Content can be challenging without gear scaling.

[Twilight Cultist]

I have seen many people today say that something isn't challenging if it can be made easier with gear. This is how WoW and pretty much any RPG have always worked. Even Dark Souls, the game that people praise as being the prime example of challenging gameplay, can be made easier with gear.

The new Solo Challenges are no different than any other form of difficult content in the game. At lower gear levels, it will be difficult to beat it. As you play the game and acquire more gear (whether that be in later tiers or later expansions), it will become easier to do.

PS: Most of the Solo Challenges can be done without having to commit to a raiding schedule to get gear (My warrior is currently Ilvl 892 just from Nethershard Tokens and Mythic+).

[Deleted]

It should be scaled to a set item level / template each time. Then it would be a real challenge, no outgearing.

[kaganpwnz]

It should be scaled to a set item level / template each time. Then it would be a real challenge, no outgearing.

Go play a moba if that is what you want

[LilSaihah]

Go play a moba if that is what you want

I already have left WoW to play another game. The treadmill's boring.

[faithbane]

Even Dark Souls, the game that people praise as being the prime example of challenging gameplay, can be made easier with gear.

Well shit, Try g+++ and see if gear helps.. Anyway, design based on move sets and punishing/rewarding mechanics is how you make a challenge not scale with gear. One of the bosses in demon souls had a move that if you failed to dodge it, would actually permanently lower your level by 1, each time you get hit.

Lets take the frost dk challenge for example. In phase1, he spam casts frost bolts, phase 2 you go from image to image till you find the real one, phase 3 you dodge balls.. Yay so challenging. Lets try it this way:

Phase 1 - Different kinds of casts with different interrupt orders that give the boss different buffs or gives you different debuffs based on what is interrupted/cast. Doesn't that sound like so much more challenging?

Phase 2 - Different type of images that reset the CD of different types of abilities you have like pillar, AMS, Sindragosa etc.. so you need to decide which image you need to jump to next. how about thaT?

phase 3 - You actually have to dodge different type of orbs and there are parts where you have to eat an orb but each orb has a different effect. if you AMS is off CD, you want to hit the orb that puts a massive dot on you because you can cancel it with AMS. If you WW is off CD you want to eat the orb that gives you a huge movement speed reduction cause it can cancel that etc etc..

See took me 5 mins to turn that boring linear ilvl scaling fight to something challenging..

[Twilight Cultist]

It should be scaled to a set item level / template each time. Then it would be a real challenge, no outgearing.

The point of the Solo Challenge isn't only for the 1% of the playerbase. Blizzard isn't going to spend that much time developing 7 completely different challenges that have to be doable by all 36 specs in that game. That is far too many resources put into something that most people aren't even going to participate in. So that compromise that that you can do it now if you are good enough, and have the prestige of having the unique skin before anyone else. If you can't do it now, you can try it later in the expansion and it will be easier. By that time the latter person has a higher (but not guaranteed) chance of getting it down.

[deniter]

Content should only be as challenging as your current level and gear makes it to be. Some of it should be trivial, some challenging, and some should always be impossible. That's why we play these games in the first place - to see more content. The ability to see it all on day one takes away what a game is all about. Wanna see it all at once? Go watch a movie.

[Kaleredar]

Well shit, Try g+++ and see if gear helps.. Anyway, design based on move sets and punishing/rewarding mechanics is how you make a challenge not scale with gear. One of the bosses in demon souls had a move that if you failed to dodge it, would actually permanently lower your level by 1, each time you get hit.

Lets take the frost dk challenge for example. In phase1, he spam casts frost bolts, phase 2 you go from image to image till you find the real one, phase 3 you dodge balls.. Yay so challenging. Lets try it this way:

Phase 1 - Different kinds of casts with different interrupt orders that give the boss different buffs or gives you different debuffs based on what is interrupted/cast. Doesn't that sound like so much more challenging?

Phase 2 - Different type of images that reset the CD of different types of abilities you have like pillar, AMS, Sindragosa etc.. so you need to decide which image you need to jump to next. how about thaT?

phase 3 - You actually have to dodge different type of orbs and there are parts where you have to eat an orb but each orb has a different effect. if you AMS is off CD, you want to hit the orb that puts a massive dot on you because you can cancel it with AMS. If you WW is off CD you want to eat the orb that gives you a huge movement speed reduction cause it can cancel that etc etc..

See took me 5 mins to turn that boring linear ilvl scaling fight to something challenging..

Then someone maths out the right way to do the fight and everyone just does that.

[Charge me Doctor]

Well shit, Try g+++ and see if gear helps.. Anyway, design based on move sets and punishing/rewarding mechanics is how you make a challenge not scale with gear. One of the bosses in demon souls had a move that if you failed to dodge it, would actually permanently lower your level by 1, each time you get hit.

Lets take the frost dk challenge for example. In phase1, he spam casts frost bolts, phase 2 you go from image to image till you find the real one, phase 3 you dodge balls.. Yay so challenging. Lets try it this way:

Phase 1 - Different kinds of casts with different interrupt orders that give the boss different buffs or gives you different debuffs based on what is interrupted/cast. Doesn't that sound like so much more challenging?

Phase 2 - Different type of images that reset the CD of different types of abilities you have like pillar, AMS, Sindragosa etc.. so you need to decide which image you need to jump to next. how about thaT?

phase 3 - You actually have to dodge different type of orbs and there are parts where you have to eat an orb but each orb has a different effect. if you AMS is off CD, you want to hit the orb that puts a massive dot on you because you can cancel it with AMS. If you WW is off CD you want to eat the orb that gives you a huge movement speed reduction cause it can cancel that etc etc..

See took me 5 mins to turn that boring linear ilvl scaling fight to something challenging..

So, that's you, who says that for content in WoW to be challenging (by your personal definition) it has to be remade into a different game with different design?

[Kaleredar]

So, that's you, who says that for content in WoW to be challenging (by your personal definition) it has to be remade into a different game with different design?

It needs to have the challenging gameplay of darksouls, wherin you spam dodge roll behind the boss and poke it in the ass a thousand times until it falls over dead.

[Charge me Doctor]

It needs to have the challenging gameplay of darksouls, wherin you spam dodge roll behind the boss and poke it in the ass a thousand times until it falls over dead.

WOah, be aware that if you fail dodge roll you'll be delevelled and will have to level up back again, complete you class hall, gear up through EN>ToV>NH, unlock your artifact again, build mage tower and then try again. That's what i call challenging gameplay!

[Kaleredar]

WOah, be aware that if you fail dodge roll you'll be delevelled and will have to level up back again, complete you class hall, gear up through EN>ToV>NH, unlock your artifact again, build mage tower and then try again. That's what i call challenging gameplay!

You're missing the most challenging part: when the boss' weakpoint clips through the wall so you can't hit it!

It's not a programming oversight if it's a gameplay facet!

[faithbane]

Then someone maths out the right way to do the fight and everyone just does that.

Ironically RNG is useful here.. This is not single player game from the 90s. You can randomize the spell cast order, movement, image type/location, number/type of orb spawn etc etc.

[Kaleredar]

Ironically RNG is useful here.. This is not single player game from the 90s. You can randomize the spell cast order, movement, image type/location, number/type of orb spawn etc etc.

Then you get a bunch of people pissed when they get some undoable combo again and again and again.

[faithbane]

So, that's you, who says that for content in WoW to be challenging (by your personal definition) it has to be remade into a different game with different design?

Are you retarded? The title of the topic is "Content can be challenging without gear scaling" and this is my example how. What part of this forum/post you didn't get? Also having to prioritize your spells and being have to press something other than your damage rotation is remaking it into a different game? Drama much? lol

[Sencha]

It should be scaled to a set item level / template each time. Then it would be a real challenge, no outgearing.

Fully agree. Time to go back to exclusive rewards. Giving everything to everyone doesn't work, even in real world.

[Deleted]

Gear making challenges easier means that eventually the most of player will obtain them.

I can't see why should everyone be allowed to have them.
I'm more skilled than you playing that spec? Then why is my reward only "obtaining those skins faster than someone who had to wait for gear to boost him"? If I'm better than you I should have something that proves that.

It's not "only elitist", cause even a less skilled player can focus, try it 100 times more than me and obtain the reward. I wouldn't mind that, because that would mean I simply obtained that skin before someome who had to succeed in the same challenge.

Why should someone who had a much easier challenge get my samd reward?

[Sensimilla]

Content should never be scaled. If a boar has 100 HP it has 100 HP, having it suddenly have 200 HP because of what I'm wearing makes no sense what so ever.

I agree on this. It has been like that since always, and noone ever complained, why change it now?

[melodramocracy]

I have seen many people today say that something isn't challenging if it can be made easier with gear. This is how WoW and pretty much any RPG have always worked. Even Dark Souls, the game that people praise as being the prime example of challenging gameplay, can be made easier with gear.

The new Solo Challenges are no different than any other form of difficult content in the game. At lower gear levels, it will be difficult to beat it. As you play the game and acquire more gear (whether that be in later tiers or later expansions), it will become easier to do.

PS: Most of the Solo Challenges can be done without having to commit to a raiding schedule to get gear (My warrior is currently Ilvl 892 just from Nethershard Tokens and Mythic+).

Try for them while you can, I suspect. As most players start to head towards revered with Legionfall, a requirement for flight, focus on tower building is going to slow way down. Not to mention that you aren't going to see the MT get built again for another 2 weeks.

By the time you truly outgear the challenge, you won't be able to even access it.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree on this. It has been like that since always, and noone ever complained, why change it now?

Because trivialized content leads to a feeling of in-game tedium. This is something any game developer would like to avoid.

Blizzard has somewhat resolved this issue in instanced content by giving players a difficulty slider. That is a bit tougher to implement in an open world situation, so scaling is the obvious solution.

You think people are screaming now, wait till legacy content gets the same treatment.

[quras]

Content should never be scaled. If a boar has 100 HP it has 100 HP, having it suddenly have 200 HP because of what I'm wearing makes no sense what so ever.

I agree with this.

Nothing says tedious to a game like doing the above. It might have already been somewhat tedious, repeatable, daily content but adding more tediousness to it isn't needed at all.