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  1. #81
    Range is a none issue if you place your effigy properly on the beginning of a fight, even if it means to walk into melee range with SoD before pull like melee do.

    It also does not require you to keep all your dots on it, just Agony. Currently, you are not using SE for its damage, you did before MG was a thing and we would all played WiA, but now you just use it for its superior shards generation and the damage it deals is just a bonus.

    It is much much more fun to play with enough souls to drop 3 to 4 UAs into a cycle rather the 1-2 you usually get with SC.

    Keeping agony on effigy alone gives about the same amount of shards you would generate by having agony on 2-3 additional targets because it does not cause or effected by DR. The only fight SC is close to it, is Tych and it is mostly because of a bug.

    Ah, and m+, SC is better at M+.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by BannedForViews View Post
    The reason I would want to muti dot on a single target fight is because it is the quintessential dot spec of WoW. There are plenty of other specs to play. Why does everyone feel the need homogenize affliction with other specs? Just because you want to play warlock? Just because you want to say you play "affliction"? gimme a break.

    Affliction would be much better off if all the people who thought effigy should be removed just played demo instead.
    It would have been fine as a multidotting talent on single target fights if you would actually multi-dotted it, instead of just putting agony on it for shards and some extra dmg. As implemented with its flaws and its tuning, it didn't do what it should.

    Anyway it's gone now, Blizzard confirmed the majority hated it, move on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darsey View Post
    Range is a none issue if you place your effigy properly on the beginning of a fight, even if it means to walk into melee range with SoD before pull like melee do.

    It also does not require you to keep all your dots on it, just Agony. Currently, you are not using SE for its damage, you did before MG was a thing and we would all played WiA, but now you just use it for its superior shards generation and the damage it deals is just a bonus.

    It is much much more fun to play with enough souls to drop 3 to 4 UAs into a cycle rather the 1-2 you usually get with SC.

    Keeping agony on effigy alone gives about the same amount of shards you would generate by having agony on 2-3 additional targets because it does not cause or effected by DR. The only fight SC is close to it, is Tych and it is mostly because of a bug.

    Ah, and m+, SC is better at M+.
    You forget that it was recently fixed to give appropriate soul shards from agony ticks. For many months it was not working as intended. As it was tuned, a single dot on a shitty object doesn't make Aff multi dotting on a single target fight. No need to discuss how much better it would be, it's gone.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    It would have been fine as a multidotting talent on single target fights if you would actually multi-dotted it, instead of just putting agony on it for shards and some extra dmg. As implemented with its flaws and its tuning, it didn't do what it should.
    That was not an effigy issue. MG, what all the crybabies cried for, caused this. In EN/ToV effigy worked out well. It added some micromanagement to the spec which MG totally destroyed. Managing DoTs on 2 targets is more difficult if you factor in movement, and the goal to maintain the highest possible drain uptime while performing encounter emchanics. It's not rocket science, NO spec in this game comes close to be challanging if you aim for just 90%+ and not 95%+ (and even then most of them are designed to be easy).

    MG was way to strong. They fixed that, but it still does not work well with effigy since both of them are single target talents. So they had to remove one of them 'cause of their bad synergy. The most negative feedback got effigy so this had to go. Personally, I would never had introduced MG again.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Eskwyre View Post
    I mean, all Effigy adds is a second target for you to keep your DoTs on. If you really think it adds depth to the spec than you have never tried Focus Rage as an Arms Warrior.

    Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I'm done arguing with you.
    What does effigy add that a 2 target cleave fight doesn't?

    Big numbers from the effigy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    It would have been fine as a multidotting talent on single target fights if you would actually multi-dotted it, instead of just putting agony on it for shards and some extra dmg. As implemented with its flaws and its tuning, it didn't do what it should.

    Anyway it's gone now, Blizzard confirmed the majority hated it, move on.
    .
    Look everyone, here is a person that started playing Affliction in 7.1.5 when MG came out and we "gotgud".

    We did dot it with everything, and you still do if you play WiA.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Shodan30 View Post
    for something that will be thought up and thrown in within a few weeks development.
    They talked about addressing soul effigy back before 7.1.5 launched, I'd imagine they already had plans in the works before they even told the community about that.

    They've most likely been testing diff solutions to alter soul effigy and ultimately decided they weren't happy with any of those and then decided to replace it and started working on that long before this announcement.
    Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2017-04-23 at 03:58 AM.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    They've most likely been testing diff solutions to alter soul effigy and ultimately decided they weren't happy with any of those and then decided to replace it and started working on that long before this announcement.
    Indeed. Blizzard is really going to make snap decisions involving major game elements like talents. If the anti-SE sentiment in the recent threads had any effect, it was likely the final tip of the scales after they did a lot of internal debate between improving SE versus scrapping it.

  7. #87
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashnazg View Post
    Drain soul uptime on a given fight is only about 35-40%. Though our dps is obviously not linear (e.g. you dump UAs only when you are ready to drain), the majority of your dps uptime is actually spent outside of a drain cycle. I don't doubt that our dps will overall go down, but it won't be such a drastic hit as people are fearing.
    I suspect it will be, because the main reason afflictionlocks are doing so well is NOT because of Malefic Grasp, it is because most fights in the Nighthold have lots of little adds that proc Wrath and enable very high Reap uptimes. In essence this is like having Paladins with wings up for entire fights.

    This will not happen in Sargeras because the bosses in there are mostly single target or cleave. Not to mention that at the moment at least the change from T19 to T20 is a big loss too although they've said it willbe changed to have less focus on Drain Soul.

    But taken together just moving out of the Nighthold and losing our very powerful T19 are nerfs in themselves. We will be right back to pre-7.2, affliction was OK but it wasn;t anywhere near demon hunters and warriors

    Unfortunately we're in another pendulum swing, which we have seen over and over - I can remember this going right back to Lich King.

    They give us weak dots witha strong multiplier. Result, we are very high single target and suck at everything else.

    So they buff our dots and nerf the multiplier. Result, we are lousy at single target but become monsters anytime we can spread our dots.

    It's an inherent problem with affliction and they have never managed to resolve it.

    I wonder what the new 100 talent will be though...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    They talked about addressing soul effigy back before 7.1.5 launched, I'd imagine they already had plans in the works before they even told the community about that.

    They've most likely been testing diff solutions to alter soul effigy and ultimately decided they weren't happy with any of those and then decided to replace it and started working on that long before this announcement.
    The main issue with Effigy were

    1. Fixed position, which meant it was horrible to use in large rooms where you had to move the boss a lot
    2. It despawned if you had a boss that phased like Tichondrious
    3. The basic UI gave no help in using it
    4. It mor eor less mandated the use of focus macros to use it properly
    5. It didn't feel very rewarding for the effort required to use it properly
    6. It added more ramp to a spec that already had too much since the obvious talent to use was Writhe in Agony
    7. Once Malefic Grasp was added, Effigy's only use was a shard generator and then only because of the T19 shard bonus
    8. It was a rubbish talent any time you had to switch like Ilgynoth's heart phase

    The biggest of those was the first one, the damn thing going out of range without perfect initial positioning on a fight like Ursoc, or inevitably doing so on Elerethe. If that alone had been fixed a LOT of the hate would have gone.

    I think that Effigy as an idea was great - neatly resolving the issue of affliction's having weak dots to stop them becomign monsters on multidot fights being lousy on pure single target by making every fight multidot.

    It was the implementation that was the issue. Effigy was great to use (for me) when it's limits werent; a problem (e.g. on Guarm where is was actually a very good thing).

    I suspect that we've had to wait this long because the devs have been trying to fix these issues and found they can't. Maybe the code itself doesn't have any capacity to have the thing tethered to the caster for example.

  8. #88
    The idea that affliction is only good with adds is silly. It was still overperforming on Krosus where the adds barely live long enough for you to tag mroe than a few an the uptime on WoC is low.

    Rend Soul simply pushed affliction's DPS through the roof.

    And let's not mince words. Affliction and any dot spec for that matter should be doing significantly more sustained damage than burst or direct damage classes, otherwise they become irrelevant the moment there's not a spread 3+ target fight, of which there was none in Nighthold and only Dragons for Emerald Nightmare (which was 2T, really) where Destro beat affliction anyways.

    What affliction should NEVER get is higher single target DPS than demo.
    Last edited by Lucrece; 2017-04-23 at 08:14 AM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    The idea that affliction is only good with adds is silly. It was still overperforming on Krosus where the adds barely live long enough for you to tag mroe than a few an the uptime on WoC is low.

    Rend Soul simply pushed affliction's DPS through the roof.
    I agree that Rend Soul is one of the main reasons why Affliction is OP on Krosus. The fact that you can get 3-5 stacks of WoC from Krosus adds is just compounded by the fact that all of those adds give you souls. While the uptime on WoC may be relatively low overall throughout the fight, it coincides perfectly with the souls generated off of those adds, and allows you to pump all of your saved shards into Krosus for the next 20seconds to deal a massive amount of damage.

    Anyway, I think the main problem with alot of these nerfs is that while they may be warranted in the current state of Nighthold; they will hinder the spec coming into the new tier. Losing a great set bonus and gaining a shitty one, combined with the inability to scumbag add mechanics due to the vastly different nature of ToS fights will leave affliction feeling pretty lackluster. Demo is looking to be better on ST and cleave fights, so whats the point in aff anymore?

  10. #90
    I couldn't stand Affliction because of Soul Effigy. I have other classes to play over Warlock, but this is great news.
    "Leave your personal feedback, don't try to convince them that "everyone" hates something." - Ion Hazzikostas
    It's actually Wowhead, if I quoted directly from Ion the signature would drag out too long.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by BannedForViews View Post
    What does effigy add that a 2 target cleave fight doesn't?

    Big numbers from the effigy.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Look everyone, here is a person that started playing Affliction in 7.1.5 when MG came out and we "gotgud".

    We did dot it with everything, and you still do if you play WiA.
    Well, the affli guide in this same forum suggested Agony only and corr only if permanent. But you seem to know better. I'd love to see you writing one.

    Also: i main Destro. Since start of Legion. Affli is my OS. Mostly because of effigy. take your assumptions to the first three letters of the word.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    Well, the affli guide in this same forum suggested Agony only and corr only if permanent. But you seem to know better. I'd love to see you writing one.
    That's if you play with MG though

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiroth99 View Post
    The biggest of those was the first one
    For me watcher accidentally touched on the biggest issue back in the Q&A he mentioned they'd be addressing it. he mentioned the whole concept being that you have the second target to multi-dot and get the efficiency of that. The issue to me is that you don't get the efficiency of mulit-dotting a second target, you do the work and you get a partial amount that's so small that only 1 of your dots is worth casting on it unless you're talented for the other.

    The reason multi-dot feels so great is you're melting multiple targets and seeing your damage shoot up for each additional one. Effigy didn't capture that because letting you actually do your 2 target damage in ST would be OP, so it just captured the effort / work of doing it without the end result.

    Maybe the code itself doesn't have any capacity to have the thing tethered to the caster for example.
    I just imagined them making it a soul version of the target like they already have for the souls that runs at you and attacks you the entire time for some negligible amount of damage while you dot it to get around that issue.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    For me watcher accidentally touched on the biggest issue back in the Q&A he mentioned they'd be addressing it. he mentioned the whole concept being that you have the second target to multi-dot and get the efficiency of that. The issue to me is that you don't get the efficiency of mulit-dotting a second target, you do the work and you get a partial amount that's so small that only 1 of your dots is worth casting on it unless you're talented for the other.

    The reason multi-dot feels so great is you're melting multiple targets and seeing your damage shoot up for each additional one. Effigy didn't capture that because letting you actually do your 2 target damage in ST would be OP, so it just captured the effort / work of doing it without the end result.



    I just imagined them making it a soul version of the target like they already have for the souls that runs at you and attacks you the entire time for some negligible amount of damage while you dot it to get around that issue.
    On the other hand, it's perfectly fine to do 2x or 3x your damage in council fights with a shared health pool (which you can actually visualise as a single target boss with extra effigies), but they went with the 1.35x dmg tuning for ST using soul effigy. Shadow Priests on the same tier were ok buffing their spells with their lvl 100 talent, but Affliction Locks couldn't. Add the bad implementation of Soul effigy and the Artifact problems (no souls from some adds, not fully unlocked tree at start of Legion) and you see how the hate for the spec grew. When Artifacts were unlocked, they introduced MG (which imho should have been a lvl 100 talent as well, so you can choose between the drain style or the multi dot style) to "fix" the issue, breaking it even more.

  15. #95
    Deleted
    Like I said:Effigy was just one of a long line of fixes to affliction's basic issue which is this:

    If you make the dots strong enough to be competetive on single target they become monsters when you can spread them

    If you make the dots weak enough to be merely competetive on multi-target affliction is trash on single

    Effigy essentially buffed out dots by 35% for a single target fight - the idea being on a true multi-target fight you wouldn't use it. It's fine in theory and fits with "affliction is a dot spec" concept...the problem is Effigy multiple QOL issues I listed above.

    As to affliction and Krosus...well, it wasn;t overperforming until the change to the adds. That's the only real difference, the increase in dps was showing up even before people got Rend. Just tagging a few adds in every imp-phase makes a huge difference when it procs extra souls/shards and most importantly Wrath. Even if you only tag 3 imps, that's a 12% damage increase with Wrath+Reap.

    Moreover, Krosus is a fairly heavy movement fight: it's affliction friendly. Dots keep on ticking even if you're pulled out of range to soak the pools, you're not as boned by having to dodge the lasers and bridge collapses and bombs etc. Before the add change Krosus was being dominated by melee even though it's kinda crap for them. Demon hunters, warriors....

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    Well, the affli guide in this same forum suggested Agony only and corr only if permanent. But you seem to know better. I'd love to see you writing one.

    Also: i main Destro. Since start of Legion. Affli is my Ofigy. take your assumptions to the first three letters of the word.
    Thanks for proving my point. Again. If you run WiA you put all dots on effigy, unless there are enough targets you get gcd capped. That suggestion is for MG, not WiA.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    For me watcher accidentally touched on the biggest issue back in the Q&A he mentioned they'd be addressing it. he mentioned the whole concept being that you have the second target to multi-dot and get the efficiency of that. The issue to me is that you don't get the efficiency of mulit-dotting a second target, you do the work and you get a partial amount that's so small that only 1 of your dots is worth casting on it unless you're talented for the other.

    The reason multi-dot feels so great is you're melting multiple targets and seeing your damage shoot up for each additional one. Effigy didn't capture that because letting you actually do your 2 target damage in ST would be OP, so it just captured the effort / work of doing it without the end result.



    I just imagined them making it a soul version of the target like they already have for the souls that runs at you and attacks you the entire time for some negligible amount of damage while you dot it to get around that issue.
    You are completely right about the effort v reward. You cant actually multidot without it being too strong in ST. The issue could have been fixed somewht by making effigy a cooldown so basically just like pris crystal, or making dots last longer on it, but ultimately the issue, and peopl who didnt hsve the hood and played aff in EN know this, is there was so much freakin down time. I was still spamming drain life and that was boring. And if i did it without effigy it was even worse, at least for nyth and ursoc, and a lot on elerethe.

    until they add new buttons into the rotation, either more dots, or skills that augment are dots, or new fillers, its a pretty boring spec to play ST. Shadow, for example, rarely recasts dots, but also doesnt have as much flay uptime as we do drain. MG is currently powerful, but affliction is still pretty boring.

  17. #97
    Huh ,
    I did unsubscribe when i read the news of MG going down and the usual buffs bla bla.. a week ago... didnt logged into the game for a week and it was one great week ...honestly... Now i am reading this tread ... man i wanna go back SE gone , SC stays as it is... and new talnet... lets see what they will make out of this gap.
    Btw i unsubscribe not because of the nerfs but because of the mindles AP grind and when you got a little bit of time from work to grind some AP and shiat... they say no you have to play destro if you wanna be competitive... well... That was it.. i am sick of spending AP for a spec and in the next patch i have to spend AP to the other spec... honestly we started Legion with Destro... then switched to affly and now again to destro...(that was looking like this last week , now i feel like aff might be good again)
    Anyway i guess i am going back after the short break.
    Borovinkata , TaHrA , Kazzak - EU

  18. #98
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by BannedForViews View Post
    Effigy doesn't require any 3rd party add ons. It also doesn't require macros. It can be out ranged, but so can lots of things. You can drop any number of AoE skills in this game that mobs move out of/tank pulls them out of. You can use a skill like Rune of Power and be forced out of it by mechanics/mobs moving.
    i said 'to play effectively'.../facepalm And I don't see how anyone can disagree with that.

    AoE/Rune example - And you think it's a good design? Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by BannedForViews View Post
    Effigy has flaws, but POOR DESIGN is a reach. I've defended effigy. It has flaws, and I don't take it often, but know it's there, and that it serves an important purpose, and that I can ues it when I need it, is comforting. I'd also rather have the devil I know than the devil I don't. You all are way too confident that blizzard is going to solve this problem in a way that makes all you kiddies happy AND replaces the niche in which effigy was extremely useful.
    I never said I hated SE or that I have confidence in blizzard... I am just convinced its design could have been better (to say gently).
    THE ONLY niche I've seen so far for SE was dragons of nightmare, where SE was dealing damage to out-of-reach dragon. Nowadays, people decide to use it only because the other two options suck even more in CERTAIN conditions (ie: Botanist) but NOT because it's an OP niche like Havoc, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by BannedForViews View Post
    As to my mental age, when people blame their inability to use something effectively that others do so with virtually zero effort on a 3rd party add on or a macro, then yes, it is that person being a bad player, because good players have always used those things to differentiate themselves. That is what makes them good players, using everything at their disposal to get as much out of their character as possible. They aren't good players because they can hit 2 in their keyboard harder and faster than you, or because they're "lucky" or "cuz gear".
    Dude, wtf? The guy said: "bad design" and your response was: "You are bad player". And now you probably looked at my '2 posts' status on mmo-c and decided to educate me on what makes a good player? lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiroth99 View Post
    I suspect it will be, because the main reason afflictionlocks are doing so well is NOT because of Malefic Grasp, it is because most fights in the Nighthold have lots of little adds that proc Wrath and enable very high Reap uptimes. In essence this is like having Paladins with wings up for entire fights.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    I suspect that we've had to wait this long because the devs have been trying to fix these issues and found they can't. Maybe the code itself doesn't have any capacity to have the thing tethered to the caster for example.
    I couldn't agree more with your every sentence

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    The idea that affliction is only good with adds is silly. It was still overperforming on Krosus where the adds barely live long enough for you to tag mroe than a few an the uptime on WoC is low.
    I believe he said "main reason" not the "only reason"? And it's not about WoC uptime, but Reap's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    Rend Soul simply pushed affliction's DPS through the roof.
    It depends on the fight. And your group. If you can stand still through drain soul, then yea, rend soul is strong. BUT... Look at WoW Logs. Chromatic Anomaly - we can soak crap like hell, we can dump UAs in fast phase/trinket proc like crazy and dmg skyrockets. Next fight, Trillax - movement involved and we are not OP anymore. So, in my opinion - Rend is less of a reason for good affli numbers, than Reap uptime (compared to 7.1.5).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    And let's not mince words. Affliction and any dot spec for that matter should be doing significantly more sustained damage than burst or direct damage classes, otherwise they become irrelevant the moment there's not a spread 3+ target fight, of which there was none in Nighthold and only Dragons for Emerald Nightmare (which was 2T, really) where Destro beat affliction anyways.
    Ehm... no? WoW Logs says dragons were 50/50. Until the fight could be finished in less than a minute anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    What affliction should NEVER get is higher single target DPS than demo.
    That's just racist

    p.s. I miss old ElitistJerks forums

  19. #99
    I'm consistantly amazed at how many of the same warlocks are distracted by the shiny new thing on the horizon, then quickly return to talking about how terrible the class is. You seem to have a lot of faith that this new mystery talent is going to be completely better than effigy. I'm not a pessimist when it comes to blizzard, I've played the game since vanilla, and played a warlock in that time. I just much rather would see something new take the place of something like Phantom Singularity which nobody is using remotely like regularly then replacing something that while not perfect, is effective as it is with just a little more effort. Right now Affliction has 'tiers' of difficulty and skill and I love that. It's a return to the old affliction where skill and timing of your rotations will get you that top DPS , while people who arent as hardcore can play decently with a much simpler rotation. When i first switched back to Affliction after being destro for several years, I started out with effigy, AC, sow the seeds...I literally only had to make a maco to target my effigy, cast CoA, then target last target, and I could at the start of a fight, drop my effigy, cast Corruption and CoA, target the boss, do CoA/Corruption and then go into a rotation of CoA, Macro CoA the effigy, UAx2 then two cycles of MF. my damage wasnt the best, but I got good enough to swap out Sow for SL, then occasionally move out of AC. I'm not a hardcore raider, but i was doing pretty good damage dispite my gear being probably on the low end of my raiding group (I have absolute shit luck with drops. Havent gotten a single shadow relic over 865...ever).

    I have trouble believing that whatever replaces effigy is going to follow the same pattern we have seen all too often. on the PTR it will be OP. then a day after release on live it will be nerfed into stupidity.

  20. #100
    New PTR Build:

    Lol. So our new tier 7 talent in place of Phantom Singularity is now a nerfed version of Siphon Life.

    (They swapped positions of the talents).

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