Blue Response to BM in Class Development Forums (Wild Call Changes)

[Turtel]

I seriously doubt that they are going to implement a new and untested mechanics instead of a simpler solution of a fixed reduction. No other class is punished for having more haste by introducing what you describe. All trinkets have a fixed time associated with cooldown reduction, not to mention abilities of the hunter class itself. I would bet all legendaries on my hunter that it would either be a fixed 3 sec time reduction from a proc, or (unlikely but still possible, Blizz acts in mysterious ways) it would be a positive change of 3sec + your haste level.
Making a new proc mechanics when 3 sec reduction is punished by having more haste will not be understood by majority of the player base. Just imagine the wording on it: your cooldown is reduced by 25% of its current maximum each time Wild Call procs. No other class in the game does that, and it is unlikely that will do that in this expansion. Remember the current theme - simplification and pruning of hunters to the extreme.

It wasn't my suggestion, it's what the developer has stated.

They specifically said that the 3 second reduction was affected by haste, here's the direct quote:
"The base proc chance will be doubled and the cooldown reduction per proc will be 3.0 sec (affected by haste), roughly half the average expected value of current live Wild Call procs. Baseline, the amount of total Dire Beast casts and Dire Beast uptime should be roughly the same as on live" (parts bolded for emphasis)

So we know for sure that it is not a static 3 second reduction. There could be some ambiguity as to whether the 3 seconds is reduced or increased by haste, but this is clarified by the second part that I bolded. In order for the total number of Dire Frenzy casts to remain "roughly the same as live" it is necessarily the case that the 3 seconds is reduced by haste rather than increased, because this is how it currently works on live. Their specifically stated goal is to halve the effect of each proc, but double the proc chance. At 0% haste, we currently experience a 6 second cooldown reduction per proc on average, and this is halved to 3 seconds come 7.2.5. At 20% haste, we currently experience a 5 second cooldown reduction per proc on average, and this is halved to 2.5 seconds come 7.2.5.

If haste instead increased the 3 second reduction, we'd see massive increases in the amount of casts of Dire Frenzy, especially when you consider things like Bloodlust. This would just be completely inconsistent with what the developer stated.

Reducing the absolute value of the number of seconds reduced is not really a 'punishment' for having haste. The cooldown of Dire Frenzy reduces with haste, so you don't need to reduce the cooldown as much to have the same effect. As I mentioned earlier, you'll gain 0.25 uses of Dire Frenzy per Wild Call proc regardless of how much haste you have; you're not really 'losing' anything by gaining haste. (Actually it's 0.21875 uses of Dire Frenzy per proc on average, once you include the clipping issue when procs occur with very little time left on the cooldown).

[Bepples]

As for the legendary wrists becoming one of the two legendaries of choice, consider that CotW's value relies on the Thunderslash trait which is highly likely to be nerfed; I don't think Blizzard is happy with one trait making up so much of your DPS, especially considering it's not a gold trait and it's so much better than other specs' traits in the same spot. This is, of course, uncertain: we all thought the tuning madness of 6.2 or 7.1.5 wouldn't make it out of PTR and look how those situations turned out. I'm just saying that it's a little early to stake everything on CotW.

[Chickensoup23]

As for the legendary wrists becoming one of the two legendaries of choice, consider that CotW's value relies on the Thunderslash trait which is highly likely to be nerfed; I don't think Blizzard is happy with one trait making up so much of your DPS, especially considering it's not a gold trait and it's so much better than other specs' traits in the same spot. This is, of course, uncertain: we all thought the tuning madness of 6.2 or 7.1.5 wouldn't make it out of PTR and look how those situations turned out. I'm just saying that it's a little early to stake everything on CotW.

I would be okay with nerfing Thunderlash and buffing Cobra Commander. Thunderlash does like 13% of my DPS and Cobra Commander does like 0.4% on some fights. Shit, it can't even crit. I wonder how they fucked up balance so bad so that one trait can do 25 times the damage of the other one. Insane difference.

Also, I hope they don't nerf it too much. It's the first time in ages that I can compete with the likes of Locks, Warriors, DHs and whatnot. I'm in a semi-hardcore mythic guild (8/10M) and before this patch, I would get regularly smacked by most classes.

[Deleted]

I would be okay with nerfing Thunderlash and buffing Cobra Commander. Thunderlash does like 13% of my DPS and Cobra Commander does like 0.4% on some fights. Shit, it can't even crit. I wonder how they fucked up balance so bad so that one trait can do 25 times the damage of the other one. Insane difference.

Also, I hope they don't nerf it too much. It's the first time in ages that I can compete with the likes of Locks, Warriors, DHs and whatnot. I'm in a semi-hardcore mythic guild (8/10M) and before this patch, I would get regularly smacked by most classes.

13% on ST show me log even trinket and bracers wont give you that much.

[Feanoro]

The thing is, with the 2 charges of Dire Beast the gameplay is much smoother.

Careful, that's what MM said about SW and original PS, and we all know what happened. They're clearly listening to the minority that thinks keystrokes per minute is skill.

[Kavorka]

if i am a sad hunter without shoulders atm.... should i go for shoulder tokens or now immediately go for wrists?
Got in legendairies: bm (belt), MM (boots), general (prydaz, sephuz, roots, kj trinket).

been trying to get lucky with shoulders for 5k nethershards.... but so far not happend... now i wonder if i should go for the wild call wrists using 5k shards...

Pretty much in the same boat. At this point I am holding off on spending shards until a clearer picture of what slot I should be aiming for is known.

[Yuuseki]

This is wrong.
Wild Call cooldown reduction will scale negatively with haste as not to double dip.

We don't know that.
You stated a reasonable theory, but it's still just a theory. Haste might very well increase CDR of Wild Call procs at the end.

[Gaaz]

As of right now, we can be 99% certain that new Wild Call procs are not affected by haste in any way. Data mining showed that 3sec cd reduction is static. What a surprise, developers went the easy way and did not start inventing new mechanics mid expansion.
First of all, that translates into a 70% nerf to Mantle effectiveness in the long battle with no pauses scenario. Obviously, if there are gaps in combat that allow you to regenerate extra stacks "for free", having a second charge will still make burst windows after that stronger. But overall we are looking at a 50% nerf to the Mantle effect at the very least.
Secondly, haste and crit just went up significantly in BM stat weight. On live, haste and crit partially compete with each other. The more haste you have, the less DB resets are worth in terms of cd reduction time. And that diminishes crit. After 7.2.5 they will be much closer to each other and less suffer from diminishing returns.
Third, your BiS legendaries will almost certainly include the belt and one of the following - Boots for ST damage, or Ring / Trinket for general raiding and mythic +. Bracers will still be decent as long as you have the Convergence. Mantle will barely be adequate for Mythic + but hardly useful in raiding, outside of an initial pull.
Fourth, OwtP gets a slight buff in effectiveness, especially for non mantle users. Not sure if we will use it though anyways.
Fifth, these changes are a buff to BM in general, but a nerf to the top performing legendary combination. One can assume that spec performance as a whole will not change much, but you would have to replace your Mantle, if you have one, for some other legendary. Mantle users WILL see a significant drop in performance, while the rest are effectively buffed.
All is based on data mining results and IMHO of course.

[JoshuaNLG]

This is why BM should've had 2 charges baseline from the start and the shoulders being something else entirely.

They can't balance the shoulders without messing around with other passives/talents because how do you nerf the shoulders? "Dire frenzy now has .5 additional charges"? I really do hope these wild call changes don't go live because they make the spec feel sluggish for those with and without the shoulders.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I'd much rather have DF off CD more often than just have 2 charges of it. Like, how simple-minded can people get? "Make 2 charges baseline!" somehow trumps being able to use the ability more often? Really?

If they change their minds and do make 2 charges baseline, I'd like to see DF/DB off the GCD as well.

[JoshuaNLG]

I'd much rather have DF off CD more often than just have 2 charges of it. Like, how simple-minded can people get? "Make 2 charges baseline!" somehow trumps being able to use the ability more often? Really?

-_-'

You can use DF more often with 2 charges baseline without wasting procs? Do you not understand how Wild Call works with the shoulders or something?

[Queen of Hamsters]

You can use DF more often with 2 charges baseline without wasting procs? Do you not understand how Wild Call works with the shoulders or something?

I'll take improvement and a buff to the spec as a whole over designing it around the 2-charge idea. Testing remains but if the ideas they have for the changes translate to the gameplay, it sounds way more attractive than just having 2 charges and no other changes to Wild Call.

[JoshuaNLG]

I'll take improvement and a buff to the spec as a whole over designing it around the 2-charge idea. Testing remains but if the ideas they have for the changes translate to the gameplay, it sounds way more attractive than just having 2 charges and no other changes to Wild Call.

Well I'll give you my feedback then as I've tried it on the PTR.

It's not an improvement or buff to the spec with or without the shoulders, it's a nerf to the shoulders tremendously (makes them next to useless) and it also slows down the pace of the spec for those without the shoulders too.

It's not a good change, it's a horrible one. It sounds great on paper, in execution it's awful.

[Deleted]

Yeah well i doubt there's ever gonna be a perfect balance between legendaries, so who knows, maybe the bracers are gonna be the best now, who knows. 7.2.5 is far off but i don't expect any good changes to our gameplay.

[Eapoe]

They could have made the charges baseline and changes the shoulders to this new system they are changing the spec to. Just give them an extra 10-40% chance to proc Wild Call with 2 charges baseline and call it a day. They achieve a slight buff to the spec and nerf the shoulders like they want to.

[aikanaro]

It's not really the MM nerf so much as the massive buff BM got from Thunderslash. BM went from the lowest DPS ranged spec to 2nd/3rd behind Frost and Affliction.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#boss=1863
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#boss=1842
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#boss=1867

Thunderslash is a 10-12% dps increase for a single artifact point. That's enough to go from bottom to top considering how close most ranged specs were already.

Thunderslash is only good if you have cof and the bracers.. my thunderslash is only like 1% of my total damage because I have neither.... cobra commander is a whopping 2 to 4% my damage.. that's after the ts nerf and cobra commander buff..

[gushDH]

The shoulders still seem inviting if you play with Dire Frenzy, since the idea is to keep the buff up as much as possible, so there might be times where you have to bank a bit more than 1 charge, to refresh it just before it ends.

[aikanaro]

You do all realize that one with the pack will make the process chance on wild call 100% right? That gives you 8 seconds to get 1 crit which will keep the uptime of dire frenzy at 100%..

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Someone said nerf to all bm hunters not just ones with shoulders.

Nope.. as a bm hunter with 25% haste, 25 crit, and not using owtp, I rarely get to 3 stacks... after this change I'll be hard pressed not to keep 3 stacks... more so if I talent owtp after the patch.

- - - Updated - - -

Someone said crit and haste are almost equal.

Wrong.. I've got 25% haste (which is way more rating number) and crit and 70% mastery.. all sims show my haste and mastery almost equal with crit being 1 to 2 dps per point lower than those 2 and vers 1 to 2 behind crit.

- - - Updated - - -

Ugh... quotes aren't working awesome..

[Tycondriel]

The shoulders still seem inviting if you play with Dire Frenzy, since the idea is to keep the buff up as much as possible, so there might be times where you have to bank a bit more than 1 charge, to refresh it just before it ends.

Honestly, I don't have the math to back it up, but my understanding is that the above is going to be accurate. Since we're holding charges with the mantle to refresh DF buffs, wouldn't the above still apply? I don't see it being THAT big of a deal.

Granted, I'll be honest, I just got the shoulders last night so I'm hoping the above is true.