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  1. #41
    well,
    i refused to give up on my Survival, i just love melee so much, and before legion i lvled it up just so i could have anoter melee spec.
    the fact that so few people played it, and that it was unique, kept me going...

    now, i'm 890, i only have the 2set, but i REALLY REALLY like it!!
    you always have things to do, harpoon is amazing for question (with the kill-reset), synergy between our artifact and mongoose is great, things die super fast, very fun spec imo!
    gets some getting used to though, u gotta have the mindset that in some cases, its ok for dots to drop off, and its ok not using some abilities (like Raptor strike, if u cant fit it in, i hardly use it)

    i'm very pleased with our current DPS status, sure, you have to work hell a lot harder then most melee classes, but its worth it.
    if u want to be a huntard - go BM

  2. #42
    I created an SV alt just to not mess up with my MM legs and waited my time to shine (aka a melee going casual) to finaly bring it as a main and it's been a blast.

    Looking forward for the new set but I fear that the +20% damage overall might be too strong (with bracers I hit 46% uptime during the fight) and the new 4p might fall behind.

    Btw WoM need some practise and after knowing the fight you will prolly never lose it or maybe once, it's really the mecanic that require the deepest control on our rotation and priorities because the more you lose time by refreshing it too soon like @3s and not around <1s the less extra ability will be triggered aka traps and lacerate.

    Check the difference in SimC between "Good" and "Elite" it's unbelieavable

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Khrux View Post
    This is a great resource for Survival. (Tip: Use tabs along the top)

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...PsBX6U/pubhtml

    Unfortunately with AP farming being a thing again, I haven't really had any time to play Survival. When I start to hit the AP wall on BM I'll go back and work on SV a bit, although I was hoping we'd see some blue comments on Survival ahead of 7.2.5 considering its a brand new spec and I'd like to know what Blizz think of it in terms of performance and usability.
    Great doc, thanks. I have a question though. At opener I see that Fury of the Eagle is not used at all, even at 6 stack of Mongoose and our CD. Why is that?
    Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    Great doc, thanks. I have a question though. At opener I see that Fury of the Eagle is not used at all, even at 6 stack of Mongoose and our CD. Why is that?
    Fury of the Eagle is used at the end of your mongoose windows, meaning when you have reached 6 stacks of mongoose fury and have spammed as much mongoose as possible while at 6 stacks, you then use Fury of the Eagle right before the mongoose fury buff expires.

    Mongoose fury lasts 14 secs which starts from the first mongoose strike you use. So basically when mongoose fury has 1-2secs left on its duration you cast Fury of the Eagle. The reason this isn't listed in the openers is because the amount of mongoose strikes you can fit in the opener before FotE is based on your haste/mastery/procs from pet attacks etc.

    Its worth noting however, that with the Snake Hunter talent you can reach 6 stacks quickly and reliably then using Aspect at 6stacks already helps you spam high powered mongoose strikes at 6 stacks while gaining the benefits of the Aspect(+10%crit and +30% dmg from golden trait).

    Lastly, by timing it correctly you can actually clip your Fury of the Eagle into the end of Aspect of the Eagle. Mongoose Fury is a 14sec buff, Fury of the Eagle is a 4 sec channel and Aspect lasts 10secs, so you can see where this all lines up nicely. By using Aspect a bit late in your opener you can avail of 6secs worth of Aspect spamming your mongoose strikes and the last 4 seconds of Aspect during Fury of the Eagle(again with +10% crit and +30% dmg).

    Disclaimer: I'm pretty sure its actually more dps to just spam the hell out of mongoose strikes at 6 strikes for the full duration of Aspect than it is to clip your Fury of the Eagle into the end of Aspect. For AoE/cleave that may change, but its worth calling out the option to clip Aspect/Fury if or when you want to.
    Last edited by Khrux; 2017-04-24 at 02:10 PM.

  5. #45
    IMO, they should remove damage from Explosive Trap and make it utility instead of part of the rotation. Make it knockback everyone in range when it's triggered. Waylay makes it knockback farther.

    I'd also like them to revise the Mortal Wounds talent. They could add one of these effects to it:
    - Mongoose Bite extends your Lacerate effect on the target by 2 seconds.
    - Applying Lacerate gives you one Mongoose Bite charge.
    - Focus cost of Lacerate reduced by 10.

    Any of those effects would improve rotation and add value to that talent.

  6. #46
    Get rid of lacerate. It doesn't do anything and is annoying to keep up.

    Get traps out of the ST rotation at least.

  7. #47
    Also it's kinda funny thematically. Like, if you run through someone with a spear, bleeding is the last of their worries. It's not a sword or a dagger it's a fucking spear

  8. #48
    I always found it funny that warriors have all these hard hitting skills and then you look at "Rend".....Like all the other skills they have didn't already cut the target or bludgeon them to bits?!

    I mean why with all of the different shit going on in Survival's rotation do we have this basic ass "applies a bleed" skill?

    Plus the tier20 set completely revolves around lacerate too, sigh. We'll prob get a tier21 focused on fucking traps
    Last edited by Khrux; 2017-04-24 at 02:34 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    Should become ranged spec again <3
    i would co-sign this a million times. If SV had a ranged option I feel like it would of been received a lot better. Till then leave it out back where it belonged back in vanilla(lolmelee). If it got the treatment like monks had when they launched it would of been better where you where mainly ranged but you hand melee options and then transitioned to melee or just expanded on melee and ranged it would of been smoother and better received.
    Last edited by idunnowatdo; 2017-04-24 at 04:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne01 View Post
    I believe your hands should be cut off. As I feel your opinions prove your not fit to type.
    Gen Off-Topic being hella ruthless

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    Get rid of lacerate. It doesn't do anything and is annoying to keep up.

    Get traps out of the ST rotation at least.
    Don't think that will happen anytime soon considering the next tier bonuses revolve around Lacerate.

  11. #51
    Does anyone have a good Weak Aura for Mongoose fury?

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    We are the rare, the few, the proud, the melee Hunters.

    Survival is in a pretty good spot right now in 7.2 and this thread will be used to discuss Survival since there wasn't a thread up for it.
    *Raises transmogged spear with pride* THERE ARE DOZENS OF US! DOZENS!

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    We are the rare, the few, the proud, the melee Hunters.

    Survival is in a pretty good spot right now in 7.2 and this thread will be used to discuss Survival since there wasn't a thread up for it.
    Hello, ex-main progression survival here. I dont want to drag down your optimism but i have to ask: What is a "good spot" for you?

    Because, we definitely see differently "a good spot." Because, by your wording "a good spot" for you looks like a good DPS.
    For me, its all about good gameplay and class mechanics, were we fail badly. Definitely not in a "good spot."

    We perform the best at mid level haste, everything that goes over certain point just breaks our gameplay in more ways than one.
    Our explosive trap still doesnt work always as it should.
    Rotation feels clunky and our main DPS attack is RNG based.
    Our main generator, Flanking Strike, has huge designers flaw. It doesnt work if your pet is not around, and when you switch targets that are distanced - your pet lags behind.
    Our Artifact is quite underwhelming and to do most DPS we require ATLEAST 6GCDs, while most other specs use it in 1gcd.
    We suffer from insane button bloat (9active rotational buttons compared to, lets say paladins 5 or Enances 5, warriors 4...)
    Our damage suffers badly as soon as we are not connecting with a target as most of our DPS comes from mongoose fury window, our bleeds and debuffs.
    For optimal performance we actually need to use macros [@player] and [@cursor]

    And thats just whats on top of my head. Its far from "good spot" if you mean it globally. Spec it self feels like it can do faaar far more than it does, but its somehow tripping on its own feet and preventing you to do more.
    I would rather play spec that is mid pack but its gameplay flows, rather than being among top melees with ultra clunky spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    I can't really play any melee [dps] spec other than survival, the others are just not as fun imo. Havoc feels like playing the game on cheat codes, Ret is a bit clunky. I may try out assin or Sub, I have a sub at 65 and they're fun but I don't know how fun they are at max level/artifact.
    Now, dont get me wrong, im not here to bash you or drag this topic down, i do welcome your enthusiasm, i had same amount of it and i was among first and rares who defended survival when Hunter uproar happened.
    BUT due to all well known issues, some of them that i just mentioned, Blizzard not giving ANY attention to it and ignoring pages and pages of feedback forced me down to two choices, be benched or reroll. .2.5 changes started to roll out, once again survival, and hunters in general, not that they are not mentioned, they received a nerf.

    This just ease my decision to reroll to a different class till survival is looked at.

    My suggestion to you - try Enhance Shammy, i switchet to enhance and sadly letting Survival being an alt.
    Quote Originally Posted by hydrium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel SnackyCakes View Post
    I play a Monk, so I'm already more mobile than my Demon Hunter.
    You might run a straight line faster than me but you're walking around that mountain, over the bridge at the ravine and down the trail of any hills. I'm going over them.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    Hello, ex-main progression survival here. I dont want to drag down your optimism but i have to ask: What is a "good spot" for you?

    Because, we definitely see differently "a good spot." Because, by your wording "a good spot" for you looks like a good DPS.
    For me, its all about good gameplay and class mechanics, were we fail badly. Definitely not in a "good spot."
    Well, hello Gurg

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    We perform the best at mid level haste, everything that goes over certain point just breaks our gameplay in more ways than one.
    Since when having haste breakpoints to include one MB per breakpoint, why having more haste hurts our gameplay in any way ? Would be awesome to dev this part for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    Our explosive trap still doesnt work always as it should.
    I never fail my Explosiv trap, can you tell me on which encounter you are facing issues ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    Rotation feels clunky and our main DPS attack is RNG based.
    With proper stats it's really rare to face MB stack starving, and when it happens you may be lucky on the other side and win 3 MB stacks at the end of your window, 3 crit and it's 9M damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    Our main generator, Flanking Strike, has huge designers flaw. It doesnt work if your pet is not around, and when you switch targets that are distanced - your pet lags behind.
    I manualy cast celerity when our pets need to move fast and even on fights with frequent huge harpoon distance like Gul'dan MM, the pet follows correctly. Keep an eye on your pet, but I agree it can be simplified by adding a "blink strike" component to the ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    Our Artifact is quite underwhelming and to do most DPS we require ATLEAST 6GCDs, while most other specs use it in 1gcd.
    And ours can do 20M damage on AoE fights while doing 4M ST, it's quite strong and sometimes overcomes the others artifact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    We suffer from insane button bloat (9active rotational buttons compared to, lets say paladins 5 or Enances 5, warriors 4...)
    Maybe having at least one spec that has a little bit of decision making and wasn't pruned like the others during WoD and Legion isn't negative for the game. If you compare a difficult spec to casual spec design .... well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    Our damage suffers badly as soon as we are not connecting with a target as most of our DPS comes from mongoose fury window, our bleeds and debuffs.
    Like mostly all other melee right ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    For optimal performance we actually need to use macros @Player] and [@cursor]
    Like the mage blizzard, like binding shot, like flare, like the destro fire raing thingy,, heroic leap for warriors, abilities like these always existed and we just won one mecanic with the @cursor. If you use @Player you just seems lazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    And thats just whats on top of my head. Its far from "good spot" if you mean it globally. Spec it self feels like it can do faaar far more than it does, but its somehow tripping on its own feet and preventing you to do more.
    I would rather play spec that is mid pack but its gameplay flows, rather than being among top melees with ultra clunky spec.
    For me SV totaly has his spot in the melee pack and it's quietly refreshing having to connect the dots in my head to play WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    Now, dont get me wrong, im not here to bash you or drag this topic down, i do welcome your enthusiasm, i had same amount of it and i was among first and rares who defended survival when Hunter uproar happened.
    I don't think what you did can be considered like bashing tbh, it's just your opinion ^^.

    BUT due to all well known issues, some of them that i just mentioned, Blizzard not giving ANY attention to it and ignoring pages and pages of feedback forced me down to two choices, be benched or reroll. .2.5 changes started to roll out, once again survival, and hunters in general, not that they are not mentioned, they received a nerf.

    This just ease my decision to reroll to a different class till survival is looked at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurg View Post
    My suggestion to you - try Enhance Shammy, i switchet to enhance and sadly letting Survival being an alt.
    Hope you enjoy spamming Stormstrike rng like MB stacks rng dude
    Last edited by Trapstarz; 2017-04-25 at 07:42 AM.

  15. #55
    Lets discuss the clusterfuckery of Survival's "spinning plates" design, the reason having so much ability/rotation bloat is a problem is how terribly it flows together. I get your a fan of Survival @Trapstarz but defending shit design isn't good for anyone. Survival is fun but its very very rough and poorly designed, arguing that point is just pure ignorance and masochism.

    1. Buff/Debuff durations (including trait benefits)
    Lacerate 12sec, no CD - potential uptime of 100%
    Serpent Sting 15secs, no CD - potential uptime of 100%
    Caltrops 15secs, 12sec CD - potential uptime of 100%
    Mok'Nathal 10secs, no CD - potential uptime of 100%
    Explosive trap 10secs, 24sec CD - potential uptime of 42%(rounded up)
    Steel Trap 30secs, 48sec CD - potential uptime of 63%(rounded up)
    Crows 15secs, 60 cd (potential resets) - potential uptime of 25%

    Now at first you might think those durations don't seem that bad,in order of duration - 10,10,12,12,15,15,30 there isn't any wildly different durations right? Well the problem kicks in when you have multiple effects coming from the same skill but different durations or when skills have CDs. Not to mention the sheer fucking volume of stuff to track here?....

    Example: Serpent Sting + Mok'Nathal - one has a 10sec duration, the other has a 15sec duration and both can be applied at the same time by one skill. Problem is Mok'nathal forces you to cast Raptor every 8-9secs minimum which is a waste of 5secs worth of Serpent Sting. At a generous 1 raptor per 8secs you spend 7.5 globals per minute to maintain Mok'nathal while Serpent Sting just happens for free because of the lower Mok'Nathal duration. Now If the duration of Mok'Nathal was adjusted to 15secs, again at a generous 1 raptor per 13secs you would spend 4.6 globals per minute to maintain Mok'nathal.
    Result: Just by aligning SS+WotM you could regain ~3 gcds per minute(haste variable) and you'd have a single skill applying 1 buff and 1 debuff at the same duration. The additional GCDs+Focus can be spent on more Flanking Strike, our main generator. That is elegant design.

    2. Uptimes/Windows
    As seen above the uptimes of many buff/debuffs we have are *potentially* 100%, the reason these are only *potentially* 100% is due to how mongoose windows work. In a static boss fight(think patchwerk) where you have full uptime on the boss and can just perform your rotation without interruption, you will still not have 100% uptime across all effects and perform optimal dps. The design of the spec actually works against your buff/debuff uptimes.
    Mongoose Fury lasts 14secs, cannot be refreshed.
    Outside of these 14secs you have a brief window to reapply as many secondary affects as possible before you need to re-enter your next Mongoose Fury window. With the 4pc tier19, correct haste/mastery levels and appropriate use of Flanking Strike you have almost no downtime in mongoose generation. However you need to find windows where you can reapply WotM, Lacerate, SS, StlTrap/Caltrops/ExplTrap, Crows and so on.

    Example: Fight starts, you have already pre-placed traps for the pull so you start with Lacerate, then you build up your WotM(+SS for free) stacks to 3. Now comes the Mongoose window, you begin your spam to 3 and pop Snake Hunter, spam another 2 before you need to refresh WotM(+SS for free) then go back to Mongoose spam with Aspect up. Your starting to hit like a truck here, you've 6 mongoose stacks and Aspect up with charges coming in fast but lacerate has now fallen off and Mongoose fury is about to end. You can't waste a global to refresh lacerate, you need every global possible for 6 stack mongoose spams. You also need to finish your fury window with 4secs of Fury of the Eagle. As the fight goes on, the 24cd on expltrap, 48sec on stltrap, 12sec lacerates, 10sec WotM catch up to you and their refresh periods start appearing at the worst times, until eventually you end up abandoning everything for Mongoose multiple times throughout the fight. This feels bad and plays terribly.
    Result: Rework Mongoose Fury to have a much lower base duration, but extend its duration by 3 secs per mongoose strike. This allows you to extend the window for long periods when you have alot of generation, but each mongoose gives you ~2gcds(3secs) of freedom to reapply buffs/debuffs without the feeling of being punished for wasting globals during a time limited window you can't control the duration of.
    This change would warrant adjustments to both the generation and damage of Mongoose Strikes, but thats fine. This gives you actual free gcds to use on reapplying secondary affects without punishment, gives you control over the flow of your spec and creates a sense of pacing to the playstyle that is missing right now. This is elegant design.


    I'd post this in US forums if I could, although our feedback seems to fall on deaf ears anyway. So maybe the Survival players can read this and understand how simple changes can make the spec so much more satisfying to play without breaking anything.
    Last edited by Khrux; 2017-04-25 at 10:41 AM.

  16. #56
    @krux You may be right about the masochim behavior, tho I like to overcome things that are hard. I would simply clarify that I don't like rotations, having a clearly and fixed cycle where you know everything 20s in advance or even more isn't something I like.

    Talking about your point on the rotation. My point is that we don't need to use EVERYTHING in our kit. Having high priorities and just a few globals to use the best suited spell for that global is something I like. You get heavly punished if you fail your WoMN just before the eyes on Gul'dan because you messed up the mongoose bite window and didn't reach 4p right before the eyes are popping. Having such a great disparity between the power of MB ST wise and other ability cleave/AoE wise is something I like. Every GCD can be different depending on a lot of variables, the mastery procs, the encounter in general. You have a great toolbox with a lot of things that can be better than another in several cases where YOU have to decide when it will be good.

    Speaking of which, I don't mind having a better toolbox too. I only find that our toolbox now is something challenging. To illustrate my point, the two bonus tier set for ToS should have been backed into the spec from the beginning. We need to have abilities that interact with each other. ET beeing more powerful when launched into a existing Tar trap. The ToS tier.

    Now that I have explained a bit (it's dinner time). I would finish on things I don't like. The mastery is a cool concept but needs to be adjusted for low level gear aswell for high end MM gear. When you invest 3k stat into mast, let's say from 4k to 7k, you come from almost starving to overdrowning into MB stacks. If we think about the next tiers that are coming, they will need to adjust how mastery grow because we could simply end into a nn stop MB flow and only push one ability, I don't want SV to end like a morron spec.

    I don't really like the way you want to reword MB window but I feel like I could with this.

  17. #57
    Stood in the Fire BadguyNotBadGuy's Avatar
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    Heyo folks,

    Im currently a frost DK looking at an alt that i would actually enjoy playing (looking at you 5 other level 100s), and survival seems rather interesting to me.
    It looks like it somewhat resembles the current BoS Frost, where every set amount of time, you blow your load of high damage, and then when its over, you go back to a standard rotation waiting for the right criteria to be met (for frost its BoS off CD and HRW when possible, for SV its enough stacks of MB to get the chain started, and Snake Hunter when possible).

    As such i was having a look at a potential spec, and came up with 1/3/2/3/3/3/1. Would this be a decent choice?

    Whats the sort of overall DPS for a prolonged boss fight (to make it easy, lets say Krosus) that a decent SV hunter could pull, without legendaries? and what about with legendaries?


    also tyvm for posting that sweet ass google doc with the awesome info

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Trapstarz View Post
    @krux The mastery is a cool concept but needs to be adjusted for low level gear aswell for high end MM gear. When you invest 3k stat into mast, let's say from 4k to 7k, you come from almost starving to overdrowning into MB stacks. If we think about the next tiers that are coming, they will need to adjust how mastery grow because we could simply end into a nn stop MB flow and only push one ability, I don't want SV to end like a morron spec.
    This concerns me also, coming from a BM main spec I found that I had far too much mastery(expected) and was actually over the mastery cap required for guaranteed mongoose charges from flanking strike(+2pc tier) so I had to drop alot of it. Even now with a haste focus and decent values of crit/vers/mast equally, I still find Flanking is almost a guaranteed mongoose strike and with 5 ranks in "Fluffy, go" I'm just drowning in mongoose charges.

    This is maybe the main cause for my problems with Survival, I just have too much mongoose to spend and not enough time to spend them while also casting secondary skills. Or I feel punished for trying to juggle everything we have instead of spamming mongoose endlessly like some 1 button moron spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mofn View Post
    also tyvm for posting that sweet ass google doc with the awesome info
    You're welcome.

    In regards to your questions;
    - Survival is basically identical in terms of dps on Krosus mythic compared to Frost DK.
    - Survival is one of the least legendary dependant specs in the game, none of our legendarys are very good(except bracers) and we benefit from almost every stat equally(to a point) that many "shit" legendarys for hunters like Pyrdaz/Sephuz/Helm/Legs are actually quite strong because of triple stats.
    - Survival has similarities to Frost when playing BoS spec, but there is far more going on in Survivals spec and you have much more rotational skills and active keybinds required. If you like simplicity with a focus on resource management(like Frost DK) then Survival is quite different.
    - The spec you listed is the easier version of the spec, basically Animal instincts instead of Mok'Nathal. Those talents are mostly interchangeable especially with 4pc tier19 but WotM definitely has higher dps potential and scales well with the new Survival trait "Echoes of O'nhara". It is more difficult to use in raid conditions and requires careful management of gcds and your focus pool.
    - The easiest survival spec is 1/2/2/2/2/3/X where X can be 2/3 as both are passive. This is whats commonly referred to as the passive build and requires alot less management than other builds but will not compete with top parses. Its fine for world content, dungeons or just heroic raids etc. and if this is just an alt it won't matter much I guess.

  19. #59
    Stood in the Fire BadguyNotBadGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khrux View Post
    The easiest survival spec is 1/2/2/2/2/3/X where X can be 2/3 as both are passive. This is whats commonly referred to as the passive build and requires alot less management than other builds but will not compete with top parses. Its fine for world content, dungeons or just heroic raids etc. and if this is just an alt it won't matter much I guess.
    Im not really bothered will complexity or being top of the top, however if i start playing something i wanna play it decently with a reasonable amount of time put into "mastering" the spec. So i dont mind needing to learn more buttons and figuring out the rotation, cos at the end of the day, learning is what makes things fun for me.

  20. #60
    @Mofn sure u can run with 1/3/2/3/3/3/1 i do so and iam doing fine even without the bracers the only situation where Mok´nathal is rly superior to AI is burst aoe everywhere else ist actually even, and 1/2/2/2/2/3/X maybe the most passiv talent choice but also by far the worst.

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