Poll: Varian or Garrosh: Whose Ending Was Better?

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  1. #41
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Varian's story ended because he was too stupid to just have the ship's cannons shoot the fel reaver.
    it would have destroyed the ship firing that close wouldn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    it would have destroyed the ship firing that close wouldn't it?
    When has friendly fire ever been a concern?

  3. #43
    Garrosh was a victim of horrible storywriting, and had Thrall not killed Garrosh....I doubt Gul Dan would have seized power.

  4. #44
    We started off all hating Varian and in the end he'd somehow grown into someone we liked despite ourselves, with a heroic sacrificial ending.

    Garrosh was a punk-ass-bitch from day one and ended that way.

    So Varian wins.

  5. #45
    How is Varians story NOT over?

  6. #46
    I actually really loved Garrosh's. His final moments were actually really sad to me, because he did feel like a character that, while he committed various terrible acts and atrocities, was honestly really kinda abandoned by the only "family" he felt he had. He did was a warrior would, and led the Horde the same way he would charge into battle against his enemies. He was in hindsight a surprisingly well-written character who had a saga that felt cut short, but in a way that felt like the only way it could have ended.

    The implications that Thrall still feels strong doubt over the entire thing and now has to live his semi-peaceful life with this family after knowing the truth in Garrosh's last words is some of the better storytelling I've seen in Warcraft or any MMORPG. I enjoy the fact that someone for once seems to actually carry the weight of a mistake they made.

    That's not to say I dislike Varian's story The way he died was probably the best cinematic this game has ever had by a long shot but there wasn't buildup to it like Garrosh's. Garrosh's death felt extremely heavy and had an atmosphere that was strange for Warcraft, it made it stand out. Varian's was just about what I expected, with additional levels of cool.
    Last edited by Irian; 2017-04-21 at 04:12 AM.

  7. #47
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    When has friendly fire ever been a concern?
    So everyone dies and gg?

    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    Garrosh was a victim of horrible storywriting, and had Thrall not killed Garrosh....I doubt Gul Dan would have seized power.
    Garrosh's work was done at that point. His continued existence wasn't going to do much.
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    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
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  8. #48
    I am Murloc! Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    I actually really loved Garrosh's. His final moments were actually really sad to me, because he did feel like a character that, while he committed various terrible acts and atrocities, was honestly really kinda abandoned by the only "family" he felt he had. He did was a warrior would, and led the Horde the same way he would charge into battle against his enemies. He was honestly in hindsight a surprisingly well-written character who had a saga that felt cut short, but in a way that felt like the only way it could have ended.

    The implications that Thrall still feels strong doubt over the entire thing and now has to live his semi-peaceful life with this family after knowing the truth in Garrosh's last word is honestly some of the better storytelling I've seen in Warcraft or any MMORPG. I enjoy the fact that someone for once seems to actually carry the weight of a mistake they made.

    That's not to say I dislike Varian's story The way he died was probably the best cinematic this game has ever had by a long shot but there wasn't buildup to it like Garrosh's. Garrosh's death felt extremely heavy and had an atmosphere that was strange for Warcraft, it made it stand out. Varian's was just about what I expected, with additional levels of cool.
    Hm I never really thought about how Garrosh's fall was also sort of Thrall's as well.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    His showdown with Thrall just seem to display that the pressures of leadership were too much for him.
    "You made me Warchief!"
    "You left me, to pick up your pieces!"
    "You FAILED MEEEEEE!"
    I mean Thrall was like a brother to Garrosh, who yanked him out of his apathy, only to leave him to become Green Jesus, but instead of returning after saving the world, he runs off to go make babies with Aggra.

    I mean the fact that it's in Garrosh's final moments I kind of finally make me like him and miss him, says something about his ending.
    I agree wth Varian, but not with Garrosh, and that quote from Garry and Thrall's final battle is a big reason why. I would say Garrosh being "wimpy" in his childhood is an exaggeration, he was just weaker. As a boy Garrosh was stricken with illness and couldnt go fight in battle with his father Grom, who he looked up to so much as a glorious warrior. Garrosh was never fit to be a warrior like Grom despite trying so hard, and when Thrall came with tales and promises of the horde's glory, only to see that the Horde live in mud houses in an arid desert, he was disappointed. Orgrimmar was nothing like the tales Thrall told about Grom and the glorious orcish horde while sick in nagrand. To Garrosh, on Azeroth his people weren't conquerors, they were just lowly survivors marooned on another world, barely managing to fight against their enemies in the Alliance.

    So when Thrall gives this guy the reins, Garrosh naturally wants to make the horde better. His motivation isn't the typical "[enemies] killed [loved ones] or destroyed [hometown]" like Varian, he simply wants to make the Horde more like the vision he's been fed. More like the stories of the Orcish armies fighting for their people and dying honorable in the first & second war. More like the stories of his father Grom that Thrall filled his head with when he was young. To him, the original orcish horde was true strength, Thrall's horde was just his people barely managing to get by and having to rely on others (unlike the original horde). When Thrall left to join the Earthern Ring and made Garry warchief, he saw it as Thrall abandoning his people, but also his chance to restore his people back to what he thought was their golden ages.

    It's kind of a long comment, I know, but it's knowing all this that makes Garrosh's lines more powerful when you rewatch the cutscene. It's not Garry's fault Thrall left him to pick up after Thrall's pieces. Garrosh was never fit to even be a leader, but he figured he may as well try to do what he thought was best for his people, which is restoring them to the time of glory and conquest that Thrall filled his head with in the first place. That's why he decided to do the whole conquest thing in the first place. Taking more land and power for his people so they don't end up as slaves in internment camps again. When that failed he went to Draenor to just start over with the orcish horde that he revered so much because of Thrall.

    TL;DR Thrall gave Garrosh this glorious vision of the Horde and dreams of conquest. To him, Thrall abandoned his people when he left, and to him, being Warchief was his chance to do his best to restore his people to the stories he heard about the original Orcish Horde when he was just a sick, scrawny lad, instead his people surviving off sticks and mud in Durotar. It's all Thralls' fault. His story may not be delivered well, but it's pretty good imo.
    Last edited by Mellrod; 2017-04-21 at 04:25 AM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Then again, at this point the Trolls have flat out said they're going to kill Garrosh (for no reason) and are stealing from the Horde as a whole (cooking quests).
    You got it backwards. Trolls are taking back their own supplies because in another daily players are ordered to steal from the Darkspear.

    Ultimately it's Thrall's fault that Garrosh did the things he did, but according to me he already knew this is how it would happen. How else can you explain his insistence on giving the title of Warchief to Garrosh against everyone's advice, even Garrosh's? He knew, despite all that living in Durotar for atonement talk, that the orcs needed more resources to survive and could not find them through peaceful methods, night elves weren't having any of that shit after Wrathgate. I think he couldn't make the choice of sending the Horde to war so he chose someone who would make that choice for him.

    My headcanon doesn't really explain Twilight's Hammer involvement in escalating the conflict though. Coincidence?
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  11. #51
    Garrosh's storyline could have been written better and it was something newer instead of the tired "king sacrifices himself for his people/father sacrifices himself for his son" trope. The Garrosh one was a teacher-student dynamic, where the teacher blames his student for going down the wrong path, but it was in fact rooted in his own teachings and ultimately, his decisions as mentor. Think of the Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker relationship in Star Wars.

    Because Blizzard writes shit for story, though, this wasn't explored and they just gave us a one-dimensional villain. In The Shattering, where Thrall conferred the title of Warchief to Garrosh, you could see Garrosh struggling with the title and that he felt he wasn't ready for it, but he only agreed to take it because it was Thrall's orders. So, yes, his rant before he died was accurate; he didn't fail the Horde, Thrall failed him.

    Now if Thrall assumed the mantle of Warchief again, weighed down by the guilt of killing his own apprentice, that would make a fine story. But instead he passed it on to Vol'jin, who made it clear that he (again) took the role because of Thrall. And what did we get? Vol'jin dies. And now we have Sylvanas.

    This writing on the Horde is atrocious since BC.

  12. #52
    garrosh story was credible during cata, thrall had to save the world and he chose a young and bellicose orc who can lead the hord in time of heavy difficulties. But blizzard completely go wrong in mop and worst of all blamed garrosh 180 and twisted personality on thrall it was the worst storytelling i had the disgrace to see.
    Varian on the other hand had a clear evolution from the arena fighter to the strong king with head on shoulder, yes he was warrior king not a peace lower flower kid, now anduin is going from the idealistic peace loving kid to a more down to earth and realistic one.

    Varian story is a bit clichè but it's on another level than garrosh.
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    Obviously this issue doesn't affect me however unlike some raiders I don't see the point in taking satisfaction in this injustice, it's wrong, just because it doesn't hurt me doesn't stop it being wrong, the player base should stand together when Blizzard do stupid shit like this not laugh at the ones being victimised.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    We started off all hating Varian and in the end he'd somehow grown into someone we liked despite ourselves, with a heroic sacrificial ending.

    Garrosh was a punk-ass-bitch from day one and ended that way.

    So Varian wins.
    Well Varian's storyline was also pretty shitty. His "growth" tended to come suddenlly with little explanation or trial and ussually came at the expense at others.

    In WotLK he was just a pissed off rage machine and only strayed from this in ICC for no reason, just a sudden change of character
    In Cata he was just Anduin's strawman and punching bag, doing little else but be a way to make his son look good while he looked like an idiot.
    In MoP he ran around waving his dick around and showing how much better humans are than the other alliance races. Remember the Tyrande debacle? Though a lot of this is likely due to his storyline being cut short. Significantly.
    In WoD he... didnt do shit.

    In books he was Thrall tier of chosen one mary sue and went super saiyin once.

    The only big difference here between the two was that Varian got a heroic death, forever giving him a warmer place in players hearts. But dont believe for a second he was better written. He was all over the place and jumped from one personality to another all the time. At most he just cemented humans in the alliance as the be all end all race with no one else mattering.
    Last edited by Toppy; 2017-04-21 at 11:56 AM.
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  14. #54
    Herald of the Titans Tech Priest Bojangles's Avatar
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    Garrosh: Thrall comes in out of nowhere and steals the kill by cheating in some ancient orc duel or whatever.
    Varian: Disenchanted by an orc after doing a bunch of badass stuff.
    -=From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine. Your kind claimed your flesh as if it will not decay and fail you. One day the crude biomass that you call a temple will wither, and you will beg my kind to save you... But I am already saved..... For the machine is immortal=-

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Well Varian's storyline was also pretty shitty. His "growth" tended to come suddenlly with little explanation or trial and ussually came at the expense at others.

    In WotLK he was just a pissed off rage machine and only strayed from this in ICC for no reason, just a sudden change of character
    In Cata he was just Anduin's strawman and punching bag, doing little else but be a way to make his son look good while he looked like an idiot.
    In MoP he ran around waving his dick around and showing how much better humans are than the other alliance races. Remember the Tyrande debacle? Though a lot of this is likely due to his storyline being cut short. Significantly.
    In WoD he... didnt do shit.

    In books he was Thrall tier of chosen one mary sue and went super saiyin once.

    The only big difference here between the two was that Varian got a heroic death, forever giving him a warmer place in players hearts. But dont believe for a second he was better written. He was all over the place and jumped from one personality to another all the time. At most he just cemented humans in the alliance as the be all end all race with no one else mattering.
    Yea but there is actually a reason for Varian's sporadic personality. I mean he literally has two personas due from being split into two people, Lo'gash is his warrior side, while King Varian is his diplomatic, kingly side. When he was merged back into one person, I'm not sure if his personality ever returned to normal, his Lo'gash side often being dominate.

    In time it seemed to balance out. I think Varian is the best written original WoW character we have, though I think Anduin will turn out good also. But consider the options, Garrosh, Wrathion, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Ultimatly Garrosh was right. A lot of people like to spit on Garrosh for being "Big bad man " without looking at any of the circumstances.

    We learn from his leader story that the Alliance had been aggressing into Horde lands for years (this was before wotlk). This instills in Garrosh a distrust of the Alliance which is entirely justified.

    With Cata, he comes back from Northrend as a succesful campaigner who had at this point proven himself a competent and beloved leader. Thrall then puts him in charge of the Horde. Whats the first thing to happen when Thrall leaves?
    • Cairne, who was left to advise Garrosh, challenges him to a duel to the death for no other reason than "Some Orcs killed some Druids and I dont believe you when you say you didn't order it".
    • Vol'Jin, who was left to advise Garrosh, proceeds to threaten to end Garrosh's life, for no reason.
    • Sylvaanas generally is insubordinate and disrespectful, for no reason.

    So what horrible thing does Garrosh do in Cata? He aggresses against the Alliance who had been aggressing on the Horde for years. He also allows the Goblins to stay in Orgrimmar which ends up running into the Troll living area, turning it into a slum. Then again, at this point the Trolls have flat out said they're going to kill Garrosh (for no reason) and are stealing from the Horde as a whole (cooking quests).

    From Cata on, Garrosh is time and time again given reason to not trust his allies, save for, ironically, the Goblins who have been proving themselves very trustworthy. Even Lor'themar turned his back on Garrosh, and why? Because Garrosh expected the Blood Elves to be able to handle themselves in Kun'lai, something they themselves said they could do. What was the root of it all? Thrall giving Garrosh bad advisors, ignoring the alliance threat, and generally dumping a terrible situation on him with no real aid.

    When it comes down to it, Garrosh reacted harshly to his "allies" going treasonous on him, and they justify their treason with his reaction.
    Garrosh's relations with his advisor's and faction leaders are ultimately what screws him. Despite his bravado, Garrosh does seem to seek acknowledgement, as he did from Saurfang and Thrall. He got very little from the others, and seemed to go to great lengths in order to obtain it.

    Writer Christie Goldie stated that "Garrosh lacked a core making him very maleable to making poor choices, where as Jaina possessed one, thus keeping her from jumping off the deep end." Something that I think is hogwash. Garrosh's core was his honor, attacking Theramore was one thing, but using a mana bomb to do it, is totally out of character. Meanwhile Jaina's core was being a pacifist pansy that tried to seek out the good in anyone....clearly no longer the case.

  16. #56
    Varian died: after soloing a Fel Reaver, posturing to take on the entire Legion alone, getting stabbed by 2 Felgaurds, and telling Gul'dan to fuck off.
    Garrosh died: after whining about how everything was Thrall's fault.

    I'mma go with Varian.

  17. #57
    Immortal Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Ohh you mean which one ended the worst? Because they were both pretty bad. Garrosh got a super quick, super rushed ending, which we should have had in MoP, not in WoD. The lack of interaction between Garrosh and Grom in WoD just made Garrohes end-story boring and lacked any form of closure for others then Thrall.

    And Varian..... I get that he needed to die, so Anduin could take over, but why did they have to do it right after a huge content drought????? When Legion started, it had been years since i had seen Varian do anything and i did not really give a crap about him. That made his "sacrifice" have next to no impact and i was more focused on the hilarious faceexpresions of Gul'dan in the cinematic than Varians own death.

    I would say that Garroshes death was the worst though. It was sudden, completly out of place from the main story and kind of dumm since Thrall cheated.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

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  18. #58
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    They butchered carriages story super hard so it's not really a fair. Garish died in a stupid way just so thrall could go lol not my fault

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamer8585 View Post
    Varian died: after soloing a Fel Reaver, posturing to take on the entire Legion alone, getting stabbed by 2 Felgaurds, and telling Gul'dan to fuck off.
    Garrosh died: after whining about how everything was Thrall's fault.

    I'mma go with Varian.
    /thread

    I wanna say lol. Damn. But I feel there is actual character development in Garrosh's ending which is why I think it makes it closer to call. Since Wrath I'm trying to understand why Garrosh is such a douche, and I finally get some context in exchange with Thrall. I do feel that Blizzard delivered when they said they would give Garrosh a worthy ending.

  20. #60
    Legendary! Pony Soldier's Avatar
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    Everyone here should be saying Varian. He died an honorable hero and made sure he didn't die without a fight. Stabbed that fucker fel reaver in the face and took down like 10 other demons before blowing up, for the Alliance. I fucking loved Varian.

    I LOVED Garrosh too though, let me just make that clear. I liked him even more than Thrall. He didn't take shit from anyone and he made the Horde feel like a true Horde. Made Orgrimmar into a badass city-fortress and overall just made the Horde more intimidating. He was the best warchief we could've had. What really made me like him though as I'm sure everyone remembers this, was when we were in 1k Needles and he starts talking about honor, showing mercy, and all that. It looked like Garrosh was finally learning to be a better warchief and a better orc overall. That was when I was like "yeah, fuck Thrall, Garrosh is my man".

    Then...of course it all went downhill from there. It was like the writers didn't like that at all and gave Garrosh bi-polar disease because after that he turned into a giant douchebag come MoP. Being corrupted by pride and becoming some cliche orc villain which ultimately ended with his death. Garrosh deserved way better than that. They had too much of an obsession with Thrall and while Thrall was out there in the spotlight being the shitty hero he was, Garrosh was just sitting down in a dark dungeon never to be seen until a couple cutscenes where he just acted like a douche and at the end of the expansion and then of course his final death scene in WoD. They even had a chance to redeem him after MoP but no.

    I just keep imagining what it'd be like if Garrosh was still that cool, honorable, badass warchief I knew from 1K Needles. Instead we now have Sylvanas because Blizzard decided to throw Vol'Jin away too. Another Garrosh treatment. Shitty writing that ends with the character's death. At least they gave Varian a good story. Must've been some different writers on him or something.
    Last edited by Pony Soldier; 2017-04-21 at 02:30 PM.

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