German interior minister speaks out in favor of 'Leitkultur' for immigrants

[Ravenblade]

Wikipedia as a source for information is questionable. There is a reason you generally are not allowed to use it for school works. Information is wrong more often than not and groups can change information to fit their agenda (they do that quite a lot).

Wikipedia is a form of propaganda on many topics.

I don't know of any encyclopedia which would be allowed for written education-related works in school because the goal is that students should learn how to research properly, however for presentation work it wholly depends on your teacher to which degree it's permitted for use and usually it's required to limit it to the external sources used within that article. For study-related works it's however not allowed mostly because the scope and level of information as well as language and terminology used in encyclopedias is generally not compatible with scientific standards mainly because you could post information without understanding and without verified accuracy of that information.

However I do see Wikipedia as an open-source encyclopedia in general and writers tend to have a lot of biases, may it be in political, scientific or philosophical terms but it is not a medium that is restricted to one nationality and pretty much open to anyone. It also doesn't shy away from criticism which is important for future development of the medium.

[Sneezeburger]

"Opponents also say that such a set core of values would automatically lead to cultural clashes, with a "Leitkultur" being treated as inherently superior to immigrants' native cultures, and that they would therefore be designed to inadvertently limit the spreading of multiculturalism."

That I could see though. Not everyone will be exactly the same in a country. Frankly they shouldn't be. Diversity is welcome as long as the ideas we're being diverse on are valuable to that society. If they can't demonstrate that, I don't see why they should be valued.

I don't see that as inherently problematic, provided it's limited to immigration and not used as an excuse for and imperialist foreign policy. If I live in a modern, secular society that believes in equality for all of its citizens, I want the people who immigrate to my country to share those ideals. It doesn't extend so far as "You need to agree with me on every single issue," but I don't want people coming to my country if they hate my country and its' people's way of life.

[Slant]

Speaking of intelligent thought, how about you actually read the article for starters? Perhaps you should inform German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere that Germany already has a dominant culture, as he is the one who wants to establish one.

You did read the commentary in the press telling him to shut up, didn't you? Nobody here is having that discussion anymore, except him apparently. But that doesn't mean that we should discuss this as if it was the dominant topic in Germany. It's not. We're ignoring him. So should you.

[Rennadrel]

Local cultures should never be superseded by religious ideologies. I think that is where a lot of problems with immigration exist, because many immigrants from certain regions of the world don't have a culture per say, their culture is built around their religion. Heck, Europe's culture was heavily based around Christianity and Catholicism at one point. What would one say defines say, Egyptian culture? What facets of Egypt are brought with them when they immigrate to another nation? Same goes for many other parts of the world. When religion defines what your culture is, that's where the clash is bound to happen with other actual cultures that don't base their lives around their religion entirely, it enhances their lives. That's the biggest difference between most western Christians and a Muslim immigrant. Muslims are so devoted to their faith compared to most Christians, to the point where we are making exceptions for them in the name of tolerance (when no one religion should get preferential treatment).

[Annu]

Emperor included king, it was a superior title.

Kings were those who ruled the countries in the HRR.

And hannover is not really bavaria

Sorry to play the smart ass, but not all German kings were actually emperors. Until 1508 the title emperor of the HRR required the German king to be personally crowned by the pope. In turbulent times, this was not easily possible. So for example the first Habsburger to be German King (Rudolf) suffered from having 8 different popes during his reign and never managed to get crowned by the pope.

In 1508 another Habsburger (Maximilian I.) decided that it really sucks that each king has to cross the alps just to get his emperor title and got the permission from the pope that the German king is automatically emperor.

[Deleted]

Critics of the idea of "Leitkultur" argue, however, that among other things it would serve the purpose of limiting immigration by rejecting those who do not succeed in assimilating.

Could somebody explain why it would be a bad thing to filter out people who are unwilling to follow the same basic rules as everyone else? I mean, sure, every country has native troublemakers as well, but why should we intentionally import more from abroad?

[Noradin]

Could somebody explain why it would be a bad thing to filter out people who are unwilling to follow the same basic rules as everyone else? I mean, sure, every country has native troublemakers as well, but why should we intentionally import more from abroad?

"Follow the same basic rules as everyone else" is not what "Leitkultur" implies, that would be more like "Leitwerte"(see: "Grundwerte" as defined in the Grundgesetz(constitution)).

"Leitkultur" implies you want them to dress like you (look like you; 'no covering your heads unless you are Christian nuns!'), to like to eat the same things you do (including pork; 'take that muslims!'), like to drink the same things you do (beer; 'we are looking at you muslims!'), etc..
You cannot just take the literal translation of the parts of this word in English and think that is what it means in German. It has a history.

[Wildtree]

Hope it works. CDU has to win big or we will get the leftists in power.

As if that was such a bad thing...

Fucking Union parties have to go.
The dismantling of the social web has to come to an end.
Corporations getting ever richer, getting ever more criminal (VW, Deutsche Bank etc etc), poverty on the rise.
But sure, we gotta keep the left out of power.
If it wasn't for the left we'd still have two German countries btw.
It wasn't the Union parties that worked on that part. It was the SPD above anyone else.
Now you could argue how the reunification was a bad idea, and that's a story for itself.. But please don't give me the bullshit about the Union parties being the saviors of the country. The times of Adenauer and Erhard a long gone.. They've been replaced by corrupt jerks like Strauss, Kohl and their political offspring..

[ranzino]

"Follow the same basic rules as everyone else" is not what "Leitkultur" implies, that would be more like "Leitwerte"(see: "Grundwerte" as defined in the Grundgesetz(constitution)).

"Leitkultur" implies you want them to dress like you (look like you; 'no covering your heads unless you are Christian nuns!'), to like to eat the same things you do (including pork; 'take that muslims!'), like to drink the same things you do (beer; 'we are looking at you muslims!'), etc..
You cannot just take the literal translation of the parts of this word in English and think that is what it means in German. It has a history.

Umm, where did you got that impression from ?

- - - Updated - - -

So people should be unable to have a religion if they want to vote?
Is that it?

...

no, but those voted into power should keep their religion out of business.

[Runenwächter]

If you take a closer look at those numbers you will see something different though, for example how people who were known not to be against Erdogan got their passports taken away so they couldn't vote and who are now counted as "practically in favour of the referendum because whoever doesn't vote agrees with the majority". Then the part about no election observers having been present because none were allowed--so how do you know those numbers are actually correct?

Well there were polls by various centers done before and after the referendum an the numbers are pretty much on point. It is also confirmed by polls about general questions about the attitudes towards cricism of erdogan, islam, free spech and freedom of the press. Deniz Yücel being a prominent case.

Do I understand you correctly, people got their passports taken away to stop them from voting? Where did that happen? On German soil or in the embasies? Did that happen in all of Europe? Because Germany's turkish community isnt even the one that showed the biggest support of the referendum. The anti-democratic attitudes seem to be pervasive in a lot of turkish communities all over west europe.

[primalmatter]

As if that was such a bad thing...

Fucking Union parties have to go.
The dismantling of the social web has to come to an end.
Corporations getting ever richer, getting ever more criminal (VW, Deutsche Bank etc etc), poverty on the rise.
But sure, we gotta keep the left out of power.
If it wasn't for the left we'd still have two German countries btw.
It wasn't the Union parties that worked on that part. It was the SPD above anyone else.
Now you could argue how the reunification was a bad idea, and that's a story for itself.. But please don't give me the bullshit about the Union parties being the saviors of the country. The times of Adenauer and Erhard a long gone.. They've been replaced by corrupt jerks like Strauss, Kohl and their political offspring..

Left and Right march to the same tune on pretty much all of those issues currently...

[Forogil]

"Follow the same basic rules as everyone else" is not what "Leitkultur" implies, that would be more like "Leitwerte"(see: "Grundwerte" as defined in the Grundgesetz(constitution)).

"Leitkultur" implies you want them to dress like you (look like you; 'no covering your heads unless you are Christian nuns!'), to like to eat the same things you do (including pork; 'take that muslims!'), like to drink the same things you do (beer; 'we are looking at you muslims!'), etc..
You cannot just take the literal translation of the parts of this word in English and think that is what it means in German. It has a history.

It has a history (and originated with Bassam Tibi) - and different persons use it with different meanings.

I doubt that pork-eating and drinking beer is included in the latest proposal which seemed to be quite detailed; whereas shaking hands to greet people and free speech (as a value - not just a law) is included (and controversial for some).

[Puremallace]

ehh really wish Justinian and the plague had never happened whenever I read anything regarding Europe. Never seen so many minor little places think they mattered so much.

[Vyse]

Man, all this burqa shit talk. Let everybody wear what they want, believe in the god they choose and let them pray and build their mosques and whatnot.

Important is only that, when they move to germany, they speak and understand german, they work for their money and not get it shove up their asses and that they behave like we germans do. Meaning that they dont yell like idiots in public, that they dont shit all over the room they got from the government and leave it like a hellhole when they move, that they tread men and women the same, like we do in germany.

Thats simple, isnt it.

[primalmatter]

Man, all this burqa shit talk. Let everybody wear what they want, believe in the god they choose and let them pray and build their mosques and whatnot.

Important is only that, when they move to germany, they speak and understand german, they work for their money and not get it shove up their asses and that they behave like we germans do. Meaning that they dont yell like idiots in public, that they dont shit all over the room they got from the government and leave it like a hellhole when they move, that they tread men and women the same, like we do in germany.

Thats simple, isnt it.

So you want everyone to be allowed to do what they want...while at the same time want them to conform?

[Vyse]

So you want everyone to be allowed to do what they want...while at the same time want them to conform?

I never said they can do what they want, you should read my comment before commenting on it.

The main aspect here is religion.

So everyone can belive in who they want, prey like they want to and wear what they want to. The freedom of believe.

Everything else you should adapt to your host, i.E. speech, get a job, work, pay rent, behave. Etc.

I doubt there is a god that tells you to yell at everyone else, to not use the toilet or to destroy public property.
So this has nothing to do with believe, but rather with behaving yourself.

If you were accustomed to that because thats how things go in your country (the immigrants country), then you should either stay there
or be willing to change.

Simple common sense.

[primalmatter]

I never said they can do what they want, you should read my comment before commenting on it.

The main aspect here is religion.

So everyone can belive in who they want, prey like they want to and wear what they want to. The freedom of believe.

Everything else you should adapt to your host, i.E. speech, get a job, work, pay rent, behave. Etc.

I doubt there is a god that tells you to yell at everyone else, to not use the toilet or to destroy public property.
So this has nothing to do with believe, but rather with behaving yourself.

If you were accustomed to that because thats how things go in your country (the immigrants country), then you should either stay there
or be willing to change.

Simple common sense.

You should really read the Quran... A translated version is accurate despite their claims. I don't think you understand enough about their beliefs if you expect them to act like bacon eating jews...