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  1. #1021
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkhtar View Post
    Samuro is basically a stealth hero as well. He can do what Zeratul can just a bit better since he is much more versatile... useful in teamfights... excellent escape.. hard to target... higher damage.

    Only advantage Zera has is the ult... but sometimes dmg ults are better... just to blow up a caster or healer.
    First time I see anyone call Samuro more useful than Zeratul. You are very wrong.
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  2. #1022
    Old God Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    I have been thinking about it. Currently we have 3 stealth Heroes: Zeratul, Nova and Valeera with our dark prelate being the clear winner.

    I like the idea of pushing them into more utility based roles even though I disagree with popular notion of it being broken or 'unfair'. Right now, I think Stealth Heroes are either a 'counter' to blatant bad play (Not taking any Reveal or just running around alone with low health) or all about abusing small windows of chaos in fight to blow up targets when they are focusing on something else.
    This "unfairness" comes from lack of counterplay - they either have to make it more visible (which would be kinda bad) or make it less "available" (make it not work when mounted up and remove the "grants mounted speed" bullshit). There should be some downside to being nearly invisible that can open up some counterplay. That's where "unfair" argument comes from, the argument of "i got blown up 100-0" is completely different story and involves burst-oriented heroes, not specifically stealth heroes.

    Any hero is a "counter" to "bad play". Reveal in game is mostly luxury (which it supposed to be), because it's not that hard to deal with stealth heroes (holy fire and other AoE effects). Running around alone with low health - again it's not about stealth heroes to prey upon singled out targets, plenty of "duelists" here who can finish of or take out targets by themselves.

    Singling out opponents midfight is what mobile assassins do - not specifically stealth heroes. So, what exactly is a "stealth hero"? Right now they don't have a niche by themselves, and stealth is hardly a "tool" (tho, how stealth is implemented for Samuro and Tyrande is how it supposed to be IMO) since its available almost all the time. What really helps Zeratul to "abuse small windows of chaos in fight" his tripple blink, or stealth? How exactly Genji is different from Zeratul in this "abuse small windows of chaos in fights" case?

    Stealth should allow you to attack from unexpected angles, allow you to give your team information on enemies in somewhat safe manner, it should give you an ability to strike first when played correctly. Right now it's just all over the place and most of the time used to safely transport from point A to B while looking somewhere else (which should be a players skill of their own, you should be aware of where your character is, and what happens on the map)
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2017-07-26 at 10:08 AM.
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  3. #1023
    Pandaren Monk RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkhtar View Post
    Samuro is basically a stealth hero as well. He can do what Zeratul can just a bit better since he is much more versatile... useful in teamfights... excellent escape.. hard to target... higher damage.

    Only advantage Zera has is the ult... but sometimes dmg ults are better... just to blow up a caster or healer.
    I didn't include Samuro because doesn't have access to permament Stealth.

    However Samuro isn't really good Hero. Yes, he has very high single target DPS, but mainly against single target and your Images are attacking same target. Other than damage, which feels very clunky and unreliable, he brings no utility to fights. He is also pretty strong at 1v1, but he struggles at forcing those fights because most Heroes can just disengage from him.

    What he does good is being a semi-global Hero with Illusion Master, swapping between lanes on demand; and taking mercenary camps. Zeratul brings similar global presence because enemy team can't identify his rotations and after level 13 with Mending Strikes he can take Giants just fine, but does way more in team fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    This "unfairness" comes from lack of counterplay - they either have to make it more visible (which would be kinda bad) or make it less "available" (make it not work when mounted up and remove the "grants mounted speed" bullshit). There should be some downside to being nearly invisible that can open up some counterplay. That's where "unfair" argument comes from, the argument of "i got blown up 100-0" is completely different story and involves burst-oriented heroes, not specifically stealth heroes.
    Yeah, you are right. It is about burst damage. However for some reason, people have trouble accepting Rogues sneaking and stabbing them into back, but when they get blown up by Pyroblast from Mage standing a mile away they are fine with it. To me it seems like some irrational psychological issue more than anything.

    About the Mount speed, in HotS there are two types of stealth. First you have Cloak mechanic of Zeratul and Nova who are have it permanent and available while mounted, but are unable to active during combat and the second is Samuro's Windwalk and Valeera's Stealth who can use it during combat, but can't mount. Completely fine and fair for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Any hero is a "counter" to "bad play". Reveal in game is mostly luxury (which it supposed to be), because it's not that hard to deal with stealth heroes (holy fire and other AoE effects). Running around alone with low health - again it's not about stealth heroes to prey upon singled out targets, plenty of "duelists" here who can finish of or take out targets by themselves.
    Sure, every Hero can punish a bad play, but not to the same extent. Stealth Heroes are better at it because they can move undetected and scout situation before committing to the kill. There are way better duelists than most Stealth Heroes, but if they are roaming and encounter a full enemy team they are free kill, meanwhile a Stealth Hero can follow a prey and strike when situation presents itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Singling out opponents midfight is what mobile assassins do - not specifically stealth heroes. So, what exactly is a "stealth hero"? Right now they don't have a niche by themselves, and stealth is hardly a "tool" (tho, how stealth is implemented for Samuro and Tyrande is how it supposed to be IMO) since its available almost all the time. What really helps Zeratul to "abuse small windows of chaos in fight" his tripple blink, or stealth? How exactly Genji is different from Zeratul in this "abuse small windows of chaos in fights" case?
    I didn't say they single out opponent, it is usually done by Warriors and mobile Assassins.

    Stealth Heroes are mostly being played as semi-globals because they scout, harrass enemy during rotations, join for ganks or can even safely soak side lanes. Since you asked about Genji, he can do those things too. However in fight he serves slightly different role. Zeratul usually waits before committing hard to set up combo with Void Prison or burst target down. Genji on the other hand can harrass a single target for long period of time or move back and be played as 'frontline' Valla, because his defenses allow him to do so, while waiting for resets.

    What I am trying to say, Zeratul needs to be more careful picking his fight because he doesn't have Deflect, huge gap creating ability and access to 3 charges of AA negation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Stealth should allow you to attack from unexpected angles, allow you to give your team information on enemies in somewhat safe manner, it should give you an ability to strike first when played correctly. Right now it's just all over the place and most of the time used to safely transport from point A to B while looking somewhere else (which should be a players skill of their own, you should be aware of where your character is, and what happens on the map)
    I think Stealth should be tool to scout and set up ganks or combos. So far only Zeratul does that while Valeera has the potential, but her melee range on abilities and lack of sturdiness prevents her from fulfilling it.

    No idea about Nova though. I think she needs a bigger rework because she is easy to punish once revealed and her current kit doesn't have anything to set up combos. Or just scrap the Cloak mechanic and give her stealth she can use in middle of combat.
    Last edited by RH92; 2017-07-26 at 01:48 PM.

  4. #1024
    Old God Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RH92 View Post
    No idea about Nova though. I think she needs a bigger rework because she is easy to punish once revealed and her current kit doesn't have anything to set up combos. Or just scrap the Cloak mechanic and give her stealth she can use in middle of combat.
    It's just a weird artifact from SC, ghosts should have cloak. Period. But it doesn't fit her kit at all, because it's not a SC. She is perfectly fine and viable without her cloak ability, there is just nothing interesting to it
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

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