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  1. #1

    Aggro decks require more skill

    So on my time being banned I decided to go full on competitive and I've noticed that aggro decks tend to require more skill than control. For example in an agro vs control matchup, the encounter is totally defined by what the control deck draws. If they draw their answers, the aggro deck lost, if not the aggro wins. In a control vs control the winner is decided by the one who was the more value and while that requires skill, some misplays are forgiven. Whereas in the aggro vs aggro match up, the winner is defined in the early turns so a single misplay can cost you the game. So, in this type of matchup if you don't play perfectly you loose.

  2. #2
    You basically said aggro plays what they have and the opponent determines if they win or not. How is that skill?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueobelisk View Post
    You basically said aggro plays what they have and the opponent determines if they win or not. How is that skill?
    In a control v aggro match up, yes, the game is very much determined by draw RNG from the control side. This has more to do with aggro v aggro matchup. Should've been more specific.
    Last edited by NED funded; 2017-04-28 at 03:01 PM.

  4. #4
    I wouldn't go so far as to say that aggro requires more skill, but I do agree that most control decks require less skill than people give credit to, and on the flip side I believe aggro decks require a little more skill than what many in the community say.

    For example, people say your run of the mill control deck (whether a more recent one like Reno Lock or an older like the old Wallet Control Warrior) took skill when all it came down to was sitting on the answers for the threats you knew your opponent had in their deck, meanwhile passing and maybe summoning 1 or 2 unimportant minions. Such empty boards, many stall, wow! If for some reason the other opponent had to use a key removal you knew a good portion of the time that you just won. The only skill really came down to Dirty Ratting Kazakus/Reno/Brann or a big minion into a Brawl. Knowing exactly what you're supposed to hold onto for every single game & stalling isn't really my definition of complex skill.

    Meanwhile, players say that aggro decks don't take skill, yet in my experience of playing aggro much more often back in the day if you had an aggro mirror match the games were often not decided by how fast you can smorc the other guy down (though this sometimes still did happen) but much more often it was all about board control in order to win the aggro mirror match. Game is more or less the same now, just different aggro decks, and last I checked controlling the board to win & then knowing when you need to start smorcing again is skill.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Pantalaimon View Post
    I wouldn't go so far as to say that aggro requires more skill, but I do agree that most control decks require less skill than people give credit to, and on the flip side I believe aggro decks require a little more skill than what many in the community say.

    For example, people say your run of the mill control deck (whether a more recent one like Reno Lock or an older like the old Wallet Control Warrior) took skill when all it came down to was sitting on the answers for the threats you knew your opponent had in their deck, meanwhile passing and maybe summoning 1 or 2 unimportant minions. Such empty boards, many stall, wow! If for some reason the other opponent had to use a key removal you knew a good portion of the time that you just won. The only skill really came down to Dirty Ratting Kazakus/Reno/Brann or a big minion into a Brawl. Knowing exactly what you're supposed to hold onto for every single game & stalling isn't really my definition of complex skill.

    Meanwhile, players say that aggro decks don't take skill, yet in my experience of playing aggro much more often back in the day if you had an aggro mirror match the games were often not decided by how fast you can smorc the other guy down (though this sometimes still did happen) but much more often it was all about board control in order to win the aggro mirror match. Game is more or less the same now, just different aggro decks, and last I checked controlling the board to win & then knowing when you need to start smorcing again is skill.
    To expand on the last part on MTG there is a concept of beatdown side. In an aggro v aggro matchup one side is the agressor and one side is the defender. Control decks are always going to play defensive (thats their shtick). Whereas in the mirror matchup identifying who is who is very hard and I've seen a lot of my opponents loose due to it. Going face when they should fight my agression.

  6. #6
    Im not sure if you can talk about skill in general. In the end its all about luck...

    But for sure control decks got dumbed down to almost no brain selfplay...as an example i can give you cthun decks, dragon priest, quest warrior, quest priest, quest mage...i mean you do nothing special with those decks, just play boring curve and hopefully win. I used to play HS because of control decks, but since the last expansion they are super boring...

  7. #7
    Aggro vs. aggro isn't really all that skill based. It often just comes down to who can hit an early curve and get board by turn 3. If you go first and have a 1 2 3 curve you'll win like 90% of the time in mirror match.

  8. #8
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hombregato View Post
    To expand on the last part on MTG there is a concept of beatdown side. In an aggro v aggro matchup one side is the agressor and one side is the defender. Control decks are always going to play defensive (thats their shtick). Whereas in the mirror matchup identifying who is who is very hard and I've seen a lot of my opponents loose due to it. Going face when they should fight my agression.
    Defensive/combo play is always more skill-requiring than playing a beatdown/aggro deck.

    You ever see someone mess up while playing a well-crafted boros deck? Compare that to playing a self-mill deck, a manaless mill deck, or even a stasis deck. Swinging every turn in the air or with -walk creatures while doesn't take a lot of skill in either MTG , and swinging with board every turn doesn't take a lot of skill in HS.

    Also, what rank do you play at in HS? Because the people you're playing against are going to be playing netdecks poorly until you're at least sub-10. And even at that point you have to recognize that with HS smorc decks the correct answer for some people is to always choose to go face, because the grind to Legend is exactly that - a grind.

    People that get to Legend every season do so by playing the odds and by playing quickly - that's why there's a difference between ranking decks and Legend decks. Sometimes it's just faster to play the smorc ranking deck, eat a few extra losses along the way, but continuously pump out two minute games.

    The game is not only inherently different from MTG at a basic level, but people also play it differently because of the ranking system. You win a tournament by winning between 6 and 8 games, but you get to Legend by playing hundreds of games before you even start the Legend grind.
    Last edited by jackofwind; 2017-04-28 at 08:46 PM.
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    Because fuck you, that's why.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    Defensive/combo play is always more skill-requiring than playing a beatdown/aggro deck.

    You ever see someone mess up while playing a well-crafted boros deck? Compare that to playing a self-mill deck, a manaless mill deck, or even a stasis deck. Swinging every turn in the air or with -walk creatures while doesn't take a lot of skill in either MTG , and swinging with board every turn doesn't take a lot of skill in HS.

    Also, what rank do you play at in HS? Because the people you're playing against are going to be playing netdecks poorly until you're at least sub-10. And even at that point you have to recognize that with HS smorc decks the correct answer for some people is to always choose to go face, because the grind to Legend is exactly that - a grind.

    People that get to Legend every season do so by playing the odds and by playing quickly - that's why there's a difference between ranking decks and Legend decks. Sometimes it's just faster to play the smorc ranking deck, eat a few extra losses along the way, but continuously pump out two minute games.

    The game is not only inherently different from MTG at a basic level, but people also play it differently because of the ranking system. You win a tournament by winning between 6 and 8 games, but you get to Legend by playing hundreds of games before you even start the Legend grind.
    Currently at rank 4. And I disagree, in MTG the defender is the one making the decisions, which is why Boros was so mindless, just attack with minions that synergized when you attack and hope for the best. In HS the agressor is the one making the calls and well playing to win. The other side just reacts.

  10. #10
    I'll go on record saying that Hearthstone doesn't require skill. It just requires a little bit of experience.

    If you're using a proven deck (which almost everyone does for climbing, literally like 90% of players above rank 20), you just have to:
    1. Identify your opponent's deck.
    2. Recognize what they're likely to have so you can play around or expect it. (Ex. Don't overcommit to Equality or Brawl. Keep minions above 2 health for Consecration.)
    3. Recognize your win condition. (Killing opponent before turn 9, Fatigue, Grinding opponent out of value until their hand is empty, Completing quest, Combo, etc.)

    Anyone who can do that (which is like. 3rd grade level) can be an upper echelon Hearthstone player. That isn't skill, that's experience.

  11. #11
    Immortal Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hombregato View Post
    In a control v aggro match up, yes, the game is very much determined by draw RNG from the control side. This has more to do with aggro v aggro matchup. Should've been more specific.
    Aggro v aggro is defined by who gets the better curve, or gets luckiest with, for example, rolling a SP totem into Maelstrom on 4 to board clear.

    Most of the time it's all about who gets the most dangerous board out first. That's literally it.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkaszal View Post
    Aggro v aggro is defined by who gets the better curve, or gets luckiest with, for example, rolling a SP totem into Maelstrom on 4 to board clear.

    Most of the time it's all about who gets the most dangerous board out first. That's literally it.
    Not viable against face decks,pirate warrior or even secret paladin. That strategy only works with zoo-like decks, which were dominant back when Shaman was at the top of its game, hence why the card was so good. As for the first part, most aggro decks are optimized to draw well, so unless you draw terrible ,then you should be able to win any match.
    Last edited by NED funded; 2017-04-29 at 01:17 AM.

  13. #13
    Immortal Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hombregato View Post
    Not viable against face decks,pirate warrior or even secret paladin. That strategy only works with zoo-like decks, which were dominant back when Shaman was at the top of its game, hence why the card was so good. As for the first part, most aggro decks are optimized to draw well, so unless you draw terrible then you should be able to win any match.
    What?

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say here.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkaszal View Post
    What?

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say here.
    1. Maelstrom portals is not that good against face decks, pirate decks or tempo (aggro) decks (secret paladin).
    2. The card was so insane, because it countered decks that flooded the board in the early games. (zoo)Those decks were popular back when shaman was at the top of its game.
    3. Aggro decks are optimized to draw well. Unless you draw terrible, everyone should be able to win a match up.

  15. #15
    I am Murloc!
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    i don't know man.

    i mainly play some sort of controlly deck, but i have switch occasionally to aggro deck, to learn them and see what it's like.

    I feel a lot more relax when playing aggro, the play are often very obvious. You always have few cards in hand anyway. Try hand lock with 9 cards hand trying to respond to the board, or the new lyra control priest, trying to maximize the value of your hand.

    In pirate warrior, i have 5 mana and only card in hand is arcanite reaper, does it take a genius to know what to do? You don't play around anything in aggro, you don't play around ooze, you smash through taunt, then face, you pressure your opponent fast.

    I feel a lot more involved and intense when i play control.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Hombregato View Post
    1. Maelstrom portals is not that good against face decks, pirate decks or tempo (aggro) decks (secret paladin).
    2. The card was so insane, because it countered decks that flooded the board in the early games. (zoo)Those decks were popular back when shaman was at the top of its game.
    3. Aggro decks are optimized to draw well. Unless you draw terrible, everyone should be able to win a match up.
    1. Those are exactly the types of decks that have 1-2 health minions that make Maelstrom useful.

    2. That card did not counter zoo. I posted my 71% win rate shaman statistics once on this forum and zoo was literally the one deck I couldn't beat.

    3. Aggro literally only cares about up to turn 8, they don't rely on card drawing, they rely on lucky opening hands. It's not even a joke to say that 10-16 cards in an aggro deck are pure filler and wouldn't even be included if they didn't have too.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueobelisk View Post
    1. Those are exactly the types of decks that have 1-2 health minions that make Maelstrom useful.

    2. That card did not counter zoo. I posted my 71% win rate shaman statistics once on this forum and zoo was literally the one deck I couldn't beat.

    3. Aggro literally only cares about up to turn 8, they don't rely on card drawing, they rely on lucky opening hands. It's not even a joke to say that 10-16 cards in an aggro deck are pure filler and wouldn't even be included if they didn't have too.
    1. Face decks strive to have direct damage minions. When their minions enter the battlefield they already did their damage. Secret paladin is based on sticky minions. And pirate warrior also has a face step to it.

    2. http://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-d...per-report-19/ Kharazhan meta. You can see that midrange shaman was effective against zoo.

    3. Clearly you don't play aggro. The opening hand only determines who is the beatdown and who is playing deffensive.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hombregato View Post
    1. Face decks strive to have direct damage minions. When their minions enter the battlefield they already did their damage. Secret paladin is based on sticky minions. And pirate warrior also has a face step to it.
    You must be talking about Wild because I don't remember Maelstrom Portal being used on Secret Paladin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hombregato View Post
    2. http://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-d...per-report-19/ Kharazhan meta. You can see that midrange shaman was effective against zoo.
    Hmmmm that's pretty interesting. I had like a 90% losing rate against Zoo. Everyone else I raped, even other Shamans...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hombregato View Post
    3. Clearly you don't play aggro. The opening hand only determines who is the beatdown and who is playing deffensive.
    Those are some pretty big words for "if I don't kill his minions, will he kill me before I can kill him?"

  19. #19
    aggro sometimes has to make a judgement call to go for face damage or an advantageous board move (free card kill).

    control always goes for card advantage so you dont really have to think as much.

  20. #20
    agro deck is too booring, and dont need a brain for sure imho
    Last edited by crazylandd; 2017-05-01 at 02:37 PM.
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