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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    Is it true that death sweep goes from being a dps increase at 5+ to 3+ during meta? Also when is eye beam actually worth using? What are the break points to put it into the rotation etc
    With First Blood, Death Sweep is always your #1 priority no matter what. Without First Blood, I'm not sure. +3 seems reasonable. First Blood is a bit more than triple the damage to the primary target, so I'd assume that when you have 3-4 targets it's the same as hitting 1 with First Blood active, and since with First Blood it's always your top priority then I guess it would make sense that you'd want to use it that point without FB.


  2. #42
    Moderator xtramuscle's Avatar
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    I've got bracers, so pretty much always running bloodlet instead. until T20 atleast. What about eye beam, how many targets is needed to make that worth using?
    Véx

    Streaming WOD & Beta@ http://www.twitch.tv/vexxee

  3. #43
    Is it true we should be running bloodlet build for higher m+? Because I know the runs with DoG at this point pretty well and when it's an AoE dominant dungeon my demonic gear is at 60% mastery needless to say i roll.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    I've got bracers, so pretty much always running bloodlet instead. until T20 atleast. What about eye beam, how many targets is needed to make that worth using?
    One.

    Sincerely Yours.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by ehxy View Post
    Is it true we should be running bloodlet build for higher m+? Because I know the runs with DoG at this point pretty well and when it's an AoE dominant dungeon my demonic gear is at 60% mastery needless to say i roll.
    The two minute meta build is pretty "meh" in five mans because fights generally don't last long enough for you to get two full duration metas. If you're doing a high enough keystone that a boss fight will last at least 2.5 minutes, then go for it.

    I generally swap to other legendaries and change my CoF to something else on bosses, and then swap back to DoG/CoF after the boss to make sure meta is up for the next fight. This way I have meta, CB, and Nemesis for EVERY single boss instead of on every single other boss when doing a quick dungeon.


  6. #46
    Moderator xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ysho View Post
    One.

    Sincerely Yours.
    Honestly I should be using eye beam on single target with out demonic build?
    Véx

    Streaming WOD & Beta@ http://www.twitch.tv/vexxee

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    The two minute meta build is pretty "meh" in five mans because fights generally don't last long enough for you to get two full duration metas. If you're doing a high enough keystone that a boss fight will last at least 2.5 minutes, then go for it.

    I generally swap to other legendaries and change my CoF to something else on bosses, and then swap back to DoG/CoF after the boss to make sure meta is up for the next fight. This way I have meta, CB, and Nemesis for EVERY single boss instead of on every single other boss when doing a quick dungeon.
    I don't run CoF, I got 2 meta relics on top of the new trait with DoG is plenty and besides if if it really matters I hold off for gnawed thumb ring and if you want to go true meta you're waiting for a jacyn proc too unless it's an opener on a boss I believe is the proper thing to do?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    Honestly I should be using eye beam on single target with out demonic build?
    Only if you're below 42nd point in new gold trait.

  8. #48
    Eye Beam on ST with new traits is about the same as without. It's not a loss because of the reduced cost and it's not a gain. You might give or take 1% or so, but it's not worth using simply because it's pretty much the same either way - use it or not, neither way is "wrong" anymore outside of one kind of being just a waste of time.

    It might be a TINY gain on something like Krosus, if you can Eye Beam after a bridge collapse where the beam would hit him before he's in range of a Chaos Strike, but even that is like min/maxing to the absolute extreme.


  9. #49
    Hate to bring up this old thread, Extremity. Just logged In for the first time In week. I see further up, you're suggesting using CB before meta?

    Do you realize how much more valuable chaos blades is than meta in terms of uptime? I'd rather waste 2 gcds in meta than waste the animation of meta during CB. By that I mean never meta After using CB unless you duck up. Don't plan to do it.

    Sorry if it's typed shit, I'm on my tablet and it's 1am.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Addyizor View Post
    Hate to bring up this old thread, Extremity. Just logged In for the first time In week. I see further up, you're suggesting using CB before meta?

    Do you realize how much more valuable chaos blades is than meta in terms of uptime? I'd rather waste 2 gcds in meta than waste the animation of meta during CB. By that I mean never meta After using CB unless you duck up. Don't plan to do it.

    Sorry if it's typed shit, I'm on my tablet and it's 1am.
    I always use CB after I leap in with Meta; I generally leap in, Nemesis, CB. I haven't scrolled up to read my reply but I think I was just guessing that if your primary concern was maximum Bloodlet damage that you would want to use CB and then your Throw Glaives and then Meta in order to not waste those two globals during Meta and have more time within Meta to use globals on other things. Now that I think about it, though, you're probably right and it would probably end up in more of a damage loss to have 2 seconds less of CB time during Meta, even if you're using those first one or two globals on TG (auto attacks, I guess?)


  11. #51
    It's more the animation time is a complete waste.

  12. #52
    Ok, just got Mo'arg, was very excited until I tested with my configurations. Also made my own analyze over this thread

    1) Pure ST: the combo Anchor + Ring is a bit more DPS. No way that bloodlet (or maybe with the artifact trait and relic ? This is a shame you have to replace. This should work like Diablo runes, or FF Mobius custom skills. Don't have yet but my intuition leads me to the fact you need the trait + a relic to be better).
    I don't get why people claim "Bloodlet is far ahead on ST with Mo'arg". This is not the case / pretty equivalent overall (good job blizz, but T20 will shut the story). The only thing I can see is with more haste / gear, I fall to 8% with Mo'arg settup.

    2) 2 targets + : Mo'arg + Ring is more DPS, no contest.

    3) Anni and even CS are not more effective DPS than Throw Glaive + Mo'arg + Bloodlet BUT the word "effective DPS" is a bullshit in itself. People reason badly over it. If you would have unlimited resources, you wouldn't do your "more effective DPS spells" but the most POTENTIAL out of your tools. And CS/Anni, considering: proc/crit, Inner Demon, Chaotic O. is far more POTENTIAL. There is a reason why you don't do Fel Rush most often even if it's high EDPS.

    4) Raddon's + Ring: Demonic / Chaos Cleave, ST or 2+ targets is always the winner as far as sustained DPS is concerned. However, the burst window with classic Neme+CB build can't be caught up if the fight is that short or there aren't adds to gain advantage over the time.

    5) Gain some abstraction, some of you guys are too much Left brained. See Throw Glaive as a dot and not his damage since the flat %, we don't care.
    => The fact that you have buff, the DoT is empowered is a snapshot. There is no duration implied in the origin of the word. However, the confusion amongst you come from the fact the Throw Glaive snapshot is a transitive pleonasm in the Spell description itself ...
    Last edited by Deix-EU; 2017-04-29 at 01:29 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Deix-EU View Post
    I don't get why people claim "Bloodlet is far ahead on ST with Mo'arg".
    I haven't seen anyone make this claim.
    From my own sims, what I see is bloodlet is BARELY ahead on ST with moarg.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by ufta View Post
    I haven't seen anyone make this claim.
    From my own sims, what I see is bloodlet is BARELY ahead on ST with moarg.
    Yeah OK, can see why with traits and gear but I saw someone say "ahead from far" in another thread.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deix-EU View Post
    3) Anni and even CS are not more effective DPS than Throw Glaive + Mo'arg + Bloodlet BUT the word "effective DPS" is a bullshit in itself. People reason badly over it. If you would have unlimited resources, you wouldn't do your "more effective DPS spells" but the most POTENTIAL out of your tools. And CS/Anni, considering: proc/crit, Inner Demon, Chaotic O. is far more POTENTIAL.
    SimC damage per execute time already includes Inner Demon (PPM based by the way), Chaotic Onslaugh, Crit, and every other parameter that might affect your DPS. Yes, if you could somehow guarantee that every single one of your Chaos Strikes would proc Chaotic Onslaught and Crit, you would be far better off pressing Chaos Strike (let alone Annihilation) over Throw Glaive every single time.

    But that practically never happens.

    What you are doing here is similar to arguing that in the following graph, your DPS is not 877k (the mean) but the theoretical maximum of 1.17M DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deix-EU View Post
    There is a reason why you don't do Fel Rush most often even if it's high EDPS.
    Yes, it is called having a CD. If Fel Rush had infinite charges, you'd bet you ass we would be spamming it all game long over lower DPET abilities.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepwny View Post
    SimC damage per execute time already includes Inner Demon (PPM based by the way), Chaotic Onslaugh, Crit, and every other parameter that might affect your DPS. Yes, if you could somehow guarantee that every single one of your Chaos Strikes would proc Chaotic Onslaught and Crit, you would be far better off pressing Chaos Strike (let alone Annihilation) over Throw Glaive every single time.

    But that practically never happens.

    What you are doing here is similar to arguing that in the following graph, your DPS is not 877k (the mean) but the theoretical maximum of 1.17M DPS.



    Yes, it is called having a CD. If Fel Rush had infinite charges, you'd bet you ass we would be spamming it all game long over lower DPET abilities.
    Effective DPS includes "efficient". And yes, for fel rush for example, I didn't expected another answer than "CD + target proximity + AA". The executive time is sure better but it "can" be a lure according to the delta of simc executive time of some abilities. According to Throw Glaive versus Chaos Strike, there is not many. If you have 60 fury you will spend it in Chaos Strike and not Throw Glaive IF you have bloodlet running so as to get a steady flow of damage output (you'd better of using best executive time cause, of course no fury cost: captain obvious, during the "bad luck" moments of fury generation). So that, you get the best probabilities to get near the "theorical max", yes.

    As for anni, it's ahead of TG and FR anyway in my simc.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deix-EU View Post
    If you have 60 fury you will spend it in Chaos Strike and not Throw Glaive IF you have bloodlet running so as to get a steady flow of damage output (you'd better of using best executive time cause, of course no fury cost: captain obvious, during the "bad luck" moments of fury generation). So that, you get the best probabilities to get near the "theorical max", yes.
    Obviously. If Throw Glaive is on cooldown, you are not losing any Throw Glaive/Bloodlet DPS and therefore are better off casting the Chaos Strike.

    What you were arguing is that Chaos Strike > Throw Glaive because of its ability to potentially do higher damage when the stars align which is plainly wrong because that minor chance is not worth compromising guaranteed Throw Glaive damage.

    Also, yes, Annihilation is the top ability after FotI)and the point is to get as many casts as possible.

    This is all with Mo'arg+Bloodlet.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepwny View Post
    Obviously. If Throw Glaive is on cooldown, you are not losing any Throw Glaive/Bloodlet DPS and therefore are better off casting the Chaos Strike.

    What you were arguing is that Chaos Strike > Throw Glaive because of its ability to potentially do higher damage when the stars align which is plainly wrong because that minor chance is not worth compromising guaranteed Throw Glaive damage.

    Also, yes, Annihilation is the top ability after FotI)and the point is to get as many casts as possible.

    This is all with Mo'arg+Bloodlet.
    Yeah, In fact, my point is mostly, in a real situation, there are not many much windows to use Throw Glaive when you are not near cap (2 charges) and since it's 9 sec window to keep bloodlet, it's often you'll use it "only" when you're capped, to get a steady flow / gameplay. At least this what I noticed. This wouldn't be the case with
    1) more charges
    2) More fury starved periods

    I can't see in the end a lot of occasions to use Mo'arg + bloodlet right now compared to Demonic for M+ and classical ST with Belt / Shoulders / Anchor. I hope Blizz won't make the T20 as it is OR first blood should be baseline.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deix-EU View Post
    Yeah, In fact, my point is mostly, in a real situation, there are not many much windows to use Throw Glaive when you are not near cap (2 charges) and since it's 9 sec window to keep bloodlet, it's often you'll use it "only" when you're capped, to get a steady flow / gameplay.
    Then we are in agreement. Charges is just a mechanic that helps in ensuring that you do not cap an ability, have more than one ability use during a burst phase, and one-extra use per fight.

    So long as you don't lose casts, how you use Throw Glaive is irrelevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deix-EU View Post
    I can't see in the end a lot of occasions to use Mo'arg + bloodlet right now compared to Demonic for M+ and classical ST with Belt / Shoulders / Anchor.
    It really depends on the mix of legendaries and encounter details but Mo'arg/Bloodlet is universally competitive unlike the previous patch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deix-EU View Post
    I hope Blizz won't make the T20 as it is OR first blood should be baseline.
    I hope so too. Creating a tier-set completely biased towards a specific talent and against a specific legendary is imo not good for the class.

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