Are rogues under performing right now?

[Deleted]

That should make T20 boni more appealing, now doesnt it ? ><

I'm afraid it's supposed to make 2pc + 4pc mixed T19 and T20 less appealing. It's a bit sad to see how much they fucked up fitting tier sets into the whole gearing concept this expac...

[Marrilaife]

Its possible but u need a lot of luck, everything to be stacked and specific gearing to do it. A fire mage will do it with 90% of less trying. And this is the problem that are ignoring on purpose.

Classes with nice st, good cleave and god mode aoe. While we are stuck on nice st, meh cleave and non existance aoe to god mode aoe which we have no control over it. The problem is not if we do 15 million dps aoe or zero. The problem is the control of it.

Fire mage doesn't have "nice st" anymore, all raiding mages are frost atm or at least vast majority of them. Same with ele shaman and few other classes with good aoe, their st is underwhelming.

But I don't disagree for m+ specifically some specs are just better. Like havoc. And some are not really favoured like assa / feral / shadow. At least rogues bring the aoe stealth so you can skip some mobs without locking your dps pot for 10min.

And fire mage is the new huntard, with the leggie helmet and something like 50yd dragon's breath it's the new "barrage" namely bane of your existence if you want to skip or cc mobs.

[iky43210]

rogue is amazing for m+ if you have the shoulder and cloak. like your shoulder uptime is insane and plenty of opportunity to vanish when you get a poison bomb proc

[Faildevil]

I was able to do about 950k DPS overall in my best runs, depens heavyly on the chosen instance.
But fire mages, affli locks, boomkins and DHs (and many more classes) with suited legendarys can do that easily.

[Deleted]

(sub) shoulder + back legendary + dfa offers great overall damage in m+.

and no logs are only one messurement tool that is only usfull if you know how to use it.
making conclusions about spec performance from 70%tile overall data is wrong use.

[Hashcrypt]

Rogues have been replaced by DH as the go to leather melee dps. Sad, but true.

[iky43210]

I was able to do about 950k DPS overall in my best runs, depens heavyly on the chosen instance.
But fire mages, affli locks, boomkins and DHs (and many more classes) with suited legendarys can do that easily.

not saying we're the best, but we're by far not the worst.

I usually do at minimum 1m+ overall in about every instance above 12. 1.2-1.3m on good procs timing

[Master Guns]

I know sub rogues are shit unless they have mantle. Mantle is going to be nerfed to the ground in 7.2.5 (no more sprint granting stealth) but after what? How will you compensate the sub rogues who had a miserable raiding experience for a whole tier because they didn't have mantle?

Shoulda went sin'.

[Deleted]

Well, from playing in a 99th percentile environment on every single boss in the game, I can tell you, that I can't compete with most other melees; only on the long ST fights, and I'm *competing* with a DH, that completely destroys me on a slight cleave fight.
Ok, game. Ok.

[Deleted]

It doesn't help directly with rolls, but you can get A LOT of free saber slashes(like it does procc very often), which translates to more free energy and more finishing moves, which also means that you are a bit less dependent on what you roll(it might seem minimal at first, but from my own playing experience, it make a noticeable difference)

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Well, the chance of getting TB is a lot higher due to this. The point is that since I've gotten this trait I've actually stopped having a big variance in dps(on boss fights). Also overall, my DPS has gained a big boost actually, as I've rarely had a situation in any encounter where I lacked both energy and good rolls(like in EN I had situations where I needed to fish, but also lacked energy, which made my gameplay really slow. The loaded dice buff on the other hand lasts for 45sec, which means that I often have the situation where I get AR, but haven't even used up the loaded dice buff).

On short fights, you don't fish for good rolls anyways, so even there you get a huge dps boost due to guaranteed 2 buffs(and on short fights TB isn't too useful anyways).

Overall, since this patch Outlaw DPS has improved a lot and is practically better (from my experience with playing assa myself and against other rogues) than assassination in ST fights and in AOE fights (this one anyways). The only time where assa rogues get a big dps boost is when they poison bomb, but this doesn't procc often from my experience. That being said, I haven't seen a sub rogue in NH so far, only assa rogues actually (rogues in general are kinda rare).

Sub is boring, even tho is scales very well with gear i personally think most players stick to either assa or outlaw rogue. Wod -> Legion sub rogue is one of the worst things i have seen to happen to a class in this game. I don't know if sub does really good dps, but i would never touch it as it is in legion (changes in 7.2.5 might fix it we will see).

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Fire mage doesn't have "nice st" anymore, all raiding mages are frost atm or at least vast majority of them. Same with ele shaman and few other classes with good aoe, their st is underwhelming.

But I don't disagree for m+ specifically some specs are just better. Like havoc. And some are not really favoured like assa / feral / shadow. At least rogues bring the aoe stealth so you can skip some mobs without locking your dps pot for 10min.

And fire mage is the new huntard, with the leggie helmet and something like 50yd dragon's breath it's the new "barrage" namely bane of your existence if you want to skip or cc mobs.

the aoe stealth is so weird imo, the fucking trash still notices the players because its basically a worse version of stealth.

[Demyelinated]

that's becauase we were OP in 7.1.5

in 7.2 we're really mediocre

of course our survival is still excellent(which is why we're taken to every fight, to cheese mechanics) but our damage is lacking even in pure ST (where we used to be kings, now at least 4-5 classes outperform us)

Ass Rogues are #2 in boss damage in Mythic NH at the 75th percentile. #3 if you jack it up to 90th, and at that point #1 and #2 are both Warlocks.

[shaunika123]

Ass Rogues are #2 in boss damage in Mythic NH at the 75th percentile. #3 if you jack it up to 90th, and at that point #1 and #2 are both Warlocks.

there isnt a single assa rogue in any of the top 100 logs for any of the single target fights except for one single assa rogue on krosus

[Deleted]

You can cry all you want, but pretty much every top guild is running dual rogues. Pretty much tells the story for you.

Only reason I abandoned my rogue was how boring the playstyle was, not the damage itself.

[Marrilaife]

there isnt a single assa rogue in any of the top 100 logs for any of the single target fights except for one single assa rogue on krosus

Top 100 logs are often based on setup, or luck, not something you should judge by when deciding which classes are most useful to your raid comp.

[shaunika123]

Top 100 logs are often based on setup, or luck, not something you should judge by when deciding which classes are most useful to your raid comp.

here's the thing, stuff under is mostly just "well the frostmages/afflocks were doing mechanics and the assa rogue was training the boss cos they do that from 0 to 100% on most fights"

also "luck" would affect assa rogues way more than frost mages for example, since we have much more RNG in our rotation

under "fair" circumstances (IE both of us can just do damage as we want) assa wil lose to frost mages, affli locks, DHs, and probably even fury warriors on most occasions, and all of those classes will just shit on us in AOE situations

I'm not denying the class's usefulness, but it's not our damage anymore, it's our survivability.
if you want damage rogue isnt the first thing that comes to anyone's mind

[Cyanix]

Well, from playing in a 99th percentile environment on every single boss in the game, I can tell you, that I can't compete with most other melees; only on the long ST fights, and I'm *competing* with a DH, that completely destroys me on a slight cleave fight.
Ok, game. Ok.

This.
The feeling when you score a 95-99% rank and you're still far behind the other classes.

You really have to outplay everybody else to earn your raid spot, or provide decent enough utility on *most* fights, which is not the case currently.

I'm not denying the class's usefulness, but it's not our damage anymore, it's our survivability.
if you want damage rogue isnt the first thing that comes to anyone's mind

And that's a pity for a so called "dps class".

That's why rogue were good on progression fights. Now that everyone has learned the mechanics, we serve no purpose anymore.

[Maquegyver]

there isnt a single assa rogue in any of the top 100 logs for any of the single target fights except for one single assa rogue on krosus

Looking at top 100 as if that is a reliable indicator of anything but cheese dps... My class isn't in top 100 buff me... What bunk.

If blizzard makes any balancing decisions based on top 100 logs of a fight they need to fire their entire balancing team. Top 100 is usually reserved for absurdly OP or mechanic abuse.

[Riverr]

I concur with the feeling of hitting a ceiling on speed runs. Sin rogues were great on the longer fights during prog but with kill times being reduced and mechanics becoming trivial, its hard to keep up with other classes. A core way our DPS held up during prog was the ability to maintain dps during mechanics or to simply use our abilities to ignore mechanics entirely, but now with moving towards speed kills, its quite rough. It could also be that other classes just received bigger bonuses from their 7.2 traits.

Its not a big deal since its mostly farm, its just a bit meh if you run with a high purple/orange parsing crowd (on mythic).

[RobertoCarlos]

Can this thread just die please, its really annoying seeing it get bumped. Its pure nonsense. Rogues are not under performing, end of. I don't care if you got beat by a DH on a cleave fight that doesn't mean you are shit. I'll still be playing rogue in Tomb and I am in no fear of being benched. If you are in fear of being benched its more likely a skill or commitment issue than a class issue.

If you aren't getting invited to raids or groups its probably an item level or lack of achievement issue.

[Cyanix]

Can this thread just die please, its really annoying seeing it get bumped. Its pure nonsense. Rogues are not under performing, end of. I don't care if you got beat by a DH on a cleave fight that doesn't mean you are shit. I'll still be playing rogue in Tomb and I am in no fear of being benched. If you are in fear of being benched its more likely a skill or commitment issue than a class issue.

If you aren't getting invited to raids or groups its probably an item level or lack of achievement issue.

We're talking HL PvE and progression raiding, not pickup group and "link curve" bullshit.

There are logs to back up our claims so if you enjoy playing in a PU environment, feel free to ignore this thread.