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  1. #1

    7.2.5 PTR Arms, Rage, and why it should matter

    Let me begin by saying that I think all the changes for arms were changes that the spec needed. It brings balance between talents much closer, and fixes the juggernaut absurdity of a stat that mastery was. That being said, there is a topic that I've been discussing with some people that I think really needs some attention and focus brought to it.

    The Rage Model and Our Ability To Spend It

    Arms in a fairly weird state at the moment with the PTR. But it all comes down to rage, and our ability to spend that rage. With all the changes to rage generation in regards to the Focused Rage talent setup, you rarely have the ability to use Focused Rage outside of Battle Cry, and using your normal fillers with MS/Tact procs between BC's your rage bar almost doesn't matter. But almost never quite generate enough to use Focused Rage in a meaningful way either. So you're stuck with a rage bar that serves almost no purpose. You either don't have the rage to make any choices, or everything is free so you're spamming everything...without making any choices.

    The other scenario is with any spec that is not using the Focused Rage talent setup. With these other setups you find yourself in the perpetual situation that you can't spend your rage properly and you sit above 80% rage for a huge majority of the time. There is no choice to be made, there is no management, it's spamming your buttons locked on the gcd and hoping for Tactician to proc so you can hit a stronger button, but your rage bar never matters.

    Why Is This A Problem?


    This leaves you with no room to grow as a player, there is no goal, no flow. What is the point of the resource bar if it arguably serves no purpose? You either don't have the resources to make choices if you take Focused Rage, or you don't have the abilities to attempt to make choices without Focused Rage and sit at full rage all the time.

    The spec devolves into a GCD capped spec where there is no exciting moments. There is nothing to think about. There's no management to the spec to think "what could I have done better?"

    Again, I think many of the changes on the PTR were absolutely good for Arms in general. But a core aspect of the spec is supposed to be Rage Management or some kind of goal related to rage. Arms does not have that in the current iteration on the PTR.

  2. #2
    Why is resource management even considered fun in the first place?

    Serious question, because I find it to be one of the least fun things to do in this game. That's not to say it shouldn't matter a all, but it just adds an extra level of micromanagement to a spec that makes it less intuitive and more robotic.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    Why is resource management even considered fun in the first place?

    Serious question, because I find it to be one of the least fun things to do in this game. That's not to say it shouldn't matter a all, but it just adds an extra level of micromanagement to a spec that makes it less intuitive and more robotic.
    Focused Rage was a bad idea for Arms, it's beyond resource management, because any changes to rage or procs will only cause more problems. And it's not fun to wait for procs built around an even smaller amount of players. Heroic Strike was fun.

    So few are playing it, because it sux.
    Last edited by thatmikeguy; 2017-04-20 at 04:52 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    Why is resource management even considered fun in the first place?

    Serious question, because I find it to be one of the least fun things to do in this game. That's not to say it shouldn't matter a all, but it just adds an extra level of micromanagement to a spec that makes it less intuitive and more robotic.
    Some like me find rage management enjoyable because it adds an extra degree of difficulty in an otherwise easy game, and this added layer of difficulty should be rewarded as it raises the skill cap for the spec. Rage management is really the primary reason that many describe Focused Rage Arms build as "clunky" and have flocked to Fury where there is no concern with rage management other than waiting for FB to proc and Execute phase. These same players are the ones who describe Fury Execute as "clunky" because of rage has to be managed to be successful.

    That said, from my time on the PTR with the new Arms, the original poster is spot on describing what is happening with variations of the spec. Blizzard is working to make other builds beside Focused Rage viable, by a combination of both buffing the Arms base template attacks and talents while nerfing the talents in the Focused Rage build. The problem with this is that the any build without Focused Rage is swimming in rage and have nothing to help them from rage capping or pushing for Tactician resets. Also the current efforts to tone down the Focused Rage build my increasing rage costs are going to make it unplayable because of rage costs. This is a HUGE problem because the few remaining Arms warriors ENJOY the Focused Rage build.

  5. #5
    "Few remaining Arms warriors" = it's not fun. And going forward it's bad design. It's the amount of rage management balanced around encounters that can work with it after the other options work.

  6. #6
    High Overlord Eninya's Avatar
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    I'm still wishing Arms had some kind of charge-up skills for damage, like TERA's Berserker has. Focused Rage deals a nice big hit, but eh, it's unsatisfying recycling RNG.
    "We're not really carrying you when the other hunters are climbing up your back like Shadow of the Colossus just to glimpse your damage meter."

  7. #7
    My big issue with rage for Arms, especially with FR, is that we have 0 control over our generation, outside of Charge, which is a mechanic they've multipel times have stated that they don't like. If we get normal or good procs we drown in our rage, and we have no way of spending it as fast as we generate it, if we get bad procs we will run out of rage, meaning we will fall even further behind as we no longer have the rage available to get future procs. Only time rage is a factor for Arms without FR is when we have bad luck, and it only enhances the lows of the spec.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    Why is resource management even considered fun in the first place?

    Serious question, because I find it to be one of the least fun things to do in this game. That's not to say it shouldn't matter a all, but it just adds an extra level of micromanagement to a spec that makes it less intuitive and more robotic.
    Seriously, I think we all prefered when we just drowned in Rage and just used our abilities on demand, only worried about rage starvation when Stance Dancing.

  9. #9
    We have too much rage as arms. This is the problem with any build that is not running FR. The spec is super bland since you never run out of resources. You just use MS, your preffered filler and CS when it procs until 20%. There is no thought process behind it at all, you don't work towards anything. I honestly have no clue how anyone can find arms fun without FR. It transforms arms from vanilla ret paladin into a beautiful dance with several layers of complexity where you can minmax the spec and really optimise your gameplay. Is it perfect? No, cuz shitty tactician can always fuck up your day.
    If they want to remove the focus away from FR they need to add another rage dump. They could turn CS into a rampage like ability. Remove the cooldown, but make it cost 80 rage. Tactician should still be able to proc a free CS, but you would have something to spend your excess rage on, and the RNG would get a bit worse.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Eninya View Post
    I'm still wishing Arms had some kind of charge-up skills for damage, like TERA's Berserker has. Focused Rage deals a nice big hit, but eh, it's unsatisfying recycling RNG.
    you mean like rampage? playing the wrong spec

  11. #11
    Rage capping happens when you don't take FR but all other talents that FR locks you into for rage generation.
    You don't rage cap when you use WW instead of Slam and you are free to pick whatever you want on 3 talent rows(Dountless, DC, AM these are all just to feed FR)

  12. #12
    The issue for me on PTR is simple.. They made rage more valuable in a way that impacts FR the most, making it feel slow and rage starved and increasing the chance of long runs of bad RNG, 20 second CS cooldown is simply a mercy for already having had bad luck to reach that point, you're already bleeding dps through rage starvation.

    And as you mentioned without FR you're just swimming in an ocean of rage. But really there is no choice because FR is still so far ahead of the other builds, the ultimate reality of this is they just made FR Arms more shitty to play and then increased the damage to compensate, accentuating the core issue of the spec we have been complaining about for the expansion, overly punishing/rewarding RNG.

    At least the MS gloves are going to be really valuable again, that's for sure. I hope they find other solutions, they have achieved nothing good here so far.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    The issue for me on PTR is simple.. They made rage more valuable in a way that impacts FR the most, making it feel slow and rage starved and increasing the chance of long runs of bad RNG, 20 second CS cooldown is simply a mercy for already having had bad luck to reach that point, you're already bleeding dps through rage starvation.

    And as you mentioned without FR you're just swimming in an ocean of rage. But really there is no choice because FR is still so far ahead of the other builds, the ultimate reality of this is they just made FR Arms more shitty to play and then increased the damage to compensate, accentuating the core issue of the spec we have been complaining about for the expansion, overly punishing/rewarding RNG.

    At least the MS gloves are going to be really valuable again, that's for sure. I hope they find other solutions, they have achieved nothing good here so far.
    Yeah, as soon as I saw the dauntless and rage cost changes it became pretty clear the RNG (which is the overall problem with the spec) would only get worse. I was one of the ones fortunate enough to have execute ring + gloves before the nerfs and of course the spec actually felt really good and fun to play. Now the apparent solution is to work with less rage?

    That's just ridiculous unless tactician receives a huge buff to it's proc chance or the CD goes down to 10-12 seconds. As for the MS gloves, yeah, you'll need them which is a shame for those that don't have them. Hopefully they don't gut Fury!

  14. #14
    High Overlord Eninya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post
    you mean like rampage? playing the wrong spec
    Rampage isn't all that powerful by itself, and not like the Berserker of TERA.
    "We're not really carrying you when the other hunters are climbing up your back like Shadow of the Colossus just to glimpse your damage meter."

  15. #15

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    Meh, I welcome cata/MOP arms.
    I would kill for having Dragon Soul Arms back again. I have never enjoyed Warrior as much as I did at that time.

  17. #17
    High Overlord kiaranqilue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abenbobo View Post
    I would kill for having Dragon Soul Arms back again. I have never enjoyed Warrior as much as I did at that time.
    True that. Best arms ever.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by kiaranqilue View Post
    True that. Best arms ever.
    So true, I think there is no hope for Arms after seeing them dance around the problem. So I'm Going Fury, I'm so behind on the AP weapon tho.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by bigtom View Post
    Some like me find rage management enjoyable because it adds an extra degree of difficulty in an otherwise easy game, and this added layer of difficulty should be rewarded as it raises the skill cap for the spec. Rage management is really the primary reason that many describe Focused Rage Arms build as "clunky" and have flocked to Fury where there is no concern with rage management other than waiting for FB to proc and Execute phase. These same players are the ones who describe Fury Execute as "clunky" because of rage has to be managed to be successful.

    That said, from my time on the PTR with the new Arms, the original poster is spot on describing what is happening with variations of the spec. Blizzard is working to make other builds beside Focused Rage viable, by a combination of both buffing the Arms base template attacks and talents while nerfing the talents in the Focused Rage build. The problem with this is that the any build without Focused Rage is swimming in rage and have nothing to help them from rage capping or pushing for Tactician resets. Also the current efforts to tone down the Focused Rage build my increasing rage costs are going to make it unplayable because of rage costs. This is a HUGE problem because the few remaining Arms warriors ENJOY the Focused Rage build.
    No Fury execute is clunky beacuse of Juggstacks. and how easy they fall off.

  20. #20
    Times like this I wish they didn't touch Arms for the sake of "Muh expansion change."

    I know the meme is anything about WoD is cancer, but imo HFC Arms is tied with SoO Arms as one of the best iterations and it makes me sad they turned it into what it is now just for the sake of change. Even with the necessary legendaries FR is not a fun spec at all. But hey can't wait to spam bladestorm wow such fun.

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