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  1. #21
    FOR SINGLE TARGET ONLY:

    Can't check right now but I am fairly confident that, during meta only chaos strike (annihilation) is more damage per execution than throw glaives, even with bloodlet.

    Because of this, during Chaos Blades, I would imagine that you wouldn't want to throw glaive at all (unless you run out of fury) if you can chaos strike instead?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gylen View Post
    Because of this, during Chaos Blades, I would imagine that you wouldn't want to throw glaive at all (unless you run out of fury) if you can chaos strike instead?
    Annihilate is more damage per execute time than Throw Glaive. For me, the difference is 1.5M vs 0.9M. You should always use Annihilate over Throw Glaive if you have the fury for it, Throw Glaive is not charge capped, and you are fighting only one target.

    Technically, capping Throw Glaive for a second or two might be a minimal damage increase but that is overthinking it I guess.

    For the start of the fight, casting double Throw Glaive into Annihilate spam and casting throw glaive/Annihilate Spam/throw glaive when capping (~7 seconds) should be identical.

  3. #23
    Blademaster Dareous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    It is DoT snapshotting... you just can't prolong the duration.

    Bloodlet should be regulated based on buffs/crits throughout the fight...Don't just burn your TG charges off CD as often you will be replacing a DoT that is dealing more damage. Obviously you want to keep bloodlet running at all times but as I said the damage of TG is snapshotted.
    Bloodlet is an ignite style mechanic so you do not replace a high dmg dot with a weaker one it just gets added to the pool and drops off when each hidden individual bloodlet timer runs out.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepwny View Post
    Annihilate is more damage per execute time than Throw Glaive. For me, the difference is 1.5M vs 0.9M. You should always use Annihilate over Throw Glaive if you have the fury for it, Throw Glaive is not charge capped, and you are fighting only one target.
    This is the answer right here, and honestly it surprises me. I've been doing it wrong. I'd just assumed that a moarg's buffed TG+bloodlet would do more dmg than would annihilate, but that is not the case. SimC backs this up as do my logs. Annihilate still does more DPET than TG+bloodlet, even buffed by moarg's.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ufta View Post
    This is the answer right here, and honestly it surprises me. I've been doing it wrong. I'd just assumed that a moarg's buffed TG+bloodlet would do more dmg than would annihilate, but that is not the case. SimC backs this up as do my logs. Annihilate still does more DPET than TG+bloodlet, even buffed by moarg's.
    Not true if you're running bloodlet. Anni does about twice the damage of a throw glaive, if you factor in the 150% DoT you gain through bloodlet it's not even close. If you're running moarg+bloodlet you will want to get AS MANY TGs in during CB.
    Had a look at a few of my logs to back it up.
    CB+Anni did on average 1.5m-1.6m
    CB+TG did on average 800k which results in a 1.2m dot so 2m in total.

    On topic I usually do: 1sek before pull Pot+Meta leap on the boss, FB, CB+Nem, TG, FotI, TG, Anni as much as possible, FB if needed and usually one more TG before CB ends.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by liangdar View Post
    Not true if you're running bloodlet. Anni does about twice the damage of a throw glaive, if you factor in the 150% DoT you gain through bloodlet it's not even close. If you're running moarg+bloodlet you will want to get AS MANY TGs in during CB.
    Had a look at a few of my logs to back it up.
    CB+Anni did on average 1.5m-1.6m
    CB+TG did on average 800k which results in a 1.2m dot so 2m in total.
    Yes, true if you're running bloodlet.
    What are the crit rates of TG and Annihilate in your logs that you looked at? I'm willing to bet that either TG was abnormally high, or Annihilate was abnormally low, or both.
    If both abilities crit at a rate close to your stat sheet, Annihilate is higher DPET than TG+bloodlet+moarg's. That's not opinion, that's fact. Sim yourself and see.

    In fact, since you have your armory in your signature, I took the liberty of simming you myself:

    Annihilation DPET: 1,641,468
    TG+Bloodlet DPET: 979,409


  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ufta View Post
    Yes, true if you're running bloodlet.
    What are the crit rates of TG and Annihilate in your logs that you looked at? I'm willing to bet that either TG was abnormally high, or Annihilate was abnormally low, or both.
    If both abilities crit at a rate close to your stat sheet, Annihilate is higher DPET than TG+bloodlet+moarg's. That's not opinion, that's fact. Sim yourself and see.

    In fact, since you have your armory in your signature, I took the liberty of simming you myself:

    Annihilation DPET: 1,641,468
    TG+Bloodlet DPET: 979,409

    /snip
    Is the most current version of simcraft factoring in the change to Mo'Args? Those results seem a bit low. On casual tests on a training dummy I was getting ~1.9M for Annihilation and ~1.5M for TG+Bloodlet during CB burst opener. (904 ilvl - 44 traits)

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepwny View Post
    Not only that.

    Using Meta before Nemesis/CB ensures that you use the 25% haste for the extra CB procs and, if you use Meta during CB, you will lose a few hits/casts during the jump animations.

    I'm pretty sure using Metamorphosis right before CB is pretty much always strictly better.
    Now that we have the macro conditions to automatically cast abilities with a target reticule directly at your mouse's current location (without needing another click, right on ability use) or immediately where your character is standing, does casting Meta automatically and directly at your current location still result in there being travel time? Basically, does the "leap" portion of using Meta always last the same amount of time or is it relative to distance traveled? If I use Meta at max range will I be in transit longer than if I use it right at my feet, or does the travel time speed up/slow down based on distance in order to always have a 1 second (for sake of example) travel time no matter what? If it lasts longer based on how far you travel, I wonder if doing an [@player] to automatically cast it at your feet would allow it to be quick enough to help negate a bit of that downtime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gylen View Post
    FOR SINGLE TARGET ONLY:

    Can't check right now but I am fairly confident that, during meta only chaos strike (annihilation) is more damage per execution than throw glaives, even with bloodlet.

    Because of this, during Chaos Blades, I would imagine that you wouldn't want to throw glaive at all (unless you run out of fury) if you can chaos strike instead?
    This depends on a few factors. In pure ST with no bracers, this could be the case. If you have bracers, bloodlet, and a (reliable) set of three targets this may not be true, even moreso if you can target in a way that your priority DPS target is always the second bounce (again, with bracers).

    In that scenario, without doing the math I can pretty much assume that a 3-target Bloodlet w/ bracers would almost definitely be more beneficial than a Annihilation when looked at as damage per global.

    Quote Originally Posted by ufta View Post
    This is the answer right here, and honestly it surprises me. I've been doing it wrong. I'd just assumed that a moarg's buffed TG+bloodlet would do more dmg than would annihilate, but that is not the case. SimC backs this up as do my logs. Annihilate still does more DPET than TG+bloodlet, even buffed by moarg's.
    I have a hard time believing this is true 100% of the time after the change to the bracers. Before the change when they only increased damage starting with the second target hit, maybe. Now that they increase bloodlet damage on ALL targets, including the initial hit, I think there are going to be more scenarios where this isn't the case. Regardless, this only applies to pure, consistent single target; if you can reliably hit three targets while running bloodlet/bracers, it's pretty much guaranteed to be more beneficial to do so over an Ann when looking at it from a "damage per GCD" perspective. This may still even be the case at two targets; I'm not 100% sure and am just theorizing, though.

    I think the main consideration when deciding your Meta ability priority on a fight where you're running bloodlet is simply determining if you can hit more than one target, and if those additional targets will remain alive for the full duration of the debuff. If you do have two extra targets but they're going to be bursted down and die 4 seconds after Bloodlet is applied, you'll have to then take that into consideration as well.

    Edit:
    Another thing, can you Throw Glaive mid-leap when you Meta? I know you can Throw Glaive during a Vengeful Retreat, as it only puts itself and Fel Rush on it's (quick) GCD, and doing so is a nice way to weave in a little extra DPS since you're not likely to be doing anything else mid-leap when you VR; I'm assuming this wouldn't work and that popping Meta just triggers a standard GCD for all abilities, but I guess if (relative to my prior question in response to the first quote in this reply) Meta's leap duration is dynamic, and I'm not sure that it is, if you go max range and it lasts longer than your GCD it's probably worthwhile to use Meta before you land.

    This is totally hypothetical and I'll check it out later, but while it'd be nice I doubt it would work in practice. Still, totally off topic, if you didn't know about the VR GCD thing you should definitely take advantage and use that travel time to add in an extra Throw Glaive without spending an actual in-combat/melee GCD on it.
    Last edited by Extremity; 2017-04-19 at 04:49 AM.


  9. #29
    A lot of stuff on this thread.

    For me the main story is during meta, i believe Annihilation spam is all you want to do. Unless, you have 2 or more targets.

    If its just straight up single target, during meta, just keep doing annihilation, when your fury starved, then throw glaive.
    However, if you have 2 or more targets, then use a mouse over macro to glaive off second target, so your primary target with nemesis debuff gets the second hit (or third if you have three targets, but thats rng)

    Best thing is to just to a target dummy, do a throw glaive, addup bloodlet/throw glaive, do a chaos strike, and do the math.

    Don't get too attached to this build, i believe our next tier will put First Blood as a mandatory.

  10. #30
    Moderator xtramuscle's Avatar
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    With nem having a one min duration why would you only pop it with cb, and not pre pot, tg, nem, fb, meta, cb, then annihilation spam or tg/fb if low fury? I don't like to pre meta to avoid fury starvation on pull, but is it a bigger dose loss to have meta travel time during the fight, than it is a gain from the times I have fury to spare that I wouldn't have starved etc?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    With nem having a one min duration why would you only pop it with cb, and not pre pot, tg, nem, fb, meta, cb, then annihilation spam or tg/fb if low fury? I don't like to pre meta to avoid fury starvation on pull, but is it a bigger dose loss to have meta travel time during the fight, than it is a gain from the times I have fury to spare that I wouldn't have starved etc?
    Yeah, this was a question pretty early on in the expansion and for a while after, and it's been shown that it's still a DPS increase to open with Meta than to wait and pop it. I tested waiting on Meta for a while myself, dropping FoTI without it and getting Fury to at *least* half, both when we ran Momentum and then First Blood, and in general leaping in with Meta on the pull was always best. With the haste buff and especially now that we run with Felblade, while you can get unlucky Fury is not really a huge issue overall.

    I think the use of an Old War also contributed to this as you wanted as much time as possible in Meta with Old War active, or something.


  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    Edit:
    Another thing, can you Throw Glaive mid-leap when you Meta? I know you can Throw Glaive during a Vengeful Retreat, as it only puts itself and Fel Rush on it's (quick) GCD, and doing so is a nice way to weave in a little extra DPS since you're not likely to be doing anything else mid-leap when you VR; I'm assuming this wouldn't work and that popping Meta just triggers a standard GCD for all abilities, but I guess if (relative to my prior question in response to the first quote in this reply) Meta's leap duration is dynamic, and I'm not sure that it is, if you go max range and it lasts longer than your GCD it's probably worthwhile to use Meta before you land.

    This is totally hypothetical and I'll check it out later, but while it'd be nice I doubt it would work in practice. Still, totally off topic, if you didn't know about the VR GCD thing you should definitely take advantage and use that travel time to add in an extra Throw Glaive without spending an actual in-combat/melee GCD on it.
    You can't cast anything mid-Meta leap, since it disables any input between the cast and landing.

    Based on napkin math, Bloodlet TG with bracers against a single target is barely stronger than Annihilation assuming 0 Inner Demons and Chaotic Onslaught procs. So most definitely annihilation > TG against a single target. You'll probably run out of fury during CB so popping TG charges at that point is only beneficial anyways.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Sendula View Post
    You can't cast anything mid-Meta leap, since it disables any input between the cast and landing.

    Based on napkin math, Bloodlet TG with bracers against a single target is barely stronger than Annihilation assuming 0 Inner Demons and Chaotic Onslaught procs. So most definitely annihilation > TG against a single target. You'll probably run out of fury during CB so popping TG charges at that point is only beneficial anyways.
    So for pure ST it looks like standard rotation, prioritizing TG as filler, but preferably preventing a 2-charge cap and getting in two during Chaos Blades if possible. For more than one target, prioritize TG over Ann, at the very least to the extent that it's never capping. I'd probably quickly dump two to get a high one rolling, and then prevent double stacked charges, getting one last one in before Chaos Blades expired regardless of whether it's close to charge-capping or not.


  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by PowerGamez View Post
    Is the most current version of simcraft factoring in the change to Mo'Args? Those results seem a bit low. On casual tests on a training dummy I was getting ~1.9M for Annihilation and ~1.5M for TG+Bloodlet during CB burst opener. (904 ilvl - 44 traits)
    That was using the latest nightly release.
    Edit: and also that's over a 5 minute sim, not just during chaos blades. It's not necessary to only look at CB-buffed numbers, however, because everything we're discussing here is affected the same way by opener buffs. ie Annihilation is always higher DPET than TG+bloodlet, no matter whether inside or outside of CB/nemesis/whatever. Obviously the absolute values of both will be bigger inside of CB than outside.
    Last edited by ufta; 2017-04-19 at 12:49 PM.

  15. #35
    Moderator xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    Yeah, this was a question pretty early on in the expansion and for a while after, and it's been shown that it's still a DPS increase to open with Meta than to wait and pop it. I tested waiting on Meta for a while myself, dropping FoTI without it and getting Fury to at *least* half, both when we ran Momentum and then First Blood, and in general leaping in with Meta on the pull was always best. With the haste buff and especially now that we run with Felblade, while you can get unlucky Fury is not really a huge issue overall.

    I think the use of an Old War also contributed to this as you wanted as much time as possible in Meta with Old War active, or something.
    So pre old war, meta, fb, then nem/cb foti tg x2, fb, then spam annihilation. Or would you delay nem/cb to gen more fury? It loses maybe a second or two of old war, but will still have full use of meta, lustre etc and reduces risk of starvation.

  16. #36
    Just use both charges instantly during CB as long as you don't overcap on fury during that small window. You don't lose much as you don't lose any fury while using TG. Basically, you should be able to fit in 3 TG during CB window and i believe this is the way to get max dps out of this build.

    For people talking about snapshotting, each dot applied is individual but added to a pool of damage. The CB buffed TG dot will run out in 10 seconds regardless of how much you try to stagger it. High uptime is pointless with Bloodlet, you just want to avoid capping TG charges (don't sit at 2 charges). If you do this you still end up with 90% ish uptime, but as i said, pointless metric.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    So pre old war, meta, fb, then nem/cb foti tg x2, fb, then spam annihilation. Or would you delay nem/cb to gen more fury? It loses maybe a second or two of old war, but will still have full use of meta, lustre etc and reduces risk of starvation.
    Macro in Arcane Torrent with Nem/CB macro and use Felblade, if you're still starving then you're just fucked. There's no waiting in the world that will make up for the DPS loss. The current Dblades is so random that you're basically never going to sit and wait for fury cus it can cap you from 50-130 if you get procd. Dblades on 7.2.5 PTR will probably mean we will pool fury once again, as it's linear fury gains.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    So pre old war, meta, fb, then nem/cb foti tg x2, fb, then spam annihilation. Or would you delay nem/cb to gen more fury? It loses maybe a second or two of old war, but will still have full use of meta, lustre etc and reduces risk of starvation.
    If you're horde, just using your racial should give you enough Fury to at least open with a Death Sweep and get things rolling, so I wouldn't think you'd need to delay. I don't think I'd ever delay CB/Nemesis, the only thing I'd consider delaying is what you're going to activate first DURING that initial Nemesis/CB.


  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    If you're horde, just using your racial should give you enough Fury to at least open with a Death Sweep and get things rolling, so I wouldn't think you'd need to delay. I don't think I'd ever delay CB/Nemesis, the only thing I'd consider delaying is what you're going to activate first DURING that initial Nemesis/CB.
    I think you might be forgetting, we're talking about BLOODLET. Which replaces FIRST BLOOD. You don't use Blade Dance on ST without First Blood.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Addyizor View Post
    I think you might be forgetting, we're talking about BLOODLET. Which replaces FIRST BLOOD. You don't use Blade Dance on ST without First Blood.
    Oh, right, sorry. I haven't slept in a while. Either way, I still would not delay anything. You want to get those cooldowns ticking.

    The only time this might change is when you get the fourth point into the "Meta CD reduction" trait, meaning you can delay meta by a tiny bit without worrying about your CDs not lining up for the rest of the fight. This might make it more opportune to delay meta on some occasions (like doing a TG or whatever else during Nem+CB but before you Meta) but outside of a situation like that, with that 4/4 trait, I wouldn't ever push it back.


  20. #40
    Moderator xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Is it true that death sweep goes from being a dps increase at 5+ to 3+ during meta? Also when is eye beam actually worth using? What are the break points to put it into the rotation etc
    Last edited by xtramuscle; 2017-04-22 at 07:22 AM.

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