Thread: ED question

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  1. #1
    Mechagnome Gungnir's Avatar
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    ED question

    So I recently ran normal Vault of the Wardens with a friend and ended up getting ED randomly on the second boss.

    During just normal rotation, are you supposed to maintain the buff?
    Sitting at 22% haste or so at the moment, obviously aiming for the 30% now but it feels close to impossible to maintain it at this hastelevel, especially during unpredicted movement.

  2. #2
    If you have > 16.7% but < 30% Haste, you do SS > LS > SS > LS > repeat. Alternatively, you can just do your normal rotation, but be sure to spam 3 SSs in a row to get the cost reductions (you save 21 AsP this way each time you burst off 3 SSs), instead of firing them randomly.

    If you have > 30% Haste, you do SS > LS > SS > SWx2 > repeat, maintaining the buff as long as you can.

    Regardless of what you do, you typically don't want to SS (without ED buff up) until you have > 90 AsP or as close to 100 without wasting any.
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  3. #3
    Mechagnome Gungnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    If you have > 16.7% but < 30% Haste, you do SS > LS > SS > LS > repeat. Alternatively, you can just do your normal rotation, but be sure to spam 3 SSs in a row to get the cost reductions (you save 21 AsP this way each time you burst off 3 SSs), instead of firing them randomly.

    If you have > 30% Haste, you do SS > LS > SS > SWx2 > repeat, maintaining the buff as long as you can.

    Regardless of what you do, you typically don't want to SS (without ED buff up) until you have > 90 AsP or as close to 100 without wasting any.
    Thanks, that's precisely the information I was looking for.

  4. #4
    So you don't care about overcapping your empowerments during your spender rotation ?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Izi View Post
    So you don't care about overcapping your empowerments during your spender rotation ?
    You don't. The goal is to cast as many cheap Starsurges as you can. Also to add to what Polarthief said under Lust + some Metronome stacks + some Moon and Stars stacks OR Whispers trinket proc it's possible to cast 2xSS - 2xLS. I personally use ED Haste tracker aura to be sure it's possible, grab it here https://wago.io/N1KclHjo-

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by vorchun View Post
    You don't. The goal is to cast as many cheap Starsurges as you can. Also to add to what Polarthief said under Lust + some Metronome stacks + some Moon and Stars stacks OR Whispers trinket proc it's possible to cast 2xSS - 2xLS. I personally use ED Haste tracker aura to be sure it's possible, grab it here https://wago.io/N1KclHjo-
    But before the 30% haste breakpoint, when you're only doing only SS => LS => SS (so outside of trinket procs), do you still try to not overcap ?

    I'm currently sitting at 20% haste, but working towards 32%, and got Whispers and Metronome, so while practicing i see the windows where you can double wrath, or full moon, or Wrath+LS, but i still have downtimes where i start the spending rotation and nothing procs, so the only thing i can do i either wrath or LS.

    Should i LS mindlessly until i run out of AP and then care about the empowerment ?
    Last edited by Izi; 2017-04-22 at 02:45 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Izi View Post
    But before the 30% haste breakpoint, when you're only doing only SS => LS => SS (so outside of trinket procs), do you still try to not overcap ?

    I'm currently sitting at 20% haste, but working towards 32%, and got Whispers and Metronome, so while practicing i see the windows where you can double wrath, or full moon, or Wrath+LS, but i still have downtimes where i start the spending rotation and nothing procs, so the only thing i can do i either wrath or LS.

    Should i LS mindlessly until i run out of AP and then care about the empowerment ?
    Yes, keep doing the same rotation until you don't have enough AP for SS.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Izi View Post
    So you don't care about overcapping your empowerments during your spender rotation ?
    Short Answer: No you don't care, regardless of your Haste.


    Long Answer: The optimal "Surgeweaving" rotation (as it's been coined by the community) is to maximize the amount of Starsurges you can cast, that's it. Your entire goal is to get as much AsP as you can (which is why 30% Haste is really good to get because 2x SW (20 AsP) > 1x LS (15 AsP)) to keep your ED buff up as long as possible. An empowered spell is significantly weaker than Starsurge, so you don't care about it, whereas a non-ED rotation doesn't get nearly as many Starsurges, so it's ideal not to waste an Empowerment (though wasting Astral Power is still worse than losing an Empowerment), but when you're generating stupid amounts of Empowerments, they're not nearly as useful.

    This is why if you're under 30% Haste, you do SS > LS > SS > LS, and just waste the hell out of your Solar Empowerments. Not only will this result in a much shorter ED uptime (due to only 15 AsP per SS instead of 20), but the filler damage is also weaker (2x SW > 1x LS in terms of both damage and AsP). Now if we could ever get enough Haste to fit a SW and LS between each SS, the entire rotation would just be getting to ~70 or so AsP and going SS > LS SW > SS > LS SW > repeat, which would result in not only positive (and wasted) AsP, but you wouldn't be wasting nearly as many Empowerments since you'd be using both between each SS, but this requires 56.7% Haste.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Short Answer: No you don't care, regardless of your Haste.


    Long Answer: The optimal "Surgeweaving" rotation (as it's been coined by the community) is to maximize the amount of Starsurges you can cast, that's it. Your entire goal is to get as much AsP as you can (which is why 30% Haste is really good to get because 2x SW (20 AsP) > 1x LS (15 AsP)) to keep your ED buff up as long as possible. An empowered spell is significantly weaker than Starsurge, so you don't care about it, whereas a non-ED rotation doesn't get nearly as many Starsurges, so it's ideal not to waste an Empowerment (though wasting Astral Power is still worse than losing an Empowerment), but when you're generating stupid amounts of Empowerments, they're not nearly as useful.

    This is why if you're under 30% Haste, you do SS > LS > SS > LS, and just waste the hell out of your Solar Empowerments. Not only will this result in a much shorter ED uptime (due to only 15 AsP per SS instead of 20), but the filler damage is also weaker (2x SW > 1x LS in terms of both damage and AsP). Now if we could ever get enough Haste to fit a SW and LS between each SS, the entire rotation would just be getting to ~70 or so AsP and going SS > LS SW > SS > LS SW > repeat, which would result in not only positive (and wasted) AsP, but you wouldn't be wasting nearly as many Empowerments since you'd be using both between each SS, but this requires 56.7% Haste.
    Thanks a lot, that's crystal clear !

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Izi View Post
    Thanks a lot, that's crystal clear !
    That was the plan! Glad to help
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    Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit.
    Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and stuff.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Short Answer: No you don't care, regardless of your Haste.


    Long Answer: The optimal "Surgeweaving" rotation (as it's been coined by the community) is to maximize the amount of Starsurges you can cast, that's it. Your entire goal is to get as much AsP as you can (which is why 30% Haste is really good to get because 2x SW (20 AsP) > 1x LS (15 AsP)) to keep your ED buff up as long as possible. An empowered spell is significantly weaker than Starsurge, so you don't care about it, whereas a non-ED rotation doesn't get nearly as many Starsurges, so it's ideal not to waste an Empowerment (though wasting Astral Power is still worse than losing an Empowerment), but when you're generating stupid amounts of Empowerments, they're not nearly as useful.

    This is why if you're under 30% Haste, you do SS > LS > SS > LS, and just waste the hell out of your Solar Empowerments. Not only will this result in a much shorter ED uptime (due to only 15 AsP per SS instead of 20), but the filler damage is also weaker (2x SW > 1x LS in terms of both damage and AsP). Now if we could ever get enough Haste to fit a SW and LS between each SS, the entire rotation would just be getting to ~70 or so AsP and going SS > LS SW > SS > LS SW > repeat, which would result in not only positive (and wasted) AsP, but you wouldn't be wasting nearly as many Empowerments since you'd be using both between each SS, but this requires 56.7% Haste.
    I got ED last night and I am trying to figure out what I want to do with my gear and rotation and what not to get the most of it. Wanted to say thank you for your post because it brought a lot of clarity to the rotation. I was thinking about using an 890 haste stat stick over my metronome for haste consistency.

    Would I be best to get as much haste gear as possible? my mastery drops kinda low in the 50-55% range. I feel like anytime I am below 60% mastery it just feels terrible. Just trying to wrangle in my rotation before tuesday.

    Thanks again for that post polar.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nijurez View Post
    I got ED last night and I am trying to figure out what I want to do with my gear and rotation and what not to get the most of it. Wanted to say thank you for your post because it brought a lot of clarity to the rotation. I was thinking about using an 890 haste stat stick over my metronome for haste consistency.

    Would I be best to get as much haste gear as possible? my mastery drops kinda low in the 50-55% range. I feel like anytime I am below 60% mastery it just feels terrible. Just trying to wrangle in my rotation before tuesday.

    Thanks again for that post polar.
    Note: Keep in mind that I am an anti-ED player, so my logic/information may not be the most useful to you. I'd recommend getting a second opinion from someone who actually uses the thing, since I run Memekin/AoE spec 100% of the time (even on fights like Krosus and Trilliax).

    If you're under ~30.5% (give or take based on your latency), you should definitely be running that Haste stick. Until you hit ~30.5%, passive Haste is your #1 priority bar none. If you can get 30.5% without trinkets, then you can put on Metronome and/or Whispers. Be sure to get a WA/Addon/whatever to track your Haste which should tell you what spells to be using (part of why I dislike ED and will never bother to optimize it), especially during Lust/Incarnation, but also during Metronome and Whispers procs. Be sure to track Whispers procs (both the good and bad) since you can't use the normal 30% rotation during Devil's Due (the bad part of Whispers).

    Once you're above 30.5%, you could probably focus a bit more on Mastery (once you have 2P T20, maybe even some Crit to stack on that sweet Starsurge tier bonus).

    At least, that's my interpretation of it, though until my guild wants to get serious and I'm not like Top 5 every fight (even on single-target fights) for our Mythic "progression", I'll just run with what I find the most enjoyable, which at the moment is Memekin and never using ED.
    Uses the same signature for over a year, just randomly gets infracted for it recently.
    Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit.
    Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and stuff.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Note: Keep in mind that I am an anti-ED player, so my logic/information may not be the most useful to you. I'd recommend getting a second opinion from someone who actually uses the thing, since I run Memekin/AoE spec 100% of the time (even on fights like Krosus and Trilliax).

    If you're under ~30.5% (give or take based on your latency), you should definitely be running that Haste stick. Until you hit ~30.5%, passive Haste is your #1 priority bar none. If you can get 30.5% without trinkets, then you can put on Metronome and/or Whispers. Be sure to get a WA/Addon/whatever to track your Haste which should tell you what spells to be using (part of why I dislike ED and will never bother to optimize it), especially during Lust/Incarnation, but also during Metronome and Whispers procs. Be sure to track Whispers procs (both the good and bad) since you can't use the normal 30% rotation during Devil's Due (the bad part of Whispers).

    Once you're above 30.5%, you could probably focus a bit more on Mastery (once you have 2P T20, maybe even some Crit to stack on that sweet Starsurge tier bonus).

    At least, that's my interpretation of it, though until my guild wants to get serious and I'm not like Top 5 every fight (even on single-target fights) for our Mythic "progression", I'll just run with what I find the most enjoyable, which at the moment is Memekin and never using ED.
    I am intrigued in the only starfall/memekin build, I don't want to hijack the post here, and i dont know if you can message me separately, but i am interested in what you are running gear wise for this. thanks for the ED tips as well. Ive seen you mention before that you only play the aoe build so I would like to know more.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nijurez View Post
    I got ED last night and I am trying to figure out what I want to do with my gear and rotation and what not to get the most of it. Wanted to say thank you for your post because it brought a lot of clarity to the rotation. I was thinking about using an 890 haste stat stick over my metronome for haste consistency.

    Would I be best to get as much haste gear as possible? my mastery drops kinda low in the 50-55% range. I feel like anytime I am below 60% mastery it just feels terrible. Just trying to wrangle in my rotation before tuesday.

    Thanks again for that post polar.
    Depends on your ilvl and overall stat balance. You could sim yourself to find out exactly. You don't want to sacrifice ilvl and int/mastery unless your close to the break point. Equip a whole bunch of gear to get you to the 11,250 or get high enough that at 1-2 stacks you'll be there.

    My gear isn't optimised (16% crit, 25% haste, 60% mastery) and I'm still parsing around the 90-95% with ED + LatC [don't have ring or bracers :-( ] so you can do whatever works for you. It's not that crucial to get to the 30% breakpoint for good ED dps.

  15. #15
    On heroic? ED dps is pretty bad without the breakpoint and just okay in terms of effort put in and reward for being ignored by encounter mechanics

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nijurez View Post
    I am intrigued in the only starfall/memekin build, I don't want to hijack the post here, and i dont know if you can message me separately, but i am interested in what you are running gear wise for this. thanks for the ED tips as well. Ive seen you mention before that you only play the aoe build so I would like to know more.
    I'm not using "Starfall only", I use Starfall in any situation of 2+ targets (targets like bots on Trilliax or Fel Soul on Mythic Spellblade don't count), and still use Starsurge on single target. Gearwise I'm still running the same, prioritizing Haste over Mastery. Even with this build, Crit's value will increase a bit (not as big) with 2P T20 because there are times you will Starsurge, especially if you're running with OI (which until I get SotA in 7.2.5, I'm running with OI/IFE on nearly every fight, sometimes replacing OI or IFE for LATC).

    But that's all I'll say here. Feel free to PM me here or poke me on Discord (Polarthief#8092) if you want to know more, so I don't have to completely derail this ED thread

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PowerGamez View Post
    You don't want to sacrifice ilvl and int/mastery unless your close to the break point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myztikrice View Post
    On heroic? ED dps is pretty bad without the breakpoint and just okay in terms of effort put in and reward for being ignored by encounter mechanics
    If you can't get the breakpoint without sacrificing tons of iLvls, you shouldn't even use ED to begin with because it's just not worth it. The way Blizzard intended it (just spam Starsurge til you can't anymore) gives a significantly weaker benefit while also taking up a high-budget slot (helm) with no Haste on it, and that's pretty much how you'll use it unless you want to do the weaker Surgeweaving rotation of SS > LS > SS > LS, which wastes all Solar Empowerments and cannot stay up as long (and arguably, not all that worth it).
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  17. #17
    I'm not sure why someone would just refuse to use ED on fights where it performs significantly better then AoE spec. Or where the performance is going to better help your guild get a kill.

    I guess some people prioritize "fun" over performance though and don't care about numbers, that's fair. Though I don't really see what's any more fun about the AoE spec vs surgeweaving. Surgeweaving has a significantly higher skill cap though in my experience, I guess I'd consider optimizing that more fun then spamming starfall heh. Anyways...another tip for ED


    There's many times during the course of a fight (if you have metronome, whispers) that one or the other procs, but not together (not enough haste for LSx2 > SSx2 repeat) I find best results come from:

    SS > LS > SW > SS > LS > SW > SS etc.

    This would be if Incarnation is up with no hero/lust, or just whispers proc, or just metronome proc etc.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by joltcola1234 View Post
    I'm not sure why someone would just refuse to use ED on fights where it performs significantly better then AoE spec. Or where the performance is going to better help your guild get a kill.

    I guess some people prioritize "fun" over performance though and don't care about numbers, that's fair. Though I don't really see what's any more fun about the AoE spec vs surgeweaving. Surgeweaving has a significantly higher skill cap though in my experience, I guess I'd consider optimizing that more fun then spamming starfall heh.
    Probably because we outgear the fuck out of fights and don't have sub 10% wipes. We wipe because people are dumb and stand in Solar Collapses or don't line up correctly for Seeker Swarms. Me using ED (and thus not having as much fun) doesn't fix stupid. Never has, never will. All it does is turn me into a less mobile turret that doesn't want to move as much and can't AoE for shit.

    Also, I care plenty about my numbers, but not if I have to use ED. Not everyone is going to (nor needs to) play the same and I don't understand why this concept sounds foreign. I'm even 7/10M (and no, I'm not being carried) and for someone who doesn't care to use ST talents/setup for ST fights, I'd say that's pretty damn good.

    PS: There are plenty of times where having Stellar Drift is invaluable and almost no fights in Nighthold are 100% ST (the only fight that is would be Trilliax non-Mythic, and even then you could get a nice Sunfire cleave to the Scrubbers for ShS procs). Sure ST may perform better DPS, but if it's less fun, less mobile, and even does less DPS on the priority moments of an ST fight (such as Krosus Pitches or any adds on Tichondrius), then meh, I don't really care. I'm getting fights down just fine and wouldn't be any further along if I was an ED build.

    Quote Originally Posted by joltcola1234 View Post
    SS > LS > SW > SS > LS > SW > SS etc.

    This would be if Incarnation is up with no hero/lust.
    If you use Incarnation, you have 0% bonus Haste. You should explain how you at least need a few stacks of Star Power first. How many? I don't know, because I'm just some scrub who doesn't use ED nor care about numbers. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2017-05-16 at 05:48 AM.
    Uses the same signature for over a year, just randomly gets infracted for it recently.
    Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit.
    Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and stuff.

  19. #19
    I don't blame you for having fun, but you can't in all honesty say trilliax Sunfire cleave for ShS proccs is acceptable (unless you ofc play aoebuild as you do - still not better APgen than BotA) :P You'd still get less AP than from BotA unless you're actually TRYING to move all the time.

  20. #20
    Don't worry man, it happens to the best of us. Sometimes the little head just won't listen and the best thing to do is just make sure the girl has a good time despite your ED

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