Starfall not scaling with haste a huge nerf?

[treekush]

Im hearing people claim it cut our DPS in literally half on AoE in night hold. Is this true? I have not tested it myself.

[roi]

Starfall damage is the same, however it's much more consistent and less bursty, if whatever you're starfalling dies within like 3 seconds, then yes, you lose dps. If targets live for a long time, you gain damage as your dots benefit from the much higher stellar empowerment uptime.

[Slippykins]

It is not a nerf. Starfall does the same damage as it did before 7.2.

[saradonin]

Starfall damage is the same, however it's much more consistent and less bursty, if whatever you're starfalling dies within like 3 seconds, then yes, you lose dps. If targets live for a long time, you gain damage as your dots benefit from the much higher stellar empowerment uptime.

I see it as a slight nerf to be honest.

Against long living targets - uptime stays the same. If starfall is worth casting, Shoting Stars generates enough AP to keep it at 100% uptime even with >30% haste. Only advantage of the recent change Starfall I can think of is a possibility to squeeze few Starsuges in between.

Against short living targets - it cripples our "burst AoE" immensely, because Starfall alone does roughy the same DPS as both empowered dots summed up, even more if we don't have enough time to Moonfire 4-5 targets.

- - - Updated - - -

It is not a nerf. Starfall does the same damage as it did before 7.2.

Same amount of damage in longer time window = less DPS.

[Deleted]

Ultimately DPS is much less important than DPET. That's like arguing that casting DoTs is useless because moonfire only does 50k DPS while spamming wrath does 150k.

[Deleted]

During our mythic Chromatic anomaly kill yesterday, all adds on the side where most of the raid was (we split the raid in two non symetric groupes), were dying well before the duration of ONE starfall... Same thing on skorpyron adds... And this is a dps loss, and a DPET loss since significant portion each of my starfall casts is now running on one remaining target (boss) instead of a pack.
It doesn't matter much as those fight are well farmed, but as i already was at the bottom of the metter on ST fight (krossus/trilax) , i am now also struggleing on those fight also. And i suspect that situation will reproduce itself on aluriel's arcanic adds tonight whose life expectancy is short enough to interact badly with our longer starfalls.

[Deleted]

It's a huge nerf to everything outside of ST with OI (where it's a minor buff) or very long sustained AOE.
Yes the DPET is the same in theory, but the fact that you rarely get the full 8 sec off on all your starfalls effectively reduces the DPET by a substantial amount.

For instance, compare my spellblade kill this week to lasts:
this week: 650 starfall hits, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=22
last week: 900 starfall hits, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=13
granted there'll be some other factors creating variance, it's about a 25-30% nerf to starfall on Spellblade.

You can also compare how we rank compared to other classes on all the AOE bosses (Scorpyron, Spellblade, Tichondrius) and you'll find we rank lower than prepatch compared to the other classes, even though our new trait gives 12% increased starfall damage. In most situations, the 12% dmg from the trait isn't even close to compesating.

[Kluian05]

It will be a nerf on the short burst aoe fights like Skorp and Tich where the adds do not live long.

It may possibly make people go back to Imp Moonkin Form over Soul of the Forest (40 cost SF) even on AoE fights since its easier to have high uptime on Starfall with static duration.

[huth]

It's a huge nerf to everything outside of ST with OI (where it's a minor buff) or very long sustained AOE.
Yes the DPET is the same in theory, but the fact that you rarely get the full 8 sec off on all your starfalls effectively reduces the DPET by a substantial amount.

For instance, compare my spellblade kill this week to lasts:
this week: 650 starfall hits, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=22
last week: 900 starfall hits, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=13
granted there'll be some other factors creating variance, it's about a 25-30% nerf to starfall on Spellblade.

You can also compare how we rank compared to other classes on all the AOE bosses (Scorpyron, Spellblade, Tichondrius) and you'll find we rank lower than prepatch compared to the other classes, even though our new trait gives 12% increased starfall damage. In most situations, the 12% dmg from the trait isn't even close to compesating.

I think that's actually more down to other specs burst AOE getting stronger. I noticed adds on Aluriel dying much faster than last week for us.

[Deleted]

It's a huge nerf to everything outside of ST with OI (where it's a minor buff) or very long sustained AOE.
Yes the DPET is the same in theory, but the fact that you rarely get the full 8 sec off on all your starfalls effectively reduces the DPET by a substantial amount.

For instance, compare my spellblade kill this week to lasts:
this week: 650 starfall hits, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=22
last week: 900 starfall hits, https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=13
granted there'll be some other factors creating variance, it's about a 25-30% nerf to starfall on Spellblade.

You can also compare how we rank compared to other classes on all the AOE bosses (Scorpyron, Spellblade, Tichondrius) and you'll find we rank lower than prepatch compared to the other classes, even though our new trait gives 12% increased starfall damage. In most situations, the 12% dmg from the trait isn't even close to compesating.

650/21=30.95
904/29=31.17
Yes nice you got 30% fewer hits on starfall when you cast it 30% fewer times. Revolutionary. MASSIVE NERF

BrokeBack lord masters

[Deleted]

650/21=30.95
904/29=31.17
Yes nice you got 30% fewer hits on starfall when you cast it 30% fewer times. Revolutionary. MASSIVE NERF

BrokeBack lord masters

I was using OI, those extra casts where mostly on the boss outside of 2 procs that I held for adds. But yes, that's a good point, I forgot about that. you can probably subtract about ~150 hits to account for that (6 casts on the boss, 2 on boss + 4 frost adds). That'd make it a 10% nerf, which is still pretty substantial.

[roi]

You went from 31.17 to 30.95 starfall hits per cast on average.

As well as using different legendaries and changing some other gear (losing a few ilvl and nearly 1k haste, also 10 (ten!) free starfall procs), using pots at different times, had 6 whispers procs last week vs 2 this week, the raid setup is a bit different as well, which makes direct comparison a bit unfair. Anyway...

Looking only damage dealt to Icy Enchantment, your own dps while active actually went up by 200k. However, the damage distribution on the adds looks more even overall (they're stealing your dps!):

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...one&target=216

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...one&target=320

Accordingly and unsurprisingly, the boss damage graph in the second log is also much more balanced, no huge outliners anymore:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...cal&target=212

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...one&target=316

Fewer people were tunneling on the boss, especially the other moonkin finally remembered his starfall keybind (yeah I see he used single target spec in the first log :P), that alone causes 60 million damage on the icy adds to be "missing" from other people.

If you convince a bunch of people to return to pure single target boss damage next week, suddenly your total aoe damage will skyrocket again and likely even surpass the old value. And nothing of that has any correlation with the starfall changes.

[Deleted]

This nerf is huge. fucking disgusting

[Wiyld]

its a nerf - for much of pve and all of pvp

[beaver1024]

Mathematically it never works out that having one extra tick of empowered dots would ever compensate for doing damage approximately 30% slower. Additionally the casting while moving part of Stellar Drift is never used by practically anyone simply because boomkins cast at range. You'll never be in range of the Starfall radius in order to take advantage of casting while moving. I don't know why these lies gets repeated over and over that it is not a nerf.

In Warcraftlongs AoE fights have Starfall make up around 50% of an average boomkin's damage. Assuming that most boomkins have around 30% haste, without dps boosted by haste, you would expect around a 15% nerf overall on those fights.

[MV Kaa]

If anything, it is a buff, Because now when we get whispers and heroism, we can still keep SF up 100% instead of it lasting 2 seconds and you dont have enough AP to cast another one.

[Deleted]

For AOE, assuming constant dmg, this is % DPS loss/add duration at 33.33% haste. more haste -> bigger dps loss, less haste -> smaller dps loss.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...at=interactive

[thedeisel]

For AOE, assuming constant dmg, this is % DPS loss/add duration at 33.33% haste. more haste -> bigger dps loss, less haste -> smaller dps loss.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...at=interactive

What is the DPS loss you're measuring there? Total starfall related damage (Starfall + Echoing Stars + Moonfire Empowerment + Sunfire Empowerment) or just the Starfall damage itself?

[MV Kaa]

What is the DPS loss you're measuring there? Total starfall related damage (Starfall + Echoing Stars + Moonfire Empowerment + Sunfire Empowerment) or just the Starfall damage itself?

This. Starfall isnt 100% starfall damage.

[thedeisel]

Overall the dps change seems to me to be really dependent on skill and talent setup in addition to the duration of the adds..

In a relatively short-lived add situation, The better you were at pooling resources (AP and Moon charges) and the more talented into Starfall boosting talents, the more the haste change will be a nerf. If you had SotF+Stellar Drift and pooled your resources well, you very well could've had near 100% uptime on Starfall for adds (depending on how long they lived). So, this is just a pure nerf on Starfall/Echoing Stars damage by however much haste you had and no gain on Stellar Empowerment damage.

On the other hand, if you didn't pool resources, or adds lived so long that pooling resources couldn't help, or you weren't talented into SotF, then the change gains you a lot of uptime on Stellar Empowerment and so Stellar Empowerment damage. At the extreme end here, you could even see a buff to your damage because you're casting Starfall the same number of times but getting more empowered ticks.

Remember, getting even 1 additional tick of each dot empowered is a pretty substantial boost. Before counting Echoing Stars (but counting the new 12% boost, and assuming no relics into Falling Star or the DoT damage boosting Traits), empowerment is around 50% of Starfall-derived damage without Stellar Drift. They're around 40% with Stellar Drift. Even if we say you lose your Haste % as a % of the damage from Starfall directly, by empowering 1 extra tick, you're increasing your empowerment derived damage by 25%. So, the damage difference in that scenario—where the haste change only buys you one extra empowered tick on each dot—from the haste change is pretty tiny.