Does anyone miss Honor/Conquest?

[Kagthul]

I'm not alone in this opinion. The recent trend in PvP across all games in the last few years shows that people hate being gated from the content because they're weak. For Honor is a perfect example of this, you need to grind all the way to Reputation level 3 to access the best gear, otherwise you don't stand much of a chance (if you haven't played For Honor, Rep 3 is basically Level 60). This system is universally hated by the For Honor community, lots of people left because of it.

For Honor failed for a lot of reasons.. that was the least of them. The incessant PAY PAY PAY PAY REAL MONIES FOR STUFFS ran off more people than anything else.

Most PvP games,

Dear god, for the last fucking time.... "PvP games" is not a genre.

For Honor is an action/fighting game. LoL is a MOBA. WoW is an MMO. Overwatch is a shooter. Diablo is an Action-RPG.

They aren't the same kind of game at all.

MOBAs are about instant action and tactical gameplay. (Though, ironically, the biggest MOBA out there has a 40+ hour "grind" to viability) Fighting games are about being able to outthink and out play your opponent. Shooters are about (depending on the type) teamwork or twitch shooting skills. MMOs are about progression.

If you dont want to play a game based around progression..

Don't play an MMO, ffs.

even MMOs (GW2 is a good example), give options to get into the PvP immediately without needing to grind to be decent.

Because GW2 has such a successful PvP scene... or is really that succesful at all? (Oh, posting losses and cutting developers... yep, stunning success).

I agree with the artifact traits. I'm sure there are people who don't like doing world quests or PvE content but are forced to go through the artifact traits in order to PvP. You can get AP from PvP, but you need Order Hall Resources for the Artifact Knowledge. It doesn't take 30+ hours, not even close, but there's still a decent grind.

... doesn't take 30 hours to... what? Get enough AP to catch up. Problem is, you cant ever catch up. People that are a billion or so AP ahead of you will remain that way.

I disagree with the stat templates.

Since you seem to have absolutely no idea how they work, im not surprised.

Right now, players are scaled up to ilvl 850 if they have gear below that, and their stats increase by 1% every 10 ilvls. To get a 14% difference, your opponent would have to be ilvl 990. As of right now, assuming both players have the same amount of artifact traits, it would be a 6% difference at most, which is mostly negligible, and is still better than the difference between Honor and Conquest gear in the past.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that the base ilvl of PvP gear is 880, so the gear gap can get even tighter than 6%.

Well go backwards here.

The base iLevel of PvP gear is 860 right now. You -can- get some 870 ("Gladiator") pieces from WQs and rarely from a box in a random BG. Which is totally RNG if you even get a piece of gear, and most times when you do it is 860 "Combatants" gear. You can only get 880 above a certain rating (fairly low, ~1500 IIRC), or from the vendor after obliterating EIGHT pieces of 870 gear.

Now.. templates. Dear god, the misinformation. This one isn't directly solely at you, because Blizzard makes the process completely opaque and doesn't document shit... but you're completely wrong in how it works.

Brief tutorial:

When you enter instanced PvP, your statistics are raised to a certain iLevel floor. This is BEFORE your template is applied. It was 800 at launch, then raised to 850 in 7.1, and 900 in 7.2. What this means is that your base stats (Int, Stam, et al) are factored as if every item in your slots is an iLevel 900 stat-stick.

THEN your Template is applied. This is why, when you see Blizzard's tuning numbers, Templates are expressed in percentages. (ex - "Intellect reduced to 73%") It is setting your base stats, determined when you zoned in at iLevel 900, to that percentage of the base. Stam tends to be over 100%, primary stats are usually severely cut (which in turn reduces AP/SP). The Template also applies a bunch of invisible auras that affect your spells and abilities (self-healing on a lot of abilities is cut by a blanket percentage, tanks take 25% more damage, period, etc)

AFTER your Template is applied, bonus stats from your Artifact Traits (the traits themselves, not merely having them - so a Trait that adds 3% stam, like a Blood Death Knight's "Meat Shield", for instance, applies now are applied, as well as any bonus stats from your Honor Talents.

THEN your bonus stam for traits is applied. The first 34 traits worth of bonus stam and the bonus Stamina (only) from the first skill on your new medallion are now granted gratis - but any traits anyone has above 34 still grant an additional .75% stam that a fresh 110 wont have. (At least up until the first point in Concordance of the Legionfall - Blizzard said there is now a "diminishing return" on stam gains from traits, but it is a solid .75% all the way up to the first point in Concordance, at the very least).

After all this, the bonus % gain from additional iLevels is added. This percentage bonus is calculated from iLevel 800. So, if you have iLevel 890, you have 9% bonus stats. And this is a blanket multiplier to all stats, including Stam.

And this isn't even factoring in the power differential granted by Artifact Traits themselves. A Blood DK, for instance, that has unlocked the new Medallion (Carrion Feast, Vampiric Aura, and Souldrinker) is heads and shoulders more powerful than one who hasn't. You cant even factor this in to some percentage-based evaluation - not that you need to, the raw mix is hard enough.

Too many people make an argument for the current system being better because they assume you already have a main and can push your AK high quick and kind of "catch up" sorta fast.

That's a h uge mistake.

The system needs to be judged from the perspective of someone just coming back to WoW (or just starting heaven forbid), and hitting 110, and seeing this pile of shit they have to wade through to be remotely viable, and saying "fuck it, ill just PvE".

If i was that guy, right now, i wouldn't PvP at all.

Im NOT that guy, and i barely PvP because there's no worthwhile rewards and no progression. The ladder has imploded, and the active competitive environment has stalled and shriveled. Random BG Queues are 3-5x as long as they were just last xpac.

It's real simple:

in WoD, you were 100% PvP-viable with six hours of not-even-PvPing, and could achieve absolute parity by winning 2 random BGs a day. If you came in late or were a fresh starter, the CQ catch up cap let you complete a set of gear in a day or two of "grinding" (if that was your thing).

In Legion, you hit 110 and are:
On average, about 9% behind in gear alone (just the iLevel bonus, as the average iLevel is around 885 right now)
About ~30% behind on stam
About ~30 hours of play (at least) from unlocking absolutely necessary Artifact Traits
About 10-30 hours (depending on what path you take - spamming BGs, Skirms, etc) of play from getting absolutely necessary Honor Talents.
And then, if you "just want to PvP" - your gearing process is a nightmare of RNG drops (RNG if they even happen, and then RNG that you dont get screwed by getting an item you already have) AND you have to be able to get to a high rating (1900+), something only about 14% of the population can even achieve (pyramidal ladder system, yay!) to get gear as good as Normal mode Raids, much less higher level content. And it's all RNG.

There's absolutely no comparison.

WoD's PvP (mechanically) was unbalanced and fairly weak, but they had finally nailed the gearing system 100%, only to throw the baby out with the bathwater and the bathtub right into the chipper shredder.

Oh, and other thing the Template system absolutely assfucks? World PvP. While wPvP was never super balanced... now it is absolute cancer. Because the Templates dont apply (cant have the poor Dragonslayers be out fighting a world boss and have the template kick in, oh noes!) and PvE gear all works - ive literally seen a Rogue one-shot an entire raid fighting a World boss in one global with the legendary cloak.

[Nerovar]

For Honor failed for a lot of reasons.. that was the least of them. The incessant PAY PAY PAY PAY REAL MONIES FOR STUFFS ran off more people than anything else.



Dear god, for the last fucking time.... "PvP games" is not a genre.

For Honor is an action/fighting game. LoL is a MOBA. WoW is an MMO. Overwatch is a shooter. Diablo is an Action-RPG.

They aren't the same kind of game at all.

MOBAs are about instant action and tactical gameplay. (Though, ironically, the biggest MOBA out there has a 40+ hour "grind" to viability) Fighting games are about being able to outthink and out play your opponent. Shooters are about (depending on the type) teamwork or twitch shooting skills. MMOs are about progression.

If you dont want to play a game based around progression..

Don't play an MMO, ffs.



Because GW2 has such a successful PvP scene... or is really that succesful at all? (Oh, posting losses and cutting developers... yep, stunning success).



... doesn't take 30 hours to... what? Get enough AP to catch up. Problem is, you cant ever catch up. People that are a billion or so AP ahead of you will remain that way.



Since you seem to have absolutely no idea how they work, im not surprised.



Well go backwards here.

The base iLevel of PvP gear is 860 right now. You -can- get some 870 ("Gladiator") pieces from WQs and rarely from a box in a random BG. Which is totally RNG if you even get a piece of gear, and most times when you do it is 860 "Combatants" gear. You can only get 880 above a certain rating (fairly low, ~1500 IIRC), or from the vendor after obliterating EIGHT pieces of 870 gear.

Now.. templates. Dear god, the misinformation. This one isn't directly solely at you, because Blizzard makes the process completely opaque and doesn't document shit... but you're completely wrong in how it works.

Brief tutorial:

When you enter instanced PvP, your statistics are raised to a certain iLevel floor. This is BEFORE your template is applied. It was 800 at launch, then raised to 850 in 7.1, and 900 in 7.2. What this means is that your base stats (Int, Stam, et al) are factored as if every item in your slots is an iLevel 900 stat-stick.

THEN your Template is applied. This is why, when you see Blizzard's tuning numbers, Templates are expressed in percentages. (ex - "Intellect reduced to 73%") It is setting your base stats, determined when you zoned in at iLevel 900, to that percentage of the base. Stam tends to be over 100%, primary stats are usually severely cut (which in turn reduces AP/SP). The Template also applies a bunch of invisible auras that affect your spells and abilities (self-healing on a lot of abilities is cut by a blanket percentage, tanks take 25% more damage, period, etc)

AFTER your Template is applied, bonus stats from your Artifact Traits (the traits themselves, not merely having them - so a Trait that adds 3% stam, like a Blood Death Knight's "Meat Shield", for instance, applies now are applied, as well as any bonus stats from your Honor Talents.

THEN your bonus stam for traits is applied. The first 34 traits worth of bonus stam and the bonus Stamina (only) from the first skill on your new medallion are now granted gratis - but any traits anyone has above 34 still grant an additional .75% stam that a fresh 110 wont have. (At least up until the first point in Concordance of the Legionfall - Blizzard said there is now a "diminishing return" on stam gains from traits, but it is a solid .75% all the way up to the first point in Concordance, at the very least).

After all this, the bonus % gain from additional iLevels is added. This percentage bonus is calculated from iLevel 800. So, if you have iLevel 890, you have 9% bonus stats. And this is a blanket multiplier to all stats, including Stam.

And this isn't even factoring in the power differential granted by Artifact Traits themselves. A Blood DK, for instance, that has unlocked the new Medallion (Carrion Feast, Vampiric Aura, and Souldrinker) is heads and shoulders more powerful than one who hasn't. You cant even factor this in to some percentage-based evaluation - not that you need to, the raw mix is hard enough.

Too many people make an argument for the current system being better because they assume you already have a main and can push your AK high quick and kind of "catch up" sorta fast.

That's a h uge mistake.

The system needs to be judged from the perspective of someone just coming back to WoW (or just starting heaven forbid), and hitting 110, and seeing this pile of shit they have to wade through to be remotely viable, and saying "fuck it, ill just PvE".

If i was that guy, right now, i wouldn't PvP at all.

Im NOT that guy, and i barely PvP because there's no worthwhile rewards and no progression. The ladder has imploded, and the active competitive environment has stalled and shriveled. Random BG Queues are 3-5x as long as they were just last xpac.

It's real simple:

in WoD, you were 100% PvP-viable with six hours of not-even-PvPing, and could achieve absolute parity by winning 2 random BGs a day. If you came in late or were a fresh starter, the CQ catch up cap let you complete a set of gear in a day or two of "grinding" (if that was your thing).

In Legion, you hit 110 and are:
On average, about 9% behind in gear alone (just the iLevel bonus, as the average iLevel is around 885 right now)
About ~30% behind on stam
About ~30 hours of play (at least) from unlocking absolutely necessary Artifact Traits
About 10-30 hours (depending on what path you take - spamming BGs, Skirms, etc) of play from getting absolutely necessary Honor Talents.
And then, if you "just want to PvP" - your gearing process is a nightmare of RNG drops (RNG if they even happen, and then RNG that you dont get screwed by getting an item you already have) AND you have to be able to get to a high rating (1900+), something only about 14% of the population can even achieve (pyramidal ladder system, yay!) to get gear as good as Normal mode Raids, much less higher level content. And it's all RNG.

There's absolutely no comparison.

WoD's PvP (mechanically) was unbalanced and fairly weak, but they had finally nailed the gearing system 100%, only to throw the baby out with the bathwater and the bathtub right into the chipper shredder.

Oh, and other thing the Template system absolutely assfucks? World PvP. While wPvP was never super balanced... now it is absolute cancer. Because the Templates dont apply (cant have the poor Dragonslayers be out fighting a world boss and have the template kick in, oh noes!) and PvE gear all works - ive literally seen a Rogue one-shot an entire raid fighting a World boss in one global with the legendary cloak.

This.
/thread

[xindralol]

I miss being able to buy gear and enchant, gem it to match my playstyle. Legion gear never felt special to me and tbh I coudln't care less if I randomly 'won' a 890 from winning an arena match because it's completely meaningless anyways.
I can't choose more 'tanky' gear for playing a cleave for example or switch to a set that emphasizes haste to accomodate for the more skillful and fast paced playstyle.

In TBC there used to be an enchant called spellsurge that had a 10 mana per sec for 10 sec or something similar so I had a separate weapon with spellsurge and there was an addon that automatically swapped my weapon once per minute or so until I got a proc (iirc it was activated by casting something so it wasn't automonously switching).
In WotLK rogues had 2 offhand weapons with different poison that could be swapped out at will.
The depth and with it the character of WoW pvp doesn't exist anymore.

It's a shallow 'who can spam more damage quicker' race. The thing is even if you play a more skillful comp you'll still lose to those pve teams who just spam damage because the limited amount of abilities and customization of our characters allows for very little sophisticated gameplay.

[Kanariya]

Not at all. The only thing I don't like are template stats being locked. I'd rather them give us the power to decide where we want stats to go for our templates.

[Lightbull]

Dear god, for the last fucking time.... "PvP games" is not a genre.

It doesn't matter. If new players see PvP that looks cool (or are just PvE players that want to try PvP), they will gravitate towards that game regardless of genre. If the PvP can't hold their attention for very long, they won't bother. This is the recent "trend", MMO progression in PvP isn't going to work.

Now.. templates. Dear god, the misinformation. This one isn't directly solely at you, because Blizzard makes the process completely opaque and doesn't document shit... but you're completely wrong in how it works.

Brief tutorial:

I don't want to read a wall of text about why my math is wrong, you're missing the point.

With the previous system, you had to enter PvP at max level with green gear. I don't know the specific math behind this, I don't really care, but fresh max level characters had almost half the health of max gear players, are were likely going to die in 1-2 hits. The gearing process felt a lot slower than it really is because you're hardly PvPing at all to get gear, you're just letting the enemy team demolish you until you can at least stand a chance.

In Legion, again I agree with the artifact traits thing, but assuming both players have the same artifact traits, they aren't too far apart in terms of difference. At least not to the same degree that they were in the past. That poor noob will be able to do something for their team.

No math required here, you can literally feel the difference after playing both xpacs. Stat templates are not the problem here, the only thing that really needs to change in instanced PvP is a way to do minor adjustments to your stats so it doesn't get stale.

With all that said, I can agree that the old gearing system has a place:

Oh, and other thing the Template system absolutely assfucks? World PvP. While wPvP was never super balanced... now it is absolute cancer.

I don't like the current World PvP either. In my opinion, bring back PvP gear so that you can earn it in any form of PvP, same ilvl as PvE gear, but make it better than PvE gear for PvP and keep the stat templates as they are now. Again, assuming Artifacts are gone next xpac, this means you have 0 need to grind just to be able to PvP, and World PvP gear can be balanced.

[Dristereau]

Feels like there's pretty much no sense of progress in terms of gear. The ilvl variety is strange, and the stats mean f-all. Pretty much ilvl over anything else, I know my Resto Druid uses a Feral Trinket in PVP because ilvl. Most of the gear seems useless in PVE, almost every piece I seem to have gotten this Season is versatility.

Also what Kagthul says about gearing/getting ready for PVP is spot on. Instead of it supposedly being easier I don't think it had/has ever been so punishing. Between AP, Gear and Honor Talents it requires a reasonable chunk of time investment to get to a decent level, and if you want full traits then you should delete all your alts and just focus on one right now. I'm not saying it won't get better in time, because AP will become quicker and better levels, but right now the grind is real.

[ilik2345]

For Honor failed for a lot of reasons.. that was the least of them. The incessant PAY PAY PAY PAY REAL MONIES FOR STUFFS ran off more people than anything else.



Dear god, for the last fucking time.... "PvP games" is not a genre.

For Honor is an action/fighting game. LoL is a MOBA. WoW is an MMO. Overwatch is a shooter. Diablo is an Action-RPG.

They aren't the same kind of game at all.

MOBAs are about instant action and tactical gameplay. (Though, ironically, the biggest MOBA out there has a 40+ hour "grind" to viability) Fighting games are about being able to outthink and out play your opponent. Shooters are about (depending on the type) teamwork or twitch shooting skills. MMOs are about progression.

If you dont want to play a game based around progression..

Don't play an MMO, ffs.



Because GW2 has such a successful PvP scene... or is really that succesful at all? (Oh, posting losses and cutting developers... yep, stunning success).



... doesn't take 30 hours to... what? Get enough AP to catch up. Problem is, you cant ever catch up. People that are a billion or so AP ahead of you will remain that way.



Since you seem to have absolutely no idea how they work, im not surprised.



Well go backwards here.

The base iLevel of PvP gear is 860 right now. You -can- get some 870 ("Gladiator") pieces from WQs and rarely from a box in a random BG. Which is totally RNG if you even get a piece of gear, and most times when you do it is 860 "Combatants" gear. You can only get 880 above a certain rating (fairly low, ~1500 IIRC), or from the vendor after obliterating EIGHT pieces of 870 gear.

Now.. templates. Dear god, the misinformation. This one isn't directly solely at you, because Blizzard makes the process completely opaque and doesn't document shit... but you're completely wrong in how it works.

Brief tutorial:

When you enter instanced PvP, your statistics are raised to a certain iLevel floor. This is BEFORE your template is applied. It was 800 at launch, then raised to 850 in 7.1, and 900 in 7.2. What this means is that your base stats (Int, Stam, et al) are factored as if every item in your slots is an iLevel 900 stat-stick.

THEN your Template is applied. This is why, when you see Blizzard's tuning numbers, Templates are expressed in percentages. (ex - "Intellect reduced to 73%") It is setting your base stats, determined when you zoned in at iLevel 900, to that percentage of the base. Stam tends to be over 100%, primary stats are usually severely cut (which in turn reduces AP/SP). The Template also applies a bunch of invisible auras that affect your spells and abilities (self-healing on a lot of abilities is cut by a blanket percentage, tanks take 25% more damage, period, etc)

AFTER your Template is applied, bonus stats from your Artifact Traits (the traits themselves, not merely having them - so a Trait that adds 3% stam, like a Blood Death Knight's "Meat Shield", for instance, applies now are applied, as well as any bonus stats from your Honor Talents.

THEN your bonus stam for traits is applied. The first 34 traits worth of bonus stam and the bonus Stamina (only) from the first skill on your new medallion are now granted gratis - but any traits anyone has above 34 still grant an additional .75% stam that a fresh 110 wont have. (At least up until the first point in Concordance of the Legionfall - Blizzard said there is now a "diminishing return" on stam gains from traits, but it is a solid .75% all the way up to the first point in Concordance, at the very least).

After all this, the bonus % gain from additional iLevels is added. This percentage bonus is calculated from iLevel 800. So, if you have iLevel 890, you have 9% bonus stats. And this is a blanket multiplier to all stats, including Stam.

And this isn't even factoring in the power differential granted by Artifact Traits themselves. A Blood DK, for instance, that has unlocked the new Medallion (Carrion Feast, Vampiric Aura, and Souldrinker) is heads and shoulders more powerful than one who hasn't. You cant even factor this in to some percentage-based evaluation - not that you need to, the raw mix is hard enough.

Too many people make an argument for the current system being better because they assume you already have a main and can push your AK high quick and kind of "catch up" sorta fast.

That's a h uge mistake.

The system needs to be judged from the perspective of someone just coming back to WoW (or just starting heaven forbid), and hitting 110, and seeing this pile of shit they have to wade through to be remotely viable, and saying "fuck it, ill just PvE".

If i was that guy, right now, i wouldn't PvP at all.

Im NOT that guy, and i barely PvP because there's no worthwhile rewards and no progression. The ladder has imploded, and the active competitive environment has stalled and shriveled. Random BG Queues are 3-5x as long as they were just last xpac.

It's real simple:

in WoD, you were 100% PvP-viable with six hours of not-even-PvPing, and could achieve absolute parity by winning 2 random BGs a day. If you came in late or were a fresh starter, the CQ catch up cap let you complete a set of gear in a day or two of "grinding" (if that was your thing).

In Legion, you hit 110 and are:
On average, about 9% behind in gear alone (just the iLevel bonus, as the average iLevel is around 885 right now)
About ~30% behind on stam
About ~30 hours of play (at least) from unlocking absolutely necessary Artifact Traits
About 10-30 hours (depending on what path you take - spamming BGs, Skirms, etc) of play from getting absolutely necessary Honor Talents.
And then, if you "just want to PvP" - your gearing process is a nightmare of RNG drops (RNG if they even happen, and then RNG that you dont get screwed by getting an item you already have) AND you have to be able to get to a high rating (1900+), something only about 14% of the population can even achieve (pyramidal ladder system, yay!) to get gear as good as Normal mode Raids, much less higher level content. And it's all RNG.

There's absolutely no comparison.

WoD's PvP (mechanically) was unbalanced and fairly weak, but they had finally nailed the gearing system 100%, only to throw the baby out with the bathwater and the bathtub right into the chipper shredder.

Oh, and other thing the Template system absolutely assfucks? World PvP. While wPvP was never super balanced... now it is absolute cancer. Because the Templates dont apply (cant have the poor Dragonslayers be out fighting a world boss and have the template kick in, oh noes!) and PvE gear all works - ive literally seen a Rogue one-shot an entire raid fighting a World boss in one global with the legendary cloak.

^^ This.

Best summary of the why the current pvp system is worse then the previous I've read in a while. Unfortunately blizzard was aiming to only fix one thing, make it easier for someone who mainly raids and quests to dabble / jump into to pvp without being disadvantaged, the thinking i believe was they wanted to increase participation numbers.

The thing is the system they made screws over those that actually played pvp (due to indirectly making alts / offspecs hard to gear up) to cater for people that had already made their minds up likely long ago that pvp was not really for them.

[Caolela]

It doesn't matter. If new players see PvP that looks cool (or are just PvE players that want to try PvP), they will gravitate towards that game regardless of genre. If the PvP can't hold their attention for very long, they won't bother. This is the recent "trend", MMO progression in PvP isn't going to work.

I'm sorry to say that you've gotten it completely ass-backwards. It is not players or customers that somehow changed their minds from MoP or WoD to as soon as Legion hit, they suddenly decided they didn't want a progressive MMORPG anymore, that they want a more MOBA- or FPS-type game instead of an RPG. And that doesn't even count the RNG issue.

The fact is that it was Blizzard that spun the hype & lies, and promoted this as Some Great Thing, when there were howls of protest for months from wide swaths of the player base. Just recall how hated the RNG for BiS Accolade trinkets was in WoD, instead of earning them through currency and choosing what you wanted. Which was the start of Blizz getting you acclimated to RNG for the big whammy when Legion came.

Nobody asked for this shit. It was not some sudden "shift" in gaming. It was Blizz creating it and shoving it down our throats, then some lemmings jumping on the Blizz fanwagon tying it coincidentally to some imagined "trend" in gaming. Many of those were people who were simply lazy and didn't like putting in the time & effort that a MMORPG usually requires.

But they soon learned that they merely traded that effort for a brainless grind and equally brainless playstyle (pruning) that's even less enjoyable and less rewarding, but more time-consuming and infinitely boring.

You bought the corporate spin. This is what you get.

[Lightbull]

I'm sorry to say that you've gotten it completely ass-backwards. It is not players or customers that somehow changed their minds from MoP or WoD to as soon as Legion hit, they suddenly decided they didn't want a progressive MMORPG anymore, that they want a more MOBA- or FPS-type game instead of an RPG. And that doesn't even count the RNG issue.

The fact is that it was Blizzard that spun the hype & lies, and promoted this as Some Great Thing, when there were howls of protest for months from wide swaths of the player base. Just recall how hated the RNG for BiS Accolade trinkets was in WoD, instead of earning them through currency and choosing what you wanted. Which was the start of Blizz getting you acclimated to RNG for the big whammy when Legion came.

Nobody asked for this shit. It was not some sudden "shift" in gaming. It was Blizz creating it and shoving it down our throats, then some lemmings jumping on the Blizz fanwagon tying it coincidentally to some imagined "trend" in gaming. Many of those were people who were simply lazy and didn't like putting in the time & effort that a MMORPG usually requires.

But they soon learned that they merely traded that effort for a brainless grind and equally brainless playstyle (pruning) that's even less enjoyable and less rewarding, but more time-consuming and infinitely boring.

You bought the corporate spin. This is what you get.

Take off your tinfoil hat sir.

[Kagthul]

It doesn't matter. If new players see PvP that looks cool (or are just PvE players that want to try PvP), they will gravitate towards that game regardless of genre. If the PvP can't hold their attention for very long, they won't bother. This is the recent "trend", MMO progression in PvP isn't going to work.

Except it isnt. The most popular "PvP" games have "grinds" to be viable that are far longer then WoW. Want to be viable in LoL (literally the most popular "PvP game" on the planet)? Grind up to summoner level 30. And a complete set of level 3 runes for each type of character you want to play. And, in about 20% of cases, a complete set of runes for EACH character, as some require VERY specific setups you cant share with your other characters of the same type. Oh, and a complete set of runes for carries, junglers, mids, and supports that are Energy based, as those are ENTIRELY different.

Easily 60+ hours.

Most popular competitive game in the world.

I don't want to read a wall of text about why my math is wrong,

It's often hard to admit you're wrong.

you're missing the point.

No, i'm not.

With the previous system, you had to enter PvP at max level with green gear.

No, you didn't. If you think you did, then the fault lies with your misunderstanding. You could literally have an entire set of Honor gear that was 10 iLevels below the Conquest gear without ever having to fight another player or even an NPC if you didn't want to.

I don't know the specific math behind this, I don't really care, but fresh max level characters had almost half the health of max gear players, are were likely going to die in 1-2 hits. The gearing process felt a lot slower than it really is because you're hardly PvPing at all to get gear, you're just letting the enemy team demolish you until you can at least stand a chance.

Except this entire premise is completely, utterly wrong. You did NOT have to enter PvP with garbage gear. You CHOSE to enter PvP with garbage gear.

In Legion, again I agree with the artifact traits thing, but assuming both players have the same artifact traits, they aren't too far apart in terms of difference. At least not to the same degree that they were in the past. That poor noob will be able to do something for their team.

If they have the same artifact traits, they aren't a "noob" - theyve got billions of points of AP. WEEKS worth of grinding.

No math required here, you can literally feel the difference after playing both xpacs.

I haven't felt a difference. Gear matters -exactly- as much as it did before. Right down to the percentages.

Where i HAVE felt a difference is trying to PvP on a character who doesn't have the required Honor talents to excel (good luck with Afflock unless you have ALL of them)... or not having max ranks in vital Traits (increased life recovery from drains, Sweet Souls, better shields). Youll fold up faster than 2 dollar bill. Its worse than stepping into PvP in greens in WoD ever was.

Stat templates are not the problem here, the only thing that really needs to change in instanced PvP is a way to do minor adjustments to your stats so it doesn't get stale.

Which would completely undo the entire point of the templates - they exist so Blizzard can supposedly balance everything because they are in control of your stats.

Look at the old gearing system - you effectively had stat templates with minor variations because there were only 2-3 items per slot (sometimes not even that). Your mix of stats could only be so different.

Old system: six hours of not PvPing or even fighting mobs to be completely, 100% ready to go viable.

New system: weeks of grinding RNG gear, Artifact Power, and Honor talents to be viable.

Edit - tell you what -

I've got a Paladin about to hit 110 (been leveling solely through Invasions because i cant be arsed to deal with it).

The day i hit 110, ill jump into a BG and take a screenshot. Ill do the same thing after i swap my gear up Dauntless (will take a few days, probably), and then again when i hit ~880.

Well also see how long that takes. And how long it takes for me to get my Honor talents and my basic set of traits from the day i hit 110 - and this is WITH me being able to outright buy AK 25 right off - something a new 110/returning/new player would NOT be able to do.

[Lightbull]

Except it isnt. The most popular "PvP" games have "grinds" to be viable that are far longer then WoW. Want to be viable in LoL (literally the most popular "PvP game" on the planet)? Grind up to summoner level 30. And a complete set of level 3 runes for each type of character you want to play. And, in about 20% of cases, a complete set of runes for EACH character, as some require VERY specific setups you cant share with your other characters of the same type. Oh, and a complete set of runes for carries, junglers, mids, and supports that are Energy based, as those are ENTIRELY different.

Easily 60+ hours.

Most popular competitive game in the world.

I've accidentally queued with empty mastery pages countless times and I've been fine. I've played Normals at level 30 with a friend well under level 30 and she was fine. You can play the game from level 1-30, and when you first step into Ranked, without any major disadvantage. By then you should have enough IP to buy your runes. LoL has designed their progression system well.

Your next arguments are confusing...

No, you didn't. If you think you did, then the fault lies with your misunderstanding. You could literally have an entire set of Honor gear that was 10 iLevels below the Conquest gear without ever having to fight another player or even an NPC if you didn't want to.

Except this entire premise is completely, utterly wrong. You did NOT have to enter PvP with garbage gear. You CHOSE to enter PvP with garbage gear.

You don't seem to mind that you don't have to PvP to get gear, and you don't seem to mind grinding for it. Why are you complaining about the current system then?

If they have the same artifact traits, they aren't a "noob" - theyve got billions of points of AP. WEEKS worth of grinding.

I think I worded that wrong. I was using that as an example, assuming that artifacts didn't exist and we only had stat templates to control stats in instanced PvP, nothing else. My argument is that stat templates are fine, and artifact traits need to go.

[Snegovik]

To be honest this is the ONE thing I miss about WoD I could have 5 classes to arena with(successfully).

With how important artifact traits are this xpac that's basically impossible for me.

i feel the same, in WOD i would play 1 main, and mess around with 2 alts, now i just stick with 1 char per season (i plaid my main legion s1, in s2 plaid my alt, not continuing with my alt)

[Fkiolaris]

I miss currencies in both PvP and PvE for the simple reason that it allowed me for targeted character customisation and progression. That is one big thing that I feel is completely missing in Legion and quite honestly it has made the game very tiring. In regards to pvp in specific, as it has been mentioned a million times, in WoD they had nailed the system 100%, but they fucked it up because they released 3 seasons and 2 tiers, so the last season's PvP gear was good enough to let you skip a big chunk of the latest pve content. Personally, I didn't see it as problem, but more as the customary "nerf of the final major patch before the next expansion", but whatever. Mechanically though it was as good as they ever got the pvp-gearing and progression to be AND it was actually good.

Now it's all RNG shite, no sense of progression unless you are at the top X-percent in the arena ladder and the worst class-design across the board I can remember.

[Caolela]

Take off your tinfoil hat sir.

Take off your blinders and coincidence theorizing.

If you can show that anything I said there is untrue, do so. Are you saying that Blizz didn't create the mess we currently have now? Maybe it was all just coincidence?

Or that for months prior, Legion wasn't spun and hyped as some great improvement over what existed, when some of us here (and many elsewhere) predicted it would be a disaster? Was there any huge trend that showed people did not still want to play an MMORPG, separate and apart from Blizzard pushing WoW in a direction that would cause just such a thing? I don't recall people leaving WoW PvP in droves as much before WoD's Ashran, then the exodus got far worse in Legion.

It also wasn't mere coincidence that Overwatch was ready around the time Legion's terrible PvP design was put in, making it easy for WoW PvPers to jump to OW for their PvP fix.

Ladder collapse. It's a thing now in case you hadn't noticed. It's because Blizz fucked PvP with templates, RNG, and pruning, AND continued imbalance - not because rated and casual players suddenly rejected WoW being a progression RPG with the Honor/Conquest system.

The vast majority of people who left PvP did so because they hated Legion's system more than any other single reason.

Casting aspersions with childish memes and no defensible argument is easy, but it's a cop-out.