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  1. #881
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Are you guys arguing whether Nvidia drivers are better than AMD? Is there actual argument?

    It's just usual thing, AMD lagging as usual with drivers, stunning surprise there.
    AMD offers up more of their card to the API, they expect modernity in engines but we bind ourselves to inferior proprietary tech. Nvidia doesn't care, it has a huge team to write around shitty engines because it expects to do optimisation, exposing less of their cards via driver. Driver engies would prefer not to have the work, as properly delineated, all this function is best performed by the engine.

    Open standardised compliant code for open compliant hardware is the future from a low-level engine pov. The future will come, typical to AMD though, it ain't here yet.

  2. #882
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    Lol, whoooops. Fits you pretty well though.
    Doesn't make you look too good though, if you stoop to calling people names.

  3. #883
    Quote Originally Posted by Life-Binder View Post
    you dont get posting performance benchmarks for only one of the biggest (if not the biggest) releases PC will get this fall ?

    ok
    Either what you are saying is correct and the numbers are pretty important or what Thunderball is saying is correct and they mean almost nothing because both drivers are unoptimized or somewhere in between. Basically it's a beta game. I think it would be prudent to wait until the game is released before we judge how the gfx cards will work with it. Especially if you consider how little optimization would have been done from the AMD side. They have some hardware features disabled because they are still working on support for those features. I would think that would be more important that a beta game.

    also Vega 56 is already selling fyi

    as expected, availability is bad and prices (at least after the initial 30/60 minutes) are >> $400
    I know. That's why I said it's too early to tell. It doesn't matter if the card has a MSRP of $100 if the card isn't available in the shops for that price or isn't available at all. We will have to wait and see how things stabilize, especially with the mining. Personally I wouldn't buy any GFX card at the moment. Almost all cards are selling way above what they were selling for 6 months ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    Say what exactly? That beta is beta and everything is subject to change? Or that our driver is more optimized than AMDs? There are just saying that it's optimized compared to previous driver versions, and you and Evilduffy try to extrapolate the level of optimization based on wording in driver notes. Don't you find that silly?
    I am going on what both companies said. In their words. If you read what I just wrote about the Vega drivers above it will make a lot more sense. AMD are scrambling with the Vega drivers. Their are parts of their cards disabled. How much focus do you think they will be putting into a beta game? On the other hand, NVidia is riding high. They have time to optimize their drivers and aren't under the same sort of pressure. It's even likely that the game is being developed on NVidia hardware. Which card is more likely to get a 20% speed bump? You make your own mind up.

  4. #884
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    I am going on what both companies said. In their words. If you read what I just wrote about the Vega drivers above it will make a lot more sense. AMD are scrambling with the Vega drivers. Their are parts of their cards disabled. How much focus do you think they will be putting into a beta game? On the other hand, NVidia is riding high. They have time to optimize their drivers and aren't under the same sort of pressure. It's even likely that the game is being developed on NVidia hardware. Which card is more likely to get a 20% speed bump? You make your own mind up.
    Both didnt say anything, they just sticked with their usual wording that they put in driver notes everytime. Also, I dont see any excuse for AMD driver situation. Vega has been late as it is, they had plenty of time to develop drivers. I dont expect any cards to get more than 10% speed bumps. We also have to consider that all the tests released at this time are done with MSAA off, by developer's request. That thing is bound to create more problems in the future.

    I dont really get that expectation of AMD to optimize the drivers and get some huge improvements. They never do, and people still expect them to.
    i7-6700K @ 4.6GHz | ASRock Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming K6+ | 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3000MHz | MSI GTX 1070 Gaming X | 256GB Samsung EVO 850 PRO | 2TB WD2003FZEX | 2TB WD20EFRX | Creative Sound Blaster Z | Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme | Chieftec BPS-850C | Cooler Master HAF X | Logitech G400s | Tt eSPORTS POSSEIDON | Kingston HyperX Cloud | BenQ XL2411T

  5. #885
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    Both didnt say anything, they just sticked with their usual wording that they put in driver notes everytime.
    Now you are making assumptions. I am involved with software development and I can assure you that we don't just stick things in the release notes.

    Also, I dont see any excuse for AMD driver situation. Vega has been late as it is, they had plenty of time to develop drivers. I dont expect any cards to get more than 10% speed bumps. We also have to consider that all the tests released at this time are done with MSAA off, by developer's request. That thing is bound to create more problems in the future.
    There is no excuse for the state of the Vega drivers. AMD stuffed up big time and the longer it goes on the worse it will be for them. It's completely unacceptable.

    I dont really get that expectation of AMD to optimize the drivers and get some huge improvements. They never do, and people still expect them to.
    AMD has an historical precedent for getting decent improvements from driver changes. Where do you think the FineWine story comes from. There are also parts of the card disabled at the moment (e.g. tile based rasterization). Those will certainly improve the performance. How much of an improvement is up in the air.

    It's more likely that AMD will see a bigger improvement for the beta in the future based on 2 things. Firstly, the benchmarks put Vega 56 well behind the 1070 compared to what people are seeing in other games and secondly because the Nvidia cards are more mature and have been on the market longer.

    That doesn't mean that is what we will see. We could see the opposite. It's just more likely that there will be a bigger boost on the AMD Vega side than there will be on the Nvidia side.

  6. #886
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    Now you are making assumptions. I am involved with software development and I can assure you that we don't just stick things in the release notes.
    Driver notes are public, you can check them, for both Nvidia and AMD. No need to trust me here, just check.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    AMD has an historical precedent for getting decent improvements from driver changes. Where do you think the FineWine story comes from. There are also parts of the card disabled at the moment (e.g. tile based rasterization). Those will certainly improve the performance. How much of an improvement is up in the air.
    AFAIK tile based rasterization was only disabled on Vega FE. RX Vega cards are not affected by this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    It's just more likely that there will be a bigger boost on the AMD Vega side than there will be on the Nvidia side.
    I agree, but I very much doubt that it will be more than 10%, let alone 20.
    i7-6700K @ 4.6GHz | ASRock Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming K6+ | 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3000MHz | MSI GTX 1070 Gaming X | 256GB Samsung EVO 850 PRO | 2TB WD2003FZEX | 2TB WD20EFRX | Creative Sound Blaster Z | Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme | Chieftec BPS-850C | Cooler Master HAF X | Logitech G400s | Tt eSPORTS POSSEIDON | Kingston HyperX Cloud | BenQ XL2411T

  7. #887
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    Driver notes are public, you can check them, for both Nvidia and AMD. No need to trust me here, just check.
    That's the point. They were quoted here before. In one case the notes said "support for" and the other said "optimized for". Those mean different things. One could argue what the AMD and Nvidia intentions were when they wrote the notes but it would be much more accurate to just take them at face value. In other words, accept what is written in the notes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    AFAIK tile based rasterization was only disabled on Vega FE. RX Vega cards are not affected by this.
    That's probably the case. I didn't look into it much. My point was that AMD have much bigger things to work on then trying to make a beta of a unreleased game work better.

    I agree, but I very much doubt that it will be more than 10%, let alone 20.
    Again, anythings possible. That's why these benchmarks are of very little value until the game has been released and AMD has sorted out their driver issues. And even then, with the mining chaos, people will need to look at the price of the cards at the time (and the games that they play most often) to see which is the better option.

  8. #888
    I saw this today.

    http://www.babeltechreviews.com/rx-v...game-showdown/

    What's interesting is this summary from reddit:

    Direct X 11 2013-2014 Games (2) - RX Vega 56 is 2.5% slower than GTX 1070 FE
    Direct X 11 2015 Games (7) - RX Vega 56 is 1.6% faster than GTX 1070 FE (3.9%* faster GTX 1070 FE without the Fallout 4 HD -62.3% outlier)
    Direct X 11 2016-17 Games (10) - RX Vega 56 is 8.5% faster than GTX 1070 FE
    Vulkan Games (1) - RX Vega 56 is 21.9% faster than GTX 1070 FE
    Direct X 12 Games (8) - RX Vega 56 is 13.8% faster than GTX 1070 FE

    Total average (28 games - 3 or 4 resolutions) is RX Vega 56 is 8.1% faster GTX 1070 FE (8.7%* faster without the Fallout 4 HD -62.3% outlier)
    Vega 56 is much faster the more recent games with a 11% difference on DX 11 alone between the 2013-2014 games and the 2016-2017 games when compared to the 1070 FE.

  9. #889
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    I saw this today.

    http://www.babeltechreviews.com/rx-v...game-showdown/

    What's interesting is this summary from reddit:



    Vega 56 is much faster the more recent games with a 11% difference on DX 11 alone between the 2013-2014 games and the 2016-2017 games when compared to the 1070 FE.
    Shame no one can buy one huh....

  10. #890
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigvizz View Post
    Shame no one can buy one huh....
    The whole GFX card pricing/mining story is absurd. There are almost no middle range cards available for a reasonable price. AMD have been hit worse because their compute side of things is stronger but even the NVidia cards are way overpriced.

    Personally I am using a 460 while I wait for things to calm down. Somehow I think that I might be waiting a very long time. There is a chance that we get a deflation of the mining bubble and a few decent cards go on the market dirt cheap.

  11. #891
    Whoa, hold on a second. AMD? High performance? Surely you jest!

  12. #892
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    There are almost no middle range cards available for a reasonable price.
    GTX 1060 3GB and GTX 1050 Ti are virtually unaffected as of right now.
    i7-6700K @ 4.6GHz | ASRock Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming K6+ | 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3000MHz | MSI GTX 1070 Gaming X | 256GB Samsung EVO 850 PRO | 2TB WD2003FZEX | 2TB WD20EFRX | Creative Sound Blaster Z | Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme | Chieftec BPS-850C | Cooler Master HAF X | Logitech G400s | Tt eSPORTS POSSEIDON | Kingston HyperX Cloud | BenQ XL2411T

  13. #893
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    The whole GFX card pricing/mining story is absurd. There are almost no middle range cards available for a reasonable price. AMD have been hit worse because their compute side of things is stronger but even the NVidia cards are way overpriced.

    Personally I am using a 460 while I wait for things to calm down. Somehow I think that I might be waiting a very long time. There is a chance that we get a deflation of the mining bubble and a few decent cards go on the market dirt cheap.
    Mining might not be the only problem though, Video memory shortages or (NAND) are starting to affect Nvidia and wouldn't be surprise if it's affecting HBM2 yields. Which of course hurts AMDs ability to make more Vega card.

  14. #894
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Matter View Post
    Personally I am using a 460 while I wait for things to calm down. Somehow I think that I might be waiting a very long time. There is a chance that we get a deflation of the mining bubble and a few decent cards go on the market dirt cheap.
    Just buy a 1080ti, in the current climate they are an odd value proposition lol.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    Aristotle

  15. #895
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    GTX 1060 3GB and GTX 1050 Ti are virtually unaffected as of right now.
    The EVGA 1060 3GB was $170 on Amazon in May, now it's $240. The ASUS 1060 3GB only just dropped back to $225 from $245. In March this year it was $200. I wouldn't exactly call that unaffected and those aren't exactly mid range cards.

    The 1050 ti isn't exactly much of an upgrade on my 460. It's also almost twice what I paid for the 460.

    I am basically stuck with waiting until some sanity returns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigvizz View Post
    Mining might not be the only problem though, Video memory shortages or (NAND) are starting to affect Nvidia and wouldn't be surprise if it's affecting HBM2 yields. Which of course hurts AMDs ability to make more Vega card.
    Yes, from what I understand, the big manufacturers are re-purposing their plants to make mobile memory. Maybe RAM is going to be more of a determining factor in GFX cards in the future rather than the GFX processor.

  16. #896

  17. #897
    not even some cheaper cards release for a year? they are likely to have under 10% market share amongst gamers by Q3 next year if the mining thing keeps up and not a lot of gamers can get their cards.

  18. #898
    Vega 11 will come to replace Polaris line, just dont know when in 2018


    it will get eaten by Voltas 2060 and 2050 though

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