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  1. #1

    Double standard for "advertisement"

    So recently in both the warrior and PvP section a guy posted a PvP guide video, which was thread locked on the warrior page, and thread locked and link snipped on the PvP page. Now I understand that every tom dick and Jane can't just go making a new thread for look at me rock noobs in the arena, but guide videos totally deserve to be allowed their own thread. If any discussion starts to happen it will get lost in the other videos being posted, not to mention it's hard enough to see them as is.

    The other thing I want to address is what's going on with all the guide writers posting linkd to their YouTube pages, twitch pages etc and nothing happening. They are getting pretty nice and free advertisement in this way.

    While I greatly appreciate the work they do, if they want to start monotizing their hobby (which I encourage, I'm a guide writer myself, but I've got my own blog) then they need to be doing it o their own websites/pages. MMO champ doesn't have a revenue sharing program etc, they could be charging these guys. Not to mention a lot of the guys also have links to discord channels which is all well and good, by did you know if you have enough users to a discord channel you can get partnered by discord? That's right more blatent free advertisement.

    Like the title suggests, there is a double standard when it comes to advertisement. If your already a known guide writers you can clearly get away with whatever advertisement you please. As a guide writer myself I know how much effort is put into these guides, and while I feel some deserve compensation, posting guides on a video game forum does not mean you should be getting paid for it. You should be making the money for. Legit sources, partnerships websites etc, which your not allowed to technically link unless your one of the privlidged.

    Guessing I'm calling for a reform in how the rules are handled, things are starting to get out of control, if you're already a known writer you can do whatever you want, but if your new or unknown you get shutdown fast. Kinda has that need XP to get a job, need a job to get XP kinda feel.
    Last edited by deadmanfred; 2017-04-20 at 05:08 PM.

  2. #2
    Post an example of an established guide writer doing something against the rules.
    I'm one of those people with their PC specs listed in their signature now. Aryan PC Master Race.

  3. #3
    Same with trolls.

    Those that do it non stop don't have any action taken against them.
    If someone who post constructively most of the time leaves a troll comment > infracted.

    Moderation on this site is shit. They're just random users who got appointed by the sites owners, nothing more.
    You just gotta deal with it. Your suggestion/idea isn't going to go anywhere.

  4. #4
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Couple of points:

    Just posting a guide video with no comment or anything attached should be closed honestly. There are threads for videos and having to go offsite to watch a video to begin discussing it is pointless. I'm fine with people that make a well-written post that summarizes their guides or whatever; something you can read and discuss right there if you wish. That's the nature of the forums here. It's not a video site referral service. Posts that potentially generate discussion on their own should be encouraged.

    As well, some people have written to and asked for permission from moderators to post their guides. Others don't. Of course they will be treated a bit differently.
    I'm just happy to hear there's a special place in hell.

  5. #5
    Some are a response to a demand.
    If content is produced in response to, or well suits a specific demand then it can be argued to be very appropriate.
    If there is no perceived demand, where someone simply posts "this is my video", or "this is my addon", then it is a problem.

    Provide a reason beyond advertising it.
    Justify its inclusion.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Just posting a guide video with no comment or anything attached should be closed honestly.
    Oh you must not have seen the threads OP is talking about then, because those threads had some really nice SEO boosting keywords/tags. That's about as well written as a post can get, if his username was JK Rowling I wouldn't be surprised if he got offered a book series publishing deal. It was super helpful to the community. /sarcasm

    For the record, I think all threads with just videos/article links shouldn't be allowed. There should be text explaining the point of the thread without having to use an external resource.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by deadmanfred View Post
    So recently in both the warrior and PvP section a guy posted a PvP guide video, which was thread locked on the warrior page, and thread locked and link snipped on the PvP page. Now I understand that every tom dick and Jane can't just go making a new thread for look at me rock noobs in the arena, but guide videos totally deserve to be allowed their own thread. If any discussion starts to happen it will get lost in the other videos being posted, not to mention it's hard enough to see them as is.

    The other thing I want to address is what's going on with all the guide writers posting linkd to their YouTube pages, twitch pages etc and nothing happening. They are getting pretty nice and free advertisement in this way.

    While I greatly appreciate the work they do, if they want to start monotizing their hobby (which I encourage, I'm a guide writer myself, but I've got my own blog) then they need to be doing it o their own websites/pages. MMO champ doesn't have a revenue sharing program etc, they could be charging these guys. Not to mention a lot of the guys also have links to discord channels which is all well and good, by did you know if you have enough users to a discord channel you can get partnered by discord? That's right more blatent free advertisement.

    Like the title suggests, there is a double standard when it comes to advertisement. If your already a known guide writers you can clearly get away with whatever advertisement you please. As a guide writer myself I know how much effort is put into these guides, and while I feel some deserve compensation, posting guides on a video game forum does not mean you should be getting paid for it. You should be making the money for. Legit sources, partnerships websites etc, which your not allowed to technically link unless your one of the privlidged.

    Guessing I'm calling for a reform in how the rules are handled, things are starting to get out of control, if you're already a known writer you can do whatever you want, but if your new or unknown you get shutdown fast. Kinda has that need XP to get a job, need a job to get XP kinda feel.
    There's a difference between advertising a video and posting helpful info for fellow players.
    If it seems like I am acting stupid, there's probably a good reason for that.

  8. #8
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2-Legion-Guide

    This is the article I was originally talking about. He's got a good bit of detail as to what the video is about, and while I'm sure he's has posted it here for the free advertising, it's also clearly there to help other players at the same time. Ironic thing is the admin that locked it it had a twitch tv link in his signature, literally free advertisement in a post about not doing just that... wtf?

    I asked the admin personally and he said he has to decide if the content is from a reputable source. I.e. if your an unknown your content is always gonna get locked/banned but one of the "stickied" guide writers can probably get away with whatever they want, posting patreons and discord links which they potentially can make money from.

    Now I don't want to tighten the rules here, I want to make them looser. That guys video has the possibility of discussion and now I can't do that, it sucks. He also posted it in the PVP section where it was locked and snipped, they told him to post in PvP video only section. Clearly the PvP video thread was made for showing off, NOT for guides. Even if he did post it in the PVP video thread, any discussion on the video would get lost.
    Last edited by deadmanfred; 2017-04-21 at 04:58 PM.

  9. #9
    No guide gets stickied unless its text based. No one is going to post a video and have it get stickied as a "guide."

    And no one is allowed to directly ask for money by posting a patreon or anything like that. Ever.

    There is no double standard.
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  10. #10
    You would have to be a little bit more ingenious than that. The topic creator summarized his video then left a link, which was no good because he had left nothing of substance to discuss. Right now, I'm pretty sure that the moderation is high-fiving each other, as they comment on how much of a slam dunk this was; they would be right.

    Fostering a discussion about the state of Warrior PvP then dropping said video as a counter-argument, however, would have had better chances.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueobelisk View Post
    No guide gets stickied unless its text based. No one is going to post a video and have it get stickied as a "guide."

    And no one is allowed to directly ask for money by posting a patreon or anything like that. Ever.

    There is no double standard.
    "Ever" this is not true, just to give you one an example, the fury guide (which is text based) has the authors patreons linked at the bottom. I'm not trying to get him in trouble here, as I think he deserves compensation for the good work he's doing. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't get in trouble for it anyways, he might have even gotten permission, but that's just an example of people basicly asking for money. Let's face it "support me" really means give me money, again not saying he doesn't deserve the support.

    Another example is the prot warrior guide has a link to the discord which he is an admin of. Large enough discord, like I said in the OP, can become partnered i.e. money. Granted he's probably sharing that with several other people and probably isn't a reliable form of income in the slightest, but it's still an example (although a bad one ill admit)of asking for "support."

    I'm not on most of the other forums but I assume this is happening for the other classes as well.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by deadmanfred View Post
    "Ever" this is not true, just to give you one an example
    You. Are 100% correct. I don't go in those forums so I guess I am unaware of what goes on.

    Personally it still doesn't feel like a "double standard" since one guide is "click the youtube video" and one is "here's all the information hosted on MMO-C for you to read."

    But the ability to have a Patreon account...I'm not sure there's a rule for that. I would think it is not allowed. Let's see what moderators have to say.
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  13. #13
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadmanfred View Post
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2-Legion-Guide

    This is the article I was originally talking about.
    I looked at it. There's nothing in the body of the post speaking directly about the game, i.e. nothing to discuss. It's not a guide; it's a link to a video guide. Guides here should be quotable for subsequent discussion, i.e. "I'm going to quote this bit and write another post on why I disagree or have a different point of view". I'm going to avoid the entire discussion about Patreon and the rest. But just as a matter of whether that particular thread should be open or closed I can easily understand why it's closed.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2017-04-21 at 09:04 PM.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I looked at it. There's nothing in the body of the post speaking directly about the game, i.e. nothing to discuss. It's not a guide; it's a link to a video guide. Guides here should be quotable for subsequent discussion, i.e. "I'm going to quote this bit and write another post on why I disagree or have a different point of view". I'm going to avoid the entire discussion about Patreon and the rest. But just as a matter of whether that particular thread should be open or closed I can easily understand why it's closed.
    Towellie has a video(s) on becoming a "paid" content producer from YouTube videos to twitch, he specificly recommends to post on the most on popular forums. It's totally a form of censorship to not let this type of content to be shared by a form that is literraly made for discussion about the game.

    It comes back to my point that you need XP to get a job, but need a job to get the XP in the first place. As a new guy on the block you basicly forced into these hardly seen threads posting along the likes of people just posting videos of them doing something cool. People who have legit guides etc are shunned by the community. Think about it, you see this guys thread is locked and/or link snipped and in most cases your immediately going to have a negative opinion on said content maker. All advertisement is good advertisement but this happens to be an exception to the rule. It really is a rich get richer and poor get poorer scenario. Not only do the already known authors get privlidged free advertisement from MMo champ, but also from people followed on their twitch pages/discord.

    To put things in perspective here is the text under the actual forums rules: "Advertisements for non-beneficial and/or non-related websites, businesses and/or organisations are not allowed on MMO-Champion.

    If you wish to advertise the website of yourself or someone else that has a relevant theme (for example, World of Warcraft in the WoW sections), we would appreciate it if you ask permission first."

    1st of all it says "appreciate" so, while it's considered impolite, you totally can post anything wow related regardless of permission. Now unfortunately this isn't the most specific wording, my interpretation is that you can link whatever you want as long as it specifically had to do with wow. So that means you just have to worry about the differnt sub-sections rules. The post he made in the sub section should have been locked as they have a forum for PvP videos. (Granted id argue a video guide is not a "PvP video" and should be treated similar to a text based guide.) However his post in the warrior section followed all the above guidelines as their is no PvP video sub forum.

    Rules are clearly gotten slack on some ends but oddly tight in other. I kinda feel like there is also a possibility that some of the admins could have an advantage from banning new guide writers... i.e. they are part of the discord partnership of the stickied guide writers etc.
    Last edited by deadmanfred; 2017-04-22 at 12:11 AM.

  15. #15
    Fluffy Kitten Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I looked at it. There's nothing in the body of the post speaking directly about the game, i.e. nothing to discuss. It's not a guide; it's a link to a video guide. Guides here should be quotable for subsequent discussion, i.e. "I'm going to quote this bit and write another post on why I disagree or have a different point of view". I'm going to avoid the entire discussion about Patreon and the rest. But just as a matter of whether that particular thread should be open or closed I can easily understand why it's closed.
    I have to agree, the link in question is more or less just a directed topic to, "go see my video" and no an actual constructive post for the forum.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    I have to agree, the link in question is more or less just a directed topic to, "go see my video" and no an actual constructive post for the forum.
    It doesn't really matter anyways, as I posted above he was well within the rules.

    Anyways, what do you expect him to do? Write a couple text based version if his video? That's clearly unreasonable, maybe have multiple links with summary description of different time stamps?
    Last edited by deadmanfred; 2017-04-22 at 02:33 PM.

  17. #17
    Fluffy Kitten Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadmanfred View Post
    It doesn't really matter anyways, as I posted above he was well within the rules.

    Anyways, what do you expect him to do? Write a couple text based version if his video? That's clearly unreasonable, maybe have multiple links with summary description of different time stamps?
    Basically, his thread in my opinion, should be able to carry a discussion without having to click a link to go to a different site. Another reason I am against people making threads with just a link and 'Discuss'. You need some of the main points in the thread, and then direct to the link for a deeper understanding.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Basically, his thread in my opinion, should be able to carry a discussion without having to click a link to go to a different site. Another reason I am against people making threads with just a link and 'Discuss'. You need some of the main points in the thread, and then direct to the link for a deeper understanding.
    The video link, which was actually incorrectly posted, was an embedded link. Someone posted the corrected link, and it in no way requires you to leave MMO champ at all. Just watch it right there and comment directly to the OP. Id bet the poster would actually see and discuss your comments better on here then youtube. I can understand that just get here's my video and a link should definitely not be allowed, but this guy easily wrote a paragraph of info summarizing the points he was going to discuss.

    So on /r wow they have specific rules for posting these types of videos. You have to be an active /r wow user, no more then 1 type of these posts a week, and be actively involved with the comments section of the /r wow thread for your video. A somewhat known fury YouTuber posted a video explaining how to use DoS and his video had less of a description and wasn't locked, it's silly censorship based mostly on opinion. The rules should be more clearly laid out and obvious.

  19. #19
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadmanfred View Post
    it's silly censorship based mostly on opinion. The rules should be more clearly laid out and obvious.
    It is not censorship. The post clearly belonged in the sticky for videos where it would live on today. It was posted in the wrong place and in the wrong way.
    I'm just happy to hear there's a special place in hell.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It is not censorship. The post clearly belonged in the sticky for videos where it would live on today. It was posted in the wrong place and in the wrong way.
    Like I already said that only holds true for the PvP forum, and not for the warrior forum. Also if argue a video guide is not the same as a PvP video that the subsection is actually for.

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