ST, it would have been a viable solution for ME even if i gutt my aoe burst (which we don't need in our raid). (I'm trying to support my raid as much as i can, otherwise i wouldn't have asked.)


    As i said in the beginning, don't get me wrong. I appreciate your work and i still believe you, but a simple answer like "the new traits are in absolut every situation way better than the old ones by a hugh margin, even ST" or "they are close together, new = aoe, old = ST" would have been great.
    Warrior(Main)|Druid|Shaman|DH

    Nanoxia Deep Silence 5 Rev.B|ASRock Z97 Extreme4|i7-4790K|HR-02 Macho|G.Skill TridentX 2x8GB|XFX R9 Fury|250GB+64GB+1TB SSD|4TB HDD|Seasonic G-550|Razer Naga Epic Chroma+Razer Sphex|Logitech G910+|LG 34UC88-B|LG 27UD68P-B|LG 24EB23PM-B|Beyerdynamics DT990 Pro+AntLion ModMic 4|Thrustmaster T500RS+TH8A

  7. #47
    I got something thats bothering me and can´t find a answer.

    If blizz lets us equip old+new setpieces would it be worth for us to run 4/2
    The bonus crit chance for bloodthirst seems good for the new 2 piece bonus.
    Losing anyryHat seems fine since the raging blow trait gives extra rage gen.
    As small bonus running chest+leg t20 seems good cause they have better stats then the t19 pieces.
    You end up with 6 good set pieces.
    As for legendarys ring+neck or the new belt seem fine.

    ...Then there is the possibility of 2/4.
    Getting the critchance for bloodthrist as it does 50% more dmg + the proc from 2 setbonus
    But you would lose enrage uptime.
    Last edited by Prismriver; 2017-03-31 at 12:59 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Rectan View Post
    Not really 500 x 14 Str = 7000, 375 x 20 haste = 7500
    In hectic add cleave my STR is 20.35 vs 22.79 for haste. 375 haste food gets a score of 8,546 (22.79*375) vs 10,175 (500*20.35). STR food wins for me in hectic add cleave. They are about even single target.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    I just asked a question, which could be answered by some numbers but ... welll





    I really appreciate your work don't get me wrong in the following but ... this answer is in my opinion just unfriendly.



    You are also telling me/everyone do this and that and thats the best, just like others (yes, you do sim a lot, test ... but this COULD also just be wrong). Kelade i.e. seems also to be playing his warrior pretty good and trying around with the talents and so on. So i tend to beleive him, too.
    On top, sims are the one thing, but playing with the data, that these sims result in, is the other thing. What does it benefit me, if a sims tells me to set up my gear in a way, which perhaps would benefit the execute phase in an extrem way, but gutts the other time.
    In the sim, you would make up your dmg you lost in the other 80% if you could stand still and just execute. But ingame, you just have bosses where you are forced to move around (and loose your stacks or just can't execute at all). So your sims would make it theoretically worse. (THIS IS ALL THEORY, just to explain).

    I for myself didn't get one of the f**king dps legendarys (for raids) - no hat, no ring, no cloak - and also didn't get any of the two good trinkets from NH. So my ST is pretty shit compared to others.
    The new traits, especially the gold one seem to buff more your MT and not ST in my opinion. The old traits (BC, RB, Enrage) instead seem (to me) to buff more your ST.
    And as i heard/read the same from others i just wanted to now if my feeling is correct or not and have it supported by some (rough) numbers which i hoped to get from you.

    As my raid i'm playing in is not struggling with burst aoe dmg, i would have prefered to buff MY single target as i'm feeling it is to low (i didn't get the good items for ST). This might not be the best solution for every warrior out there, especially if you have CoF, DoS, Angry Hat, Cloak, Ayals but it might have been a good solution for me.
    But i sadly don't have the time to sim all of this myself, but you did. So i would have appreciated, i you could have given me some numbers between the trait choices.
    Like BC, Enrage, RB is a 20% buff MT and a 60% buff ST compared to 80% and 40% for the new ones.
    If the old traits would have been better in ST, it would have been a viable solution for ME even if i gutt my aoe burst (which we don't need in our raid). (I'm trying to support my raid as much as i can, otherwise i wouldn't have asked.)


    As i said in the beginning, don't get me wrong. I appreciate your work and i still believe you, but a simple answer like "the new traits are in absolut every situation way better than the old ones by a hugh margin, even ST" or "they are close together, new = aoe, old = ST" would have been great.
    I can stop you short and say if you dont currently have DOS + COF then your ST will be shit to anyone else that does. My DOS is literally my #3 most damaging move on any ST fight. 4 piece and trinkets is everything in NH.
    Last edited by Roiids; 2017-03-31 at 01:57 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Roiids View Post
    In hectic add cleave my STR is 20.35 vs 22.79 for haste. 375 haste food gets a score of 8,546 (22.79*375) vs 10,175 (500*20.35). STR food wins for me in hectic add cleave. They are about even single target.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I can stop you short and say if you dont currently have DOS + COF then your ST will be shit to anyone else that does. My DOS is literally my #3 most damaging move on any ST fight. 4 piece and trinkets is everything in NH.
    yes its quite smiliar on hectic add cleave for me aswell my calcs were only for pure st with my individual stats

  10. #50
    Hey! I was doing some simulation and it is showing me that mastery and versality have more value then haste. I'm on 22% haste. Is it ok or this is some kind of mistake?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Wulghash View Post
    Hey! I was doing some simulation and it is showing me that mastery and versality have more value then haste. I'm on 22% haste. Is it ok or this is some kind of mistake?
    Hi, it depends on your gear, for me mastery and vers were the best stats aswell some weeks ago.. now my gear has changed and haste overtook mastery again

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Rectan View Post
    Hi, it depends on your gear, for me mastery and vers were the best stats aswell some weeks ago.. now my gear has changed and haste overtook mastery again
    Hello,
    I have similar question : i just did a simcraft and it say mastery > haste...i have only 24% haste, sound strange. Every guide say hate (30%) > mastery

    Can someone give me my weight stat with my character to confirm mine ? I play on Hyjal - EU named Korthias

    Thanks

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    I really appreciate your work don't get me wrong in the following but ... this answer is in my opinion just unfriendly.



    You are also telling me/everyone do this and that and thats the best, just like others (yes, you do sim a lot, test ... but this COULD also just be wrong). Kelade i.e. seems also to be playing his warrior pretty good and trying around with the talents and so on. So i tend to beleive him, too.
    On top, sims are the one thing, but playing with the data, that these sims result in, is the other thing. What does it benefit me, if a sims tells me to set up my gear in a way, which perhaps would benefit the execute phase in an extrem way, but gutts the other time.
    In the sim, you would make up your dmg you lost in the other 80% if you could stand still and just execute. But ingame, you just have bosses where you are forced to move around (and loose your stacks or just can't execute at all). So your sims would make it theoretically worse. (THIS IS ALL THEORY, just to explain).

    I for myself didn't get one of the f**king dps legendarys (for raids) - no hat, no ring, no cloak - and also didn't get any of the two good trinkets from NH. So my ST is pretty shit compared to others.
    The new traits, especially the gold one seem to buff more your MT and not ST in my opinion. The old traits (BC, RB, Enrage) instead seem (to me) to buff more your ST.
    And as i heard/read the same from others i just wanted to now if my feeling is correct or not and have it supported by some (rough) numbers which i hoped to get from you.

    As my raid i'm playing in is not struggling with burst aoe dmg, i would have prefered to buff MY single target as i'm feeling it is to low (i didn't get the good items for ST). This might not be the best solution for every warrior out there, especially if you have CoF, DoS, Angry Hat, Cloak, Ayals but it might have been a good solution for me.
    But i sadly don't have the time to sim all of this myself, but you did. So i would have appreciated, i you could have given me some numbers between the trait choices.
    Like BC, Enrage, RB is a 20% buff MT and a 60% buff ST compared to 80% and 40% for the new ones.
    If the old traits would have been better in ST, it would have been a viable solution for ME even if i gutt my aoe burst (which we don't need in our raid). (I'm trying to support my raid as much as i can, otherwise i wouldn't have asked.)


    As i said in the beginning, don't get me wrong. I appreciate your work and i still believe you, but a simple answer like "the new traits are in absolut every situation way better than the old ones by a hugh margin, even ST" or "they are close together, new = aoe, old = ST" would have been great.
    I don't see why you think it's unfriendly - I explained why I chose a different path, because I believe the shorter investment to a greater increase to be worth more than a mediocre immediate increase followed by a longer delay in the greater bonus; while you'll eventually gain every bonus, opportunity cost is a very real thing, given the ramping AP costs in 7.2. It's fine to disagree with that, as it is fairly subjective, but the logic has merit; Nighthold and Mythic+ content are filled with AoE opportunities, and D&G is an obscenely powerful for them, while fleshing out Wrath/Berserker are very minor overall bonuses which won't notably impact your performance (meaning you won't even notice a difference in your DPS upon obtaining them). To give you numbers*:
    • An extra point in Unrivaled Strength is worth ~2.5-3% DPS (with DoS/CoF).
    • An extra point in Wrath is worth ~1-1.2% DPS single target and nothing on multi-target.
    • An extra point in Berserker is worth ~1-1.2% DPS on single or multi-target.
    • 4 points in Pulse of Battle is worth around 1% DPS total.
    • Oathblood is worth ~1.5-2% DPS.
    • Death and Glory is worth ~1.5-1.8% DPS on single target.
    • Death and Glory is worth ~20-50% DPS on burst multi-target.
    *standard "lots of variables affect these values so they may or may not be entirely accurate for every individual" disclaimer applies.

    You can decide what that data is worth to you, but my guides are going to recommend pushing the most notable increases. Ultimately, you're going to get them all eventually anyway, so it isn't exactly a huge concern.

    Keep in mind, that it's impossible to cater to every specific player's unique situation when writing guides; the idea is generally to address the majority common interest. If you feel that your situation is outside of the norm, then the guide might not be for you, and that's fine... but it's hard for me to address, especially if I don't know about your unique situation to begin with (if it makes you feel better, I've played Fury the whole expansion and don't have any DPS legendaries either).

    Also, regarding your raid, if it's struggling on single target but excelling at AoE, unless you have a really unorthodox group comp, it's far more likely you'd see better returns if the specs which specialize in MT do so, while those who don't focus on ST; this would mean that you would in fact likely see more improvement if you as a Fury Warrior were to pursue increased MT, while the better ST specs focus there instead. This will be especially applicable when tackling more difficult bosses such as Gul'dan.

    Quote Originally Posted by DDM View Post
    On top, sims are the one thing, but playing with the data, that these sims result in, is the other thing. What does it benefit me, if a sims tells me to set up my gear in a way, which perhaps would benefit the execute phase in an extrem way, but gutts the other time.
    In the sim, you would make up your dmg you lost in the other 80% if you could stand still and just execute. But ingame, you just have bosses where you are forced to move around (and loose your stacks or just can't execute at all). So your sims would make it theoretically worse. (THIS IS ALL THEORY, just to explain).
    I know this is a hypothetical example, but just to be clear, it isn't a realistic situation.

    If there's anything people who have followed my content for any length of time should know, it's that my guides and data are all based upon realistic gameplay - I purposefully limit simulations to keep them in-line with realistic gameplay, and don't weight impractical mechanics (meaning there are things I could write into the simulations to inflate DPS, but I don't, because no player would reliably do them). My guides also account for things such as intermittent AoE, opportunity costs, and playing to a specs inherent strengths (see: Fury MT burst), rather than simply push the highest single target sim dps possible.

    On the subject of Juggernaut, while the sim does get good Juggernaut uptime without loss, it has to account for potential, which is achievable on many bosses even if it's not necessarily replicable by each individual player at all times. While failing to do so is unfortunate, it's quite frankly the only reliable way to do simulate it, and doesn't greatly influence stat weights either way. You can always artificially limit or remove the Execute phase from your own simulations if you don't trust it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulghash View Post
    Hey! I was doing some simulation and it is showing me that mastery and versality have more value then haste. I'm on 22% haste. Is it ok or this is some kind of mistake?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rectan View Post
    Hi, it depends on your gear, for me mastery and vers were the best stats aswell some weeks ago.. now my gear has changed and haste overtook mastery again
    Quote Originally Posted by Keriam View Post
    Hello,
    I have similar question : i just did a simcraft and it say mastery > haste...i have only 24% haste, sound strange. Every guide say hate (30%) > mastery

    Can someone give me my weight stat with my character to confirm mine ? I play on Hyjal - EU named Korthias

    Thanks
    Simcraft stat weights aren't intended to be all-encompassing (aka: "stat weights lie"). They are merely snapshots of your current DPS per point, and often/always shift with every change of gear or circumstance, so they're only meant to be used until you change your gear, at which point you're meant to get new weights. In contrast, guides give long-term projections so that you don't have to re-sim after every change of gear; if you want to see these projections, try doing stat plots instead.

    In the end, it doesn't really matter("♫"), since most every piece of gear has two stats on it, and Haste and Mastery will be your most desired stats anyway.

  14. #54
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Germany (Bavaria)
    Posts
    183
    Quote Originally Posted by Roiids View Post
    I can stop you short and say if you dont currently have DOS + COF then your ST will be shit to anyone else that does. My DOS is literally my #3 most damaging move on any ST fight. 4 piece and trinkets is everything in NH.
    And thats exactly why I asked the question. I now that DOS and COF (along 4pc and hat+cloak) are the main reason why my ST DPS is not the best. So i wanted to see, if i can improve it with the new (old) talents and if you would see a difference in some of the talents. And as you get all talents anyway, I wouldn't have had a problem with waiting for more AoE if i could have buffed my ST (significantly) more with the old talents.




    @archimtiors: Thanks for the detailed numbers, but this exactly wouldn't have been necessary. From your detailed numbers i can see, that the old talents are just a slightly bit better, than the new ones, and you would need DOS + COF for this. So without having it the new traits would be more or less equal to the old ones BUT you also gain a good buff to your AoE.
    THAT's all i would have wanted to know and i wouldn't have needed detailed numbers for that. Just the information that the new ones are more or less even in ST to the old ones but the AoE is on top, would have been absolutely enough.

    I know, that your guides are focusing on the most common way and overall best upgrades for everyone but as i'm in a slightly different situation i asked this specific question in an general way (old ones better for ST, new ones better for MT = correct?) to get just a general answer and decide by myself.

    (I hope i was able to explain my self correctly/to find the correct words to make it understandable for you as i'm german.)

    And why unfriendly: I just asked a general question which could have easily be answered in my opinion (as i explained above), and if i didn't have tought so, i wouldn't have asked. It seemed like: My question is a bit of to the guide and so i may not believe you -> i don't get an answer because i'm questioning your guide.
    Last edited by DDM; 2017-04-04 at 05:51 AM.
    Warrior(Main)|Druid|Shaman|DH

    Nanoxia Deep Silence 5 Rev.B|ASRock Z97 Extreme4|i7-4790K|HR-02 Macho|G.Skill TridentX 2x8GB|XFX R9 Fury|250GB+64GB+1TB SSD|4TB HDD|Seasonic G-550|Razer Naga Epic Chroma+Razer Sphex|Logitech G910+|LG 34UC88-B|LG 27UD68P-B|LG 24EB23PM-B|Beyerdynamics DT990 Pro+AntLion ModMic 4|Thrustmaster T500RS+TH8A

  15. #55
    @Archimtiros, tell please, how to correctly simulate char with simcraft now?
    As i understand, there is no sim client for 7.2 mechanics.

    Or we can use a 7.1.5 client from simulationcraft site and it will sim the char correctly?

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by mux View Post
    @Archimtiros, tell please, how to correctly simulate char with simcraft now?
    As i understand, there is no sim client for 7.2 mechanics.

    Or we can use a 7.1.5 client from simulationcraft site and it will sim the char correctly?
    http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D there you can find the latest builds for 7.2

  17. #57
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Ravencrest (EU)
    Posts
    226
    Is it weird that I'm at 32.7% haste, 33.33% mastery and simc still telling me haste > mastery?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    "What are the best Relic traits?"
    Spoiler: 
    Battle Cry, Raging Blow, and Enrage

    So today I got a 915 Unkindled Ember and I already had an 895 exothermic core. According to this it's not even an upgrade and I screwed a guildie over who could have used this.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by PewPewArrowz View Post
    Is it weird that I'm at 32.7% haste, 33.33% mastery and simc still telling me haste > mastery?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankelmir View Post
    So today I got a 915 Unkindled Ember and I already had an 895 exothermic core. According to this it's not even an upgrade and I screwed a guildie over who could have used this.
    They're probably fairly close.

    - - - Updated - - -

    OP updated with Artifact Challenge information and video.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by PewPewArrowz View Post
    Is it weird that I'm at 32.7% haste, 33.33% mastery and simc still telling me haste > mastery?
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    No.

    So is it weird that simc tells me mastery>haste whenever I go %26+ haste? And it is not lying I realy do more dps in real fights with mastery heavy gear.


    My second question is:

    Given that the new minor trait(pulse of battle) is a buff to baseline Raging Blow over Inner rage talent and that Bloodbath lining up(almost) with battle cry , do you think we will see non-inner rage builds soon?
    I kinda am sick of this Inner Rage talent ;d

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •