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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    Hey guys,

    This is a question for PTR people(or people who have been reading up on mechanics):

    NH was a melee raid. How is ToS going to be?

    What do you expect?
    It will be, like always, a <FOTM massively OP class> raid. Like, EN was S.Priest realm, EN was Ret/DH at the beginning to switch to Frost/Affly.

    Let me put this way: if the only specs available were to be UDH,WWmonk, Destro and Ele , NH would be the "whatever" raid.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    shows how little you know
    Shows how little you know.

    on trilliax, melee have to eat cakes even if it means running across the room and not surprisingly the more melee you have, the more of them will have to do it, which is argument itself for bringing balanced team instead of full melee
    Theres like 2 minutes and an Annihilation Phase between Cakes and Scrubbers where the boss, at least in early progression days, was constantly moved around the room. Melees never had to go out of their way to soak cakes, eventually the boss would pre moved to a position with cakes and melees were good. If your melees had to run across the whole room while your Mages/Hunters/Druids sidestepped to eat the cakes in boss range, that's your teams fuckup.

    krosus, again, melee have to go out of melee range and soak, too, as the close soaks arent the issue, ever, its the far ones that cause wipes. and again, the more melee you have, the more of them will have to run back, again an argument why rather have balanced team instead of melee heavy (also unfair boss, who for some reason doesnt have miss chance on autoattacks and doesnt represent actual dps numbers of half of melee specs anyway)
    We firstkilled Krosus with 7 melees and 8 ranges. We had 1 melee leaver boss range for soak 1: Our fury warrior, so he could pull like 5 bajillion add dps on his way back to the boss where most ranges couldn't even get a single cast off.

    alluriel - melee dont do from marks because its tremendous dps loss to stand there out of range for such a long time, but they do have to play fire and are more punished the copys whirwind if not tanked properly. and frost marks are by themselves the reason, why you cant really bring heavy melee team again
    You can bring a full melee setup for this boss with ease. You need exactly 8 people to handle frost marks - 4-5 healers and 3-4 ranges, you can easily run 10 melees here. The mechanics they have to play here is 'kill the adds'.

    ticondrius - yeah, melee dont have to do much, but neither do ranged, you literally do the same thing as melee - tunnel the boss, switch adds and move behind the tank for the normal phase and only difference is being careful not blowing up the brands in bat phase. but yeah, this is the boss, where you can do with with very little ranged, so ill give you that
    In progression, you rarely had melees dealing with the adds. There was the occasional fury warrior going ham, and a bit more frequently a WW monk dealing with them. But that's about it. Melees never moved away from the boss here because back then it was a dps check and you just couldn't afford to do so. This boss favored melees so heavily that guilds originally brought like 10 melees because they couldn't be affected by Brands.

    botanist, melee have to play most mechanics just as ranged, you dont send them on orbs because again, its way too big dps loss and call of the night doesnt target them for the same reason as frost marks, way too big dps loss and would make melee massive hindrance on such fight, where they cant dps for SIGNIFICANT parts of the fight, unless it never targeted two melee at once, in which case you would be like "lol melee dont have to play the mechanic anyway, since theyre already stacked"
    That's not playing the mechanics. Oh, poor melees can't play mechanics because it's a dps loss for them? What a tragedy. Botanist is another case of bring enough ranges to handle the mechanics, fill up with melees.

    and yeah, guldan p1 is pain for ranged, but melee are more punished by bonds in p1, flames/winds in p2 and ranged can just ignore parasites in p3 while melee have to do the legwork there to offset seeds
    Ranges are just as punished by bonds as melees. You don't damage the boss while bonds are up. You might throw out the occasional Scorch, or refresh your dots, but while bonds are up you're constantly moving. With the ridiculous mobility pretty much every melee has these days, they lose just as much uptime on the boss as most ranges. Same with flames and winds in P2 - most ranges do jackshit while moving, and once those mechanics are actually over, melees are back on the boss again before the first Solar Wrath hits. Parasites in P3 are the only melee-only mechanic in this tier (and luckily this melee only mechanics comes with a ~5s stun on random range players ).

    DPS checks and enrage timers were way too hard in early NH. You had to bring melee-heavy setups because melees never had to do a thing but tunneling the boss with their superior damage.

    There's a middle way between melees having to be constantly out of boss range due to mechanics.... and melees having 99% uptime on 9 out of 10 bosses. The first makes you want to bring no melees at all, while the last makes you want to stack as many melees as possible, effectively switching places with ranges. A balance is needed, not from a boss to boss pov, but on every single boss instead.

  3. #163
    Were people complaining that melee was too hard or something? I always enjoyed playing melee because it was more of an active playstyle in years past.

    But EN and NH are so boring for melee. The bosses feel like loot pinatas for a majority of the fight.

    I've been playing my ele shaman as of late and I enjoy NH so much more
    The proper waifu is a wholesome supplement for one's intrinsic need for belonging and purpose.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogalicus View Post
    That's the thing everyone keeps forgetting. Melee damage is tuned with some downtimes in mind, but there's no downtime.
    This is the big thing and even in PVP it's intended and yet most melee seem to think they need 100% uptime in both PVE and PVP with their "Wahhhh I need 11 gap closers!"

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post
    Shows how little you know.



    Theres like 2 minutes and an Annihilation Phase between Cakes and Scrubbers where the boss, at least in early progression days, was constantly moved around the room. Melees never had to go out of their way to soak cakes, eventually the boss would pre moved to a position with cakes and melees were good. If your melees had to run across the whole room while your Mages/Hunters/Druids sidestepped to eat the cakes in boss range, that's your teams fuckup.



    We firstkilled Krosus with 7 melees and 8 ranges. We had 1 melee leaver boss range for soak 1: Our fury warrior, so he could pull like 5 bajillion add dps on his way back to the boss where most ranges couldn't even get a single cast off.



    You can bring a full melee setup for this boss with ease. You need exactly 8 people to handle frost marks - 4-5 healers and 3-4 ranges, you can easily run 10 melees here. The mechanics they have to play here is 'kill the adds'.



    In progression, you rarely had melees dealing with the adds. There was the occasional fury warrior going ham, and a bit more frequently a WW monk dealing with them. But that's about it. Melees never moved away from the boss here because back then it was a dps check and you just couldn't afford to do so. This boss favored melees so heavily that guilds originally brought like 10 melees because they couldn't be affected by Brands.



    That's not playing the mechanics. Oh, poor melees can't play mechanics because it's a dps loss for them? What a tragedy. Botanist is another case of bring enough ranges to handle the mechanics, fill up with melees.



    Ranges are just as punished by bonds as melees. You don't damage the boss while bonds are up. You might throw out the occasional Scorch, or refresh your dots, but while bonds are up you're constantly moving. With the ridiculous mobility pretty much every melee has these days, they lose just as much uptime on the boss as most ranges. Same with flames and winds in P2 - most ranges do jackshit while moving, and once those mechanics are actually over, melees are back on the boss again before the first Solar Wrath hits. Parasites in P3 are the only melee-only mechanic in this tier (and luckily this melee only mechanics comes with a ~5s stun on random range players ).

    DPS checks and enrage timers were way too hard in early NH. You had to bring melee-heavy setups because melees never had to do a thing but tunneling the boss with their superior damage.

    There's a middle way between melees having to be constantly out of boss range due to mechanics.... and melees having 99% uptime on 9 out of 10 bosses. The first makes you want to bring no melees at all, while the last makes you want to stack as many melees as possible, effectively switching places with ranges. A balance is needed, not from a boss to boss pov, but on every single boss instead.
    you dont kite trilliax across the whole room, you never did and there arent enough cakes near boss for every single melee, especially if you bring more of them, its simple "dont bring way more melee" ...
    alluriel, yeah, sure, risk not having a single backup for marks makes sense. not. and yes, melee have to be way more careful with flame and are your primary interrupters, not sure why alluriel even gets a mention about somehow being heavy melee favored
    krosus, so you bring BALANCED team, with more ranged than melee... and your problem is what, exactly?? and if your ranged can handle adds just fine, why are you crying about it? our ranged couldnt handle them, so we sent plenty of melee soak out of range, try not sending your melee there if you run like 10 of them, its simply another "dont bring way more melee"
    tich... like seriously, you contradict yourself in 20 seconds. first, you say guilds bring tons of melee, then you say melee dont switch, but the truth is, not every ranged is good enough for cleave and yes, we had melee swap to adds. and again, the freaking ranged dont have to do almost anything EITHER. they stand spread out and tunnel, too, without the need to run when the adds come and they dont have downtime during pillars, the only difference is they have to be careful with brands in bat phase, thats twice per fight, wow!
    botanist - apparently, you dont realize call of night are pretty damn long, you thing it would be fun to have melee sit for 20+ seconds out of boss range? and sure, melee dont switch adds, then again, ranged have way easier time with other mechanics or are you going to pretend like solars are easier as melee, when you get half of them centered on you and you need to keep uptime on boss, than on ranged, who usually have to dodge like 1-2 per fight?
    guldan - and here we go, i was waiting when the "ranged dont do dmg while moving" comes up. for your ranged, that are so godly they can handle all adds without the help of melee and still have time to whine about melee, they are sure inept when it comes to movement... oh wait, its not like most of them dont have their own tools like blinks, disengage or ports, same with winds, if they position themselves properly, they dont even have to run against the winds (expect the first one) almost at all and they sure as hell do more damage with flames than melee, that have to gtfo immediately and cant attack at all.

    downplaying stuff like that is precisely why none if these "but ranged have it so hard in NH" posts can be taken seriously, because when ranged have to do mechanic and lose more dps than melee, its "poor ranged, so bullied" but when its melee in their place, its "so what? unlimited mobility and 50% more deeps than ranged" ....

  6. #166
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Not in 7.2.5, Chaos bolt no longer cleaves, good by sweet cleave prince.
    How about no.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasparde View Post

    There's a middle way between melees having to be constantly out of boss range due to mechanics.... and melees having 99% uptime on 9 out of 10 bosses. The first makes you want to bring no melees at all, while the last makes you want to stack as many melees as possible, effectively switching places with ranges. A balance is needed, not from a boss to boss pov, but on every single boss instead.
    yea, you'll see that middle-ground once you go through 6 expansions of "sit as many ranged as you can"

    Enjoy
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  8. #168
    I hope its fairly balanced

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    I expect nothing more than nh 2.0 where melee sit on target dummy doing 2M dps while afking and ranged have to deal with all shitty mechanics
    Pretty much this. NH has entirely screwed up our healthy roster.

    We traditionally brought like 10 ranged/4 melee to our raids and made sure to have a team of roughly 20 dps (14 ranged/6 melee). Obviously sometimes bringing 6 melee if the encounter allowed it.

    But NH forced us to recruit a lot more melee. Result is that we now have quite a larger roster for dps of roughly 28 (about 14 melee, 14 ranged).

    Only one encounter in NH actually forced melee to do mechanics (together with ranged) which is Star Augur.
    The rest was just mindless tunnelvision on the boss.

  10. #170
    Ranged dps will still be coveted. Even though some bosses benefit melee heavy, as we've seen from NH, you're going to get smacked down by some bosses if you don't have enough ranged, like Botanist, Spellblade, and Augur.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestraza View Post
    Pretty much this. NH has entirely screwed up our healthy roster.

    We traditionally brought like 10 ranged/4 melee to our raids and made sure to have a team of roughly 20 dps (14 ranged/6 melee). Obviously sometimes bringing 6 melee if the encounter allowed it.

    But NH forced us to recruit a lot more melee. Result is that we now have quite a larger roster for dps of roughly 28 (about 14 melee, 14 ranged).

    Only one encounter in NH actually forced melee to do mechanics (together with ranged) which is Star Augur.
    The rest was just mindless tunnelvision on the boss.
    Uhhmm, as a rogue, i would have to whole heartily disagree, I soaked on Tich, did about half the mechanics on Guldan, Star Augur obviously, escorted on Bot. Warriors however = Potatoes

  12. #172
    From the looks of it ToS will be less melee-friendly, more mechanics target melee and more is required of them. Albeit that's only from a cursory look at Fatboss's videos.

    Also lol @ all the ones salty that there's one melee-friendly raid after so many years of raid teams benching as many non-Rogue melees as they possibly could. I remember BRF quite vividly, so ranged DPS having to do a couple more mechanics will not move me to tears, I assure you.

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