1. #1

    What are we missing-- Heroic Gul'Dan

    Hello all, my guild recently got to Heroic Gul'Dan in our progression but we've hit a wall. We always fall apart in Phase 3 and our best wipe yet has been 12% with about 30 wipes now. Phase two on occasion gives us trouble when there are crossovers of Eyes/Bonds or Bonds/Hellfire abilities but it's the transition into phase 3 that kills us.
    Is it just fire getting out of control? We've also tried to just sacrifice two people in the soul well to soak everything to give the healers a chance at keeping everyone else up (our 12% attempt) but we still didn't make much progress.

    We tend to have 20ish in our group and tend to have 5 healers because we are that rare case where we have a lot of main spec healers over dps. We've tried to 4 heal a few times but things get out of control.

    Here is a log with our usual raid comp: /reports/V6PHqDLXTc2JY3Rx#fight=19
    Here is our "best" attempt but had a few offspec people: /reports/VNyKnpPbWZckF3BY#fight=8

    Anything can help, cheers

  2. #2
    In heroic eyes are a priority over bonds, kill them save the ppl in bonds. Have a healer ready to bail the bonds group out when hellfire is going to overlap and might target them. In phase 3 take the fire to the same area and have all of your raid besides the tanks on that side of the boss so the tanks can move away from the fire. Everybody should be on souls duty if it is not being done, there is plenty of time after flames to soak up anything in there and get back out before flames goes off again.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  3. #3
    For starters.

    P2, the 3rd and forth fel thing and eye are pretty shitty combos.
    3rd its eye then knockback. People need to be ready to obliterate the eye so that its dead in time for the knockbacks.
    4th its knockback then eye. If people have immunities here then they should use them to avoid group soaks. If they don't have immunities they should get spellwarding from the prot pala or guardian spirit from the holy priest. This totally negates the ability.

    Frankly, the rest of p2 is highly scripted, if people die at any other time in the phase its stupidity.


    I'm not sure what you're missing in p3. You need someone to call timers.
    Run out with fire in 10
    Prepare to nuke eye in 10
    Soak souls in 10 and get out for fire
    and so on.

    Really the only things that should hurt you are the eyes and the black harvest. I'm a little hazy on the exact order of things now but make a raid note with the sequence of events and have someone calm call them "second black harvest treedude tranq" after that its "soak souls all ranged" and then "fire in 10 stop soaking". I suspect people are just losing their heads and need a bit of guidance.

  4. #4
    You should communicate more, especially healers - there are 5 of them on the fight where 3 or 4 at most should be enough, yet they can't time their cooldowns with each other. People die yet Tranq was used only once, Revival twice etc. Remember it's a 10-11min fight, you can pop a cd every phase at least once.

    Anyway speak with them and set their cooldown queue for each Black Harvest i.e. 1st Harvest: Divine Hymn + Chi'ji/Revival; 2nd: Avenging Wrath + Totem; 3rd: Tranq + whatever left + personal (it's completely random proposal, try to figure out the best CD combo for your group). This should be more than enough to live through it even if you missed a couple of souls. 3rd Harvest is what kills you, if you manage to survive it, fight slows down quite a bit and Gul'dan will be dead the next minute.

  5. #5
    Seems youre heroing twice, once at start ? dont worry bout heroing start and save it for 3rd and 4th eyes in P3. Thats usually what kills groups, just have people loosely spread in P3 cos flame and eyes will destroy stacked people. Soak souls when eyes and flames isnt happening. People with flames just need to get out even if losing dps, range can be on the outer already. People should use personals too to keep themselves alive. You just need most people alive after 4th eye and you got like a min where you can tunnel him. But your grps dps seem lowish though

  6. #6
    I would not advise having only 2 people soak souls unless you can guarantee they won't die. There's no reason for your entire raid to not do it. Any person who dies with souls souked, the souls go back in the well.

  7. #7
    From my multitudes of wipes, it is typically in phase 3
    These are the 3 main causes for failures (let alone our silly 10 man setup).
    1. Eyes -- which should be obvious at this point, that they need to die.
    2. Flames of... whatever, the shit you have to spread out.
    3. soul harvest

    Now something I repeatably explain to the other healers is that Soul harvest intensifies for the amount of souls left in the well. (obviously stated in the Journal)
    However, the Pro Tip to healers, you have to know this 'soul fragment' mechanic works as part of the Soul Harvest.
    -- By that i mean, many will be selected to have their soul removed which is then placed in the well. What you as a healer, may or may not know, will need to heal said targets as they will have a Healing shield -- preventing x amount of heals. Much like Chromantic Anomaly.
    -- This only removes the healing shield and the 'souls have to be soaked'

    Like I alluded to before, we on different occasions been running with a 10 man comp (with 2-3 healers, which is the obviously reason for a good portion of our failures).
    What happened to us (myself) many times is the course of events:
    - Soul fragment
    - Eye
    - Flame
    - (eventual) soul harvest.

    Between the movement (forced by flames), the eyes aoe dmg, and the flames, (and whatever healing shield absorb is left behind), that kind of combo gets us to low health and then soul harvest finishes us off.

    Like others have said, there should be no reason some of the raid (or a couple) to be getting the souls in the well.
    We decided that 'everyone' (within reason) should be getting 3-4 stacks of this debuff (souls) and higher if need be (due to duration of the fight).

    tl:dr
    But generally speaking, the epitome of my wipes are from soul harvest and souls not getting soaked.
    Last edited by Sponge108; 2017-04-26 at 03:05 PM.

  8. #8
    Rogues with leeching poison/feint can cheese the souls. They will need healing but it makes a huge difference only having to focus heal the rogues. My guild uses 2 rogues to soak the majority of the souls. Just tank the boss near the well so the rogues can soak and still melee. The stacks cap at 9 but you can continue to soak souls.

  9. #9
    High Overlord Kulspruta's Avatar
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    On our runs we pulse fire twice in same spot, then move and another 2. Limits fire spread and seems to work better. Ofc. like most said, eyes over bonds.
    Armory - R.IO - If you give a Bear a Bratwurst, He´s gonna want some brains!

  10. #10
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by irsushie View Post
    Phase two on occasion gives us trouble when there are crossovers of Eyes/Bonds or Bonds/Hellfire abilities
    Always do eyes first. Always. people with bonds can stay in teh bonds and can be taken care off once the eyes are dead.
    Them free the healer first.

    Is it just fire getting out of control? We've also tried to just sacrifice two people in the soul well to soak everything to give the healers a chance at keeping everyone else up (our 12% attempt) but we still didn't make much progress.
    In heroic, Souls only stack to 9. Have one tank soak souls. He will not be able to absorb them fast enough, so have him call in ranges to help (have him call *names*). The other tank can tank the boss alone in P3 (I have done so for every single of our fights with my DK, if you have other tanks this works as well. As DK, I pop VB for every single 100 power fel scythe and survive easily).

    We tend to have 20ish in our group and tend to have 5 healers because we are that rare case where we have a lot of main spec healers over dps. We've tried to 4 heal a few times but things get out of control.
    2/2/14 is a good setup. 5 heals is probably a bit much but its doable.


    Fire should be minimized. Don#t run like wild chicken. Stay still and put fire over fire. NEVER bomb another palyer with your own fire, the AE from getting too close does a lot of completely avoidable damage. Pop HT to heal his 2nd soul soaking and kill the boss.

    Eyes are still #1 priority in P3. Especially after the second big black AE, a new eye spawns far away from the raid, be prepared for that.

    If you need to, cycle your CDs in P3. You have enough of them but barely use them. Your healers need to talk more, either you you or with each other 8we have a dedicated ingame channel for all our heals).

  11. #11
    having one or two people exclusively soak souls is a needlessly high-risk strategy for a group progressing on heroic; it's much easier to have several people get a stack or two than to wipe because one or two of your soakers got fire or died or whatever.

  12. #12
    We were able to kill Gul'dan last sunday.

    We also have trouble with p3. We saved BL for the eye which spawns after the storm on the other side. This eye allways killed us or dropped us so much that fire killed us.
    Also make sure the ones with fire debuff dont stack cause the debuff spreads -> more fire-> whipe.
    For the souls we decided to split the raid in 3 groups which will soak the souls (melees last if needed). everyone from the group got 2-3 debuffs.
    if you survive the 3rd soul harvest, u will probably manage to kill him.

    try to keep cool as possible. you dont need to run like headless chickens. avoid unnesesary dmg over doing 100k dps more. its not about the dmg done.

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