United States of Europe

[Khetagurov]

where are you from, @Cybran?

[Zephyr Storm]

United States of Europe? Lol, good luck with that!

Considering that things like Brexit exist at all.......yeah, there's your answer.

[Mystrome]

You may be surprised at the amount of people that are first generation and the English is not their primary language. US does not have an official language.

No shit.

So what is it you're now trying to convince me of? That your city being 170 years old and having migrants means it has automatically the culture and history of the entire world, and therefore Europe should ignore their history and merge because it works over there?

People move across borders all the time. They bring with them some of their traditions and customs. Those then change over time because of lack of ties to their origins, eventually becoming something different entirely. That's how it works in the US for one simple reason: there isn't an established culture or official language.

In Europe, they don't change as quickly. Languages are all established. Currencies are all established. Culture is all established. That means, when a *new* culture is introduced into an established one via migration, people view it as strange. It doesn't get assimilated into the existing one. Established culture demands migrants to assume the established culture, not vice versa. That's the reason why the whole refugee/immigrant issue is such a hot topic in Europe.

To use a simple example:

In a place where people are used to hearing church bells during the day, a mosque calling its followers to prayer is generally viewed as an intrusion. The bells and call to prayer serve the exact same function. Yet most people around here would vastly prefer hearing a bell ringing once or twice a day, over the call to prayer five times a day from a mosque. Does it mean everyone here hates Muslims? Not at all. It's simply because the bells are something everyone is used to, it's part of the established culture. Half the time I don't even notice the bells myself, but when I do they don't bother me one bit. Hearing a foreign language blasted over speakers across town would. It just doesn't fit.

(I'm not religious btw.)

[Noradin]

You do know that the Greeks on average work the most hours? Quick google gave me this.

Is "work" defined as "spending time that will be paid for" here?
I won't dispute that they spend a lot of time at work, but it doesn't seem very productive what they are doing there.
Now the question is why? And how do we solve this so that they can work less but more productively?

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Fixed that for you. Might as well use the international language that makes sense.

Then we should pick Spanish.
It is not my favorite language but much better than Chinese for European purposes (since all the European things are already named in Spanish) and it is on the way up, unlike English.

Also it is easy to learn and not as bad as English grammar wise (which is just a poor choice, I think: no grammatical gender, no cases, missing question words, wonky spelling, too many homonyms, etc.).

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I would sign that. All of it. It's what I've been saying all the time. But to do something like that, you need a EU fiscal policy. EU taxation, EU budgeting, EU solidarity money transfer (we've done it in Germany for 70 years, works like a charm). But to do that, Bulgaria would absolutely have to give up fiscal authority to the EU. There's not a snowball's chance in hell we're going to let them do the taxation and money spreading. :P

The problem is that if they have a corruption problem in politics, then giving fiscal authority to the EU would be the best bet to get rid of it, which is why those who profit from said corruption will oppose it and campaign against it.

[stomination]

European countries are different countries, with different languages and culture. It's not quite the same as one country divided into 2 political factions.

Because everyone speaks English in America and there is no difference in culture when u have very large ethnic groups everywhere and a giant country with different named regions that all act different.....

[Deleted]

It's already like that for the smaller members of the EU.

[stomination]

Hardly matters unless all of those are official, and as such all businesses must provide service in those languages if needed.

English isn't official. Just people speak it. Which btw when I get mail from the state I live in. English, Arab, Mandarin, Spanish is usually on it.

[Deleted]

This is called a federal europe and is basically why brexit happened, and why the dutch would leave if we had any democratic process that would allow for it.

It could work in a smaller setting though, and imo is a matter of time. As a dutchie Id have no problem with joining the brits and germans and some nordic states. Austria and sweden could join but imo the sothern countries are too culturally different to make it work

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Alright france spain and portugal could prolly join without too much of a hassle.. But thats stretching this new federal europe to the max.

Growing too big and too fast is basically the problem with the union now

[Cybran]

It's what I've been saying all the time. But to do something like that, you need a EU fiscal policy. EU taxation, EU budgeting, EU solidarity money transfer (we've done it in Germany for 70 years, works like a charm). But to do that, Bulgaria would absolutely have to give up fiscal authority to the EU. There's not a snowball's chance in hell we're going to let them do the taxation and money spreading.

The financial crisis showed that Germans only care about Germans. Merkel refused Euro bonds and debt relief. This is why we won't let you in charge of taxation.

[Allybeboba]

No shit.

So what is it you're now trying to convince me of? That your city being 170 years old and having migrants means it has automatically the culture and history of the entire world, and therefore Europe should ignore their history and merge because it works over there?

People move across borders all the time. They bring with them some of their traditions and customs. Those then change over time because of lack of ties to their origins, eventually becoming something different entirely. That's how it works in the US for one simple reason: there isn't an established culture or official language.

In Europe, they don't change as quickly. Languages are all established. Currencies are all established. Culture is all established. That means, when a *new* culture is introduced into an established one via migration, people view it as strange. It doesn't get assimilated into the existing one. Established culture demands migrants to assume the established culture, not vice versa. That's the reason why the whole refugee/immigrant issue is such a hot topic in Europe.

To use a simple example:

In a place where people are used to hearing church bells during the day, a mosque calling its followers to prayer is generally viewed as an intrusion. The bells and call to prayer serve the exact same function. Yet most people around here would vastly prefer hearing a bell ringing once or twice a day, over the call to prayer five times a day from a mosque. Does it mean everyone here hates Muslims? Not at all. It's simply because the bells are something everyone is used to, it's part of the established culture. Half the time I don't even notice the bells myself, but when I do they don't bother me one bit. Hearing a foreign language blasted over speakers across town would. It just doesn't fit.

(I'm not religious btw.)

Maybe people in your particular area of the world should learn to be a little more lenient towards others. Not stating that they aren't already, but I get the impression you don't seem to be to inviting of other cultures and ideas to your way of life.
I hope I am mistaken.

[Deleted]

Maybe people in your particular area of the world should learn to be a little more lenient towards others. Not stating that they aren't already, but I get the impression you don't seem to be to inviting of other cultures and ideas to your way of life.
I hope I am mistaken.

No Reason why one should be. Multiculturalism never had much support in sweden at least. You eithet conform or get out.

[Vash The Stampede]

Is "work" defined as "spending time that will be paid for" here?
I won't dispute that they spend a lot of time at work, but it doesn't seem very productive what they are doing there.
Now the question is why? And how do we solve this so that they can work less but more productively?

What you're talking about is productivity. I think in Germany they generally work less hours than Greece, but are more productive. In some cases they generally don't care how long you work so long as the job is done by the required time. But Germany is a country that produces cars and other quality products, while Greece's revenue is mostly from tourists and I think Olive Oil? So in a sense, it makes sense that the Greeks spend a lot of time doing nothing at their job, since their industry is all about vacations. Hence why Turkey is kinda angry at Greece over the islands in the Aegean Sea.

In order for Greece to be more productive they need to produce goods like Germany does. Manufacture cars or other products. Poland’s Prime Minister gave a copy of Witcher 2 to Obama as a gift, cause that's how proud he is of CD Projekt RED, a company based in Poland. So even something like that for Greece would be a good start.

But having a country in financial ruin is never going to have people rise from the ashes and produce. Why would they? They're too busy trying to stay alive. From what I understand the property in Greece is worth nothing due to high taxes. Greece isn't alone either, with Italy, Spain, and Portugal are all in just as bad of a situation or worse. Spain was so bad that Top Gear had fun running around their empty city and air port with their super cars. So it's not just a Greek thing either, but we're very focuses on Greece cause it makes for entertaining news.

[Allybeboba]

No Reason why one should be. Multiculturalism never had much support in sweden at least. You eithet conform or get out.

Almost like Germany in the 30's?

[Mayhem]

snip

Empty runways you say? Ask @Slant about BER. :P

[Slant]

Empty runways you say? Ask @Slant about BER. :P

We'll get it finished eventually. Even if it's the last thing Germany does. :P

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The financial crisis showed that Germans only care about Germans. Merkel refused Euro bonds and debt relief. This is why we won't let you in charge of taxation.

Merkel listened to Finland, who wanted Greece to die and rot. The stuff you're bitching about? That is the compromise. You don't want to know what the other countries actually wanted to do to Greece. But it's always easier to hit the biggest target, isn't it?

[Deleted]

should eradicate borders for all countries and become the united states of Earth.

[Mayhem]

We'll get it finished eventually. Even if it's the last thing Germany does. :P

No sure, that monster will be finished within our lifetime.

[Dellis0991]

What if the EU was dissolved and a new government was created similar to the United States? One that united all of Europe under a single governmental umbrella with a single goal. Your citizenship would be toward this U.S.E. and not your current "state". Europe would have one military, one government, one border, etc...

Too many fucking languages, too many cultures, too many grudges, Where will the capital be?...it would be a fucking logistical nightmare.

[Mystrome]

Maybe people in your particular area of the world should learn to be a little more lenient towards others. Not stating that they aren't already, but I get the impression you don't seem to be to inviting of other cultures and ideas to your way of life.
I hope I am mistaken.

If by 'particular area of the world' you mean Europe and its 53 countries, then sure.

Get off that high horse and just accept that things work differently over here. It has nothing to do with being lenient or not. It also has nothing to do with being inviting or not. It has everything to do with a long standing history and tradition, something the US lacks by default. It is just that: different.

There's no reason to act pretentious because you don't understand something. Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit further about Europe. As a thought process, the USE is interesting, but reality will demonstrate quickly and decisively why it'll not work. Ever.

[Mayhem]

If by 'particular area of the world' you mean Europe and its 53 countries, then sure.

Get off that high horse and just accept that things work differently over here. It has nothing to do with being lenient or not. It also has nothing to do with being inviting or not. It has everything to do with a long standing history and tradition, something the US lacks by default. It is just that: different.

There's no reason to act pretentious because you don't understand something. Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit further about Europe. As a thought process, the USE is interesting, but reality will demonstrate quickly and decisively why it'll not work. Ever.

Eh, you paint europe in pretty bad light. The people around here who are up in arms about different cultures and their influence are usually not in touch with other cultures at all. This changes quickly as soon as they get to know some foreigners and realize that /gasp they aren't all out to erase our culture. Actually we're pretty good at doing that ourselves.