Western values, do they exist ?

[Deleted]

I always read about how the west is the best thing ever because it has "better values" "better traditions" etc

It usually comes from a very specific type of poster but that's not really relevant

First of all, all western countries are far from having the same laws regarding personal liberties and democracy :

- Portugal decriminalized all drugs, Netherlands tolerates pot, USA and France criminalize every single one.

- Abortion in the west is viewed as a fundamental right for some and as murder for others.

- Germany and France has harsh penalties for anyone contesting the holocaust or dressing as a nazi, US view it an extension of free speech.

I could go on forever with that list, and there is more in "the west" than just Europe and US

The point is, I don't think there are such things as western values because such broad concepts as democracy have very different interpretations depending of who you ask. There even are a few monarchies left in Europe, and they arguably are more democratic than some republics.

What some people call western values are, to me, the consequences of a warless, stable and thriving environment : people just naturally chose to be nicer to each other when they are not operating under stressful constraints like economical pressure.

[Deleted]

Portugal legalized all drugs

Portugal decriminalized drugs. Big difference. Drugs are still considered bad, but it's pointless to fill the jails with sick junkies, now they are treated instead.

[Deleted]

Like anything, it's subject to interpretation. Western Values has to me always meant democracy and the ideals behind the enlightenment. A focus and acknowledgement of individuality. America was the bastion of this as it was founded on those ideals, free from monarchies or forms of government that require 'noble' blood in order to be a member. As Europe embraces hate speech codes and works to hide "truth" from the masses, they move further away from those concepts of free speech and discussion.

But the point is wether or not they embrace it, they are not the result of them being "the west" but the people liberating themselves from oppression.

My concern here is claiming that we the west somehow invented democracy and liberal ideas and need to export them, "show the light" to other nations because they supposedly can't achieve it on their own.
I'm more inclined to think that any people, regardless of their ethnicity and localization, will naturally drift toward increased social cohesion and democratic institutions if left alone in a non threatening environment

[sheggaro]

Democracy, freedom of speech, free elections, equal appliance of the law just to name a few.

[Deleted]

Portugal decriminalized drugs. Big difference. Drugs are still considered bad, but it's pointless to fill the jails with sick junkies, now they are treated instead.

It still shows that they perceive junkies as sick people and not criminals. That simple acknowledgement is very meaningful.

[zenkai]

Portugal decriminalized drugs. Big difference. Drugs are still considered bad, but it's pointless to fill the jails with sick junkies, now they are treated instead.

Most people are not thrown in jail over simple drug use, there are other things tied to it. If it is just drug use they are usually offered rehab for a deterrence sentence.

[Deleted]

Its all subjective and very selective.

But mostly its fake. People talk about those values only when it fits their agenda, ignoring those values when it doesn't. Against child labor? Sure, unless that means closing cloth factories, which would result in price of t-shirt becoming 5$ more expensive or if it means price of latest iPhone going up. Free speech, expression and thought? Sure, unless what you are saying doesn't match bullshit media has been peddling for years or doesn't fit political agenda.

[Wyrt]

Democracy, freedom of speech, free elections, equal appliance of the law just to name a few.

lol US "democracy."

[Azadina]

Most people are not thrown in jail over simple drug use, there are other things tied to it. If it is just drug use they are usually offered rehab for a deterrence sentence.

Such as? Whether the local private prison has empty spots for more profit or not?

[Deleted]

People repeatedly point to Portugal as an example of positivity with its drug laws, but in what metrics are Portuguese a leader in? If the only metric you account for is arrest/incarceration with no assessment of impact on GDP, productivity, etc., I don't know if that's a good example.

The reduction of overdose deaths, HIV positive diagnoses and decreased drug users and drug-related crimes.

But I agree with your post, it doesn't affect the macroeconomics, but a society isn't just about the macroeconomics.

Most people are not thrown in jail over simple drug use, there are other things tied to it. If it is just drug use they are usually offered rehab for a deterrence sentence.

There are no sentence related to drug use. That was one of the problems.

It still shows that they perceive junkies as sick people and not criminals. That simple acknowledgement is very meaningful.

True, it's very different from calling it "legal" and "decriminalized". Drug selling is still a crime.

[artemishunter1]

I always read about how the west is the best thing ever because it has "better values" "better traditions" etc

It usually comes from a very specific type of poster but that's not really relevant

First of all, all western countries are far from having the same laws regarding personal liberties and democracy :

- Portugal legalized all drugs, Netherlands tolerates pot, USA and France criminalize every single one.

- Abortion in the west is viewed as a fundamental right for some and as murder for others.

- Germany and France has harsh penalties for anyone contesting the holocaust or dressing as a nazi, US view it an extension of free speech.

I could go on forever with that list, and there is more in "the west" than just Europe and US

The point is, I don't think there are such things as western values because such broad concepts as democracy have very different interpretations depending of who you ask. There even are a few monarchies left in Europe, and they arguably are more democratic than some republics.

What some people call western values are, to me, the consequences of a warless, stable and thriving environment : people just naturally chose to be nicer to each other when they are not operating under stressful constraints like economical pressure.

Western Values are PRINCIPLES, not SPECIFIC laws. We have laws that counter to our principles, such as Patriot Act. Does not mean Patriot Act is our value and culture. Another SIGNIFICANT part of western values in the belief that ALL people are equal, Focus on Human Rights, Individualism, Rooting for the Underdog, belief that leadership should serve the people and will of the people, not themselves. Offcourse, at various times in our history we have failed to uphold those values, but that is a DIFFERENT discussion. The reason that YOU can't differentiate between western values and eastern values because you are living in the west and have only cursory notion of eastern values. And now adays east is copying western values such as Japan, and India etc.
One example, All people are equal. That is a genuine AFFRONT to me and my culture. You mean to say a trash from very bottom of society is equal to GREAT ME and My line of family that stretches back far beyond Mugul Invasion of India? Yet, West genuinely believes my life is equal to life of a trash from Ghetto. This is UNIQUE to West. Nothing like this EVER appeared in East or Africa or Australia. Do you know why Saudis can abuse their servants like that and not get punished? Because East is not DELUSIONAL. We admit PEOPLE are not EQUAL. A trash getting killed by RICH person is UNWORTHY of concern for a State.

[Tijuana]

Such as? Whether the local private prison has empty spots for more profit or not?

That's not an actual thing. Just sayin...

[artemishunter1]

Such as? Whether the local private prison has empty spots for more profit or not?

That is LIBERAL propaganda, therefore lies. Private prisons are not widespread, and only in certain states. Also, STATE PRISONS are MENTAL HEALTH facility. Due to ACLU and OTHER liberal organization making it that forcing mentally ill patents and drug abusers to get treatment illigal, we have to wait until they do other crimes to force them into prisons, where they can get treatment. YOU liberals want it both ways. You want drug abusers and mentally ill people to stay out of treatment facilities and you want them to get treatment instead of getting in prison when they commit crime due to their mental disease and drug abuse.

[Revi]

If you need hundreds of million of people to agree on everything to accept that there's some common values, you won't find that anywhere. That's not required though.

If I say western values, you'd understand that I meant things like democracy, equality in law and human rights.

They're just general values. Doesn't mean they're always perfectly translated to policy or that everyone agrees on all of them.

[PC2]

What some people call western values are, to me, the consequences of a warless, stable and thriving environment

That too was a consequence of an earlier feature which only the West adopted. Institutionalized self-criticism. Every other civilization had much slower or static values.

But even a healthy stabilizing idea can be twisted towards masochism, such as welcoming many millions of border crossers who never went through the legal process.

[Dezerte]

As a gross generalization of beliefs and values, I suppose.

[Revi]

That is LIBERAL propaganda, therefore lies. Private prisons are not widespread, and only in certain states. Also, STATE PRISONS are MENTAL HEALTH facility. Due to ACLU and OTHER liberal organization making it that forcing mentally ill patents and drug abusers to get treatment illigal, we have to wait until they do other crimes to force them into prisons, where they can get treatment. YOU liberals want it both ways. You want drug abusers and mentally ill people to stay out of treatment facilities and you want them to get treatment instead of getting in prison when they commit crime due to their mental disease and drug abuse.

"According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, for-profit companies were responsible for approximately 7 percent of state prisoners and 18 percent of federal prisoners in 2015 (the most recent numbers currently available). U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement reported that in 2016, private prisons held nearly three-quarters of federal immigration detainees"

With the largest prison population in the world, and the highest per-capita imprisonment rate, those numbers are very high.

[CMartel]

Western values are better understood as the values from within the Hajnal line, Portugal is outside it. People want the benefits created by a majority that has these values but don't understand the values create the West's golden eggs. What separates the West from almost all other cultures is its rejection of corruption, most cultures in the world not only embrace corruption but celebrate it. In fact if you look at this article from ISRAEL you will see that the attributes of the US founding fathers, Abe Lincoln & the boy scouts are what is considered to be the worst insult in jewish culture.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ar...cle.aspx/11424

and http://articles.latimes.com/1997/jul/25/news/mn-16208

"JERUSALEM — Why does an Israeli driver speed up when another car signals its intent to enter his traffic lane? Because he doesn't want to be a freier--a sucker.

What do Israelis say when dodging military reserve duty? "What do I look like, a freier?"

And how does the Club Riviera advertise its five-star apartments? "Only Freiers Pay More!"

If Israelis could agree on anything--a highly unlikely prospect, but if they could--it just might be that the cardinal sin is to be a freier.

"It's a national characteristic," said author Zeev Chafets, who included a chapter on the subject in his book about Israelis, "Heroes and Hustlers, Hard Hats and Holy Men." The topic "is something we talk about all the time."

A freier, in Israeli eyes, is a shopper who waits in line to pay retail. It is a driver who searches for legal parking rather than pulling onto the sidewalk with the other cars. And if he does this in a rush to file a tax return, he is the consummate freier.

In short, a freier is anyone who cedes ground, plays completely by the rules or allows someone to get the better of him. The ideal Israeli is clever and tough, and a freier is the opposite. A pushover--in the way that Israelis often perceive Americans to be."


People are unused to truth.
People follow consistent truth.
Respect the power and impact of truth.
Men who speak truth drive value.

[Deleted]

Another SIGNIFICANT part of western values in the belief that ALL people are equal, Focus on Human Rights, Individualism, Rooting for the Underdog, belief that leadership should serve the people and will of the people, not themselves. Offcourse, at various times in our history we have failed to uphold those values, but that is a DIFFERENT discussion. The reason that YOU can't differentiate between western values and eastern values because you are living in the west and have only cursory notion of eastern values.

Ever heard of Ubuntu ? What you describe still isn't a trait that is inherent to western societies (which used to be very violent).

Also please don't make assumptions as to where i live/lived and what i am able to differenciate.

[Manabomb]

Like anything, it's subject to interpretation. Western Values has to me always meant democracy and the ideals behind the enlightenment. A focus and acknowledgement of individuality. America was the bastion of this as it was founded on those ideals, free from monarchies or forms of government that require 'noble' blood in order to be a member. As Europe embraces hate speech codes and works to hide "truth" from the masses, they move further away from those concepts of free speech and discussion.

Hiding "truth" is not the same thing as invalidating incorrect assumptions.