Time for German leadership?

[Slant]

America created the modern west. You probably talk about democracy itself, and the magna carta. So yes, the core values were created in Europe.

What are Western values if not democracies built upon human rights and the fundamental idea of cooperation and tolerance of dissent?

[Deleted]

Rym's logic is really well embodied by his avatar on this one

[Deleted]

One that would kill his political opponents.
What is democratic about that? How does it relate to liberty? They completely ignored what the country itself wanted.

America is both

a) a democracy and a republic

and

b) imperialistic

Those two characterization define their foreign politics.

Chile was a imperialistic move. They tried to prevent another Cuba. The socialist candidate would have made the same as Pinochet, creating a dictatorship just with soviet alignment.

[JohnBrown1917]

And you pretend Belarus was created by american influence?

What? no?
Is still about Europe?

[Deleted]

What are Western values if not democracies built upon human rights and the fundamental idea of cooperation and tolerance of dissent?

Well, the west also includes the culture, and the american culture has a major influence on europe and even the rest of the world.

If we talk about the west, we should include all its values and concepts.

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What? no?
Is still about Europe?

But in the context you said america created dictatorships. So how is Belarus related to that?

[JohnBrown1917]

The socialist candidate would have made the same as Pinochet, creating a dictatorship just with soviet alignment.

That impossible to know, but that does not change they overthrew a ton of governments.
Its niave thinking to think the US claims to support democracy out of its good of its heart, or did they go to the ME with good intention?

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Well, the west also includes the culture, and the american culture has a major influence on europe and even the rest of the world.

If we talk about the west, we should include all its values and concepts.

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But in the context you said america created dictatorships. So how is Belarus related to that?

No, I said they where created in SA, never said anything about Europe.

[Deleted]

No, I said they where created in SA, never said anything about Europe.

But we talked in context about america created dictatorships. So Belarus is no example.

Germany actually is a counterexample. America exported democracy and capitalism to our country. After we created a lot of suffering in a totalitarian dictatorship.

As a german, i am happy the american government chosed the marshal plan those days. We owe the USA a lot.

Even more i feel very unhappy about the way america takes currently. Into the hands of a questionable "deal maker", who thinks democracy is about making the most money out of his holiday site.

[Slant]

Well, the west also includes the culture, and the american culture has a major influence on europe and even the rest of the world.

If we talk about the west, we should include all its values and concepts.

Western values are not linked to cultures. Especially when we're talking about politics and things like democracies, dictatorships and how the US may or may not be responsible for either one of those, culture really doesn't enter the discussion.

[JohnBrown1917]

But we talked in context about america created dictatorships. So Belarus is no example.
.

I never used it as example...
But South American countries are, why do you handwave those away?

[Deleted]

Western values are not linked to cultures. Especially when we're talking about politics and things like democracies, dictatorships and how the US may or may not be responsible for either one of those, culture really doesn't enter the discussion.

No, culture is a big part of it. The liberal democracy is a basic prerequisite to create the rich culture we have in europe and america. The liberal lifestyle is a part of every cultural development of the last 60 years in europe, and defines the west as much as the old european values do.

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I never used it as example...
But South American countries are, why do you handwave those away?

I dont headwave them away. I just say that Allende would not have been different, he just would have become a communist/socialist dictator. America tried to prevent that, in special based on their wish not to have another Cuba around.

Also, Nixon was in power those days. And we know how Nixons presidency ended.

[Cybran]

Financial times are wrong as usual. Germany needs to be sidelined and forced to abide by market rules instead of getting richer at the expense of the rest of Europe.

[JohnBrown1917]

No, culture is a big part of it. The liberal democracy is a basic prerequisite to create the rich culture we have in europe and america. The liberal lifestyle is a part of every cultural development of the last 60 years in europe, and defines the west as much as the old european values do.

And credit for that still does not belong to the US, atleast not here.

I dont headwave them away. I just say that Allende would not have been different, he just would have become a communist/socialist dictator. America tried to prevent that, in special based on their wish not to have another Cuba around.

Any sources he would have become that? And its also far from the only coup the US supported.
Not to mention its not an excuse, the US only likes democratic countries that vote how they want them to vote.

[Deleted]

Financial times are wrong as usual. Germany needs to be sidelined and forced to abide by market rules instead of getting richer at the expense of the rest of Europe.

We just buy the rest of europe at the end.

[JohnBrown1917]

Financial times are wrong as usual. Germany needs to be sidelined and forced to abide by market rules instead of getting richer at the expense of the rest of Europe.

Haha? what the hell, you and your crazy german hate again.
we benefit greatly from our trade with the Germans, so no thanks.

[Deleted]

And credit for that still does not belong to the US, atleast not here.

But here it does. Just compare West germany with east germany.

Any sources he would have become that?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ob...e-2034138.html

Quote:

When Allende, a socialist heading the Unidad Popular [Popular Unity] coalition with Corvalan's Communist Party support, won the presidency in 1970, President Richard Nixon was more than uneasy. He was already fighting communists in Vietnam and had urged the CIA to do all they could do keep Allende and his communist allies out of power. After Pinochet's forces stormed the presidential palace in Santiago on 11 September 1973, Allende was found shot dead and Pinochet took power as a military dictator, the US denied directly backing the coup but Nixon's Secretary of State Henry Kissinger admitted: "we helped them ... create the conditions."

[Slant]

No, culture is a big part of it. The liberal democracy is a basic prerequisite to create the rich culture we have in europe and america. The liberal lifestyle is a part of every cultural development of the last 60 years in europe, and defines the west as much as the old european values do.

This is factually untrue. China has a culture that rivals if not surpasses Western culture and they have never had a real democracy for more than a few decades. Ever. Same goes for the Arabic and Persian culture. Some of the richest cultural phases in humanity, if not most of them, happened during types of Government that were not democracies.

Don't forget, democracy is still a very new concept. Oh, we have toyed around with it for a long time, but it failed and failed. Even now, we're not sure if democracy is really the best way to run a country. And still some of the best pieces of culture were created without having a democracy.

So no, culture is decidedly not linked to democracies. At all. Ever. Never has been, never will be.

[Deleted]

This is factually untrue. China has a culture that rivals if not surpasses Western culture and they have never had a real democracy for more than a few decades. Ever. Same goes for the Arabic and Persian culture. Some of the richest cultural phases in humanity, if not most of them, happened during types of Government that were not democracies.

But we talk about a context of the west. And neither China nor Arabia or Persia are or were part of the West. So if we talk about western culture, it is actually no argument to counter with chinese culture.

Don't forget, democracy is still a very new concept.

No, it isnt. The term "democracy" first appeared in ancient Greek political and philosophical thought in the city-state of Athens during classical antiquity. The word comes from demos, "common people" and kratos, strength. Led by Cleisthenes, Athenians established what is generally held as the first democracy in 508–507 BC.

Oh, we have toyed around with it for a long time, but it failed and failed.

Democracies very nature is to be allowed to fail. That is its greatest danger. If the people decide to vote someone into office who doesnt value democracy, but wants to install a dictatorship, he will be able to that. It just costs time to get there. Democracies die slowly.

Even now, we're not sure if democracy is really the best way to run a country. And still some of the best pieces of culture were created without having a democracy.

No, actually we are in the best phase. Without slavery. Without a king who rules absolutely. Without lords and ladies from gods grace. This is something we need to preserve, as much as possible.

Oh, and about the "best".. we are both from germany. What is actually great about military marches and a well done goose step? Because that is old german culture. Militaristic.

So no, culture is decidedly not linked to democracies. At all. Ever. Never has been, never will be.

Sure it is. Our current culture in america in europe is mainly based on liberal thinking and the ability to change your leaders whenever they are incompetent just through election. Free speech is a prerequisite for literature and journalism. The freedom of science is the prerequisite for fast technical evolution. The most innovative technologies dont come from dictatorships, but from the west.

Social media with different opinions (as like this forum) would not exist without the western culture.

This forum exists only because of pop culture. And pop culture is a western part of modern cultural influence.

[dextersmith]

What propaganda is op selling?

[Deleted]

What hogwash.

Why would we want a bigger Military? So we can send our Children off to die in Americas wars? To increase the number of refugees? Waste money that could be better spend elsewere?

The Bund does not expansion. It needs reform. It needs a upgrade to its equipment. It does not need to be larger but more specialized.

anything else than a skynet controlled terminator army is unrealistic ?

Its being worked on!

[Deleted]

Nowadays, if robots would build an army, pushing would be a legit counter measure completely taking the opponent out of combat.