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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    First of all I wouldn't compare melee class to ranged class or at least not to casters (even to fast casting ones like frost mages). DHs are special case too, because they're basically "press a glowing button - deal 2 million dps", a ~heroic class~ indeed.

    And I already said that amount of buttons involved in the rotation does not equal to its complexity. For example feral druids have only 4 skills (and overall even more than WW) you need to manage (read: manage, not press whenever) Savage Roar (buff), Rake, Rip and Moonfire and unlike monks you actually care about your "combo points" and energy and not see them as something like rage pulling.
    Arms warriors are different kind of "hard" spec to manage. Even for non-perfect play you need AT LEAST 90+ effective APM which is actually double of WW. It's not the hardest rotation around mechanic-wise, but it's damn tight and very unforgiving for mistakes. And no, it's not a mindless buttonsmashing, you actually need to manage your Battle Cry rage bursts and balance rage with Focus Rage.
    The only reason Arms can go above 60 APM is because the FR build has core abilities off the GCD though. Is that complexity? Is it carpal tunnel? Whatever you want to call it really. We've already established this is just some touchy-feely qualified statement.

    Off the top of my head though, here are all the abilities I have bound in some form. Many of these are also bound more than once to assist in targeting in pvp.

    Tiger palm
    Blackout Kick
    Rising Sun kick
    Fists of Fury
    Spinning Crane kick
    Whirling Dragon punch
    SEF
    Flying Serpent kick
    Disable
    Effuse
    Chi Wave
    Tiger's Lust
    Energizing Elixir
    Leg Sweep
    Healing Elixir
    Detox
    Touch of Death
    Touch of Karma
    Spear Hand Strike
    Strike of the Windlord
    Roll
    Paralysis
    Crackline Jade Lightning
    Transcendence
    Transcendence Transfer

    I've left out Xuen because he's pretty optional but I would judge you for not taking tiger's lust and chi wave. I also bind resuscitate because it's won me arena games. I doubt most people do though.

    All of these abilities have a use. Most of them more than one use. It's a utility loaded class and because there is so much spread across so many abilities, from a design standpoint you cannot adjust many skills without either making them obsolete or overpowered. That is a *bad* place to be in as a game developer.

    Because monks *have* the ability to detox and to run away and use effuse 4-5 times, everything else in the kit has to suffer. Effuse cannot be strong because it uses energy and in 5 seconds you can run away and spam it 4 more times. This means each effuse has to be weak, and a player experiences this feeling starved when you resort to effusing. But you have it in your kit and if you don't then you're playing sub-optimally.

    Monk abilities therefore cannot have too much baked in healing or dispels because then they have too much utility with detox and effuse already existing. If we keep touch of karma, giving us more DR cooldowns would be too strong. If tiger's lust removes snares, having roll remove snares too is too strong. But how do you touch abilities like detox, ToK, paralysis or roll without destroying them? The abilities themselves are very binary utility.

    Again, a bad point to be in from a game development standpoint because if you were to nerf paralysis to not work on targets that are casting, it becomes a shit tier CC on a cooldown, but at least WW lose an interrupt. If you were to make disable only root slowed targets, the ability itself becomes too niche. If you combine transcendence the player loses utility.

    These are just hypothetical changes that I'm hoping illustrate my point that we have a ton of utility spread across many abilities. The bloat from this and the fragility of all these abilities makes the class feel bad to play. Why should I bother rolling and pressing disable to gap clear (while dealing next to no damage) when a warrior pressed charge and already began mashing face? The clear reason why is that my abilities are more versatile. Windwalker suffers for that versatility when the new game paradigm is boiling down classes into MOBA characters.

  2. #42
    The class is fun (all 3 specs), but Blizzard hates it, so it's constantly getting nerfed and getting hate upon, so I wouldn't recommend it.

  3. #43
    Main spec'd a BM since Mists but with Legion I went DH . Now that I am kind of in a just log in to raid like you I recently picked my monk up and I have been playing him as WW. I forgot how much fun and light hearted their story line in especially in comparison to DH story campaign.. I would sya do it, you will really enjoy it I think!

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    First of all I wouldn't compare melee class to ranged class or at least not to casters (even to fast casting ones like frost mages). DHs are special case too, because they're basically "press a glowing button - deal 2 million dps", a ~heroic class~ indeed.

    And I already said that amount of buttons involved in the rotation does not equal to its complexity. For example feral druids have only 4 skills (and overall even more than WW) you need to manage (read: manage, not press whenever) Savage Roar (buff), Rake, Rip and Moonfire and unlike monks you actually care about your "combo points" and energy and not see them as something like rage pulling.
    Arms warriors are different kind of "hard" spec to manage. Even for non-perfect play you need AT LEAST 90+ effective APM which is actually double of WW. It's not the hardest rotation around mechanic-wise, but it's damn tight and very unforgiving for mistakes. And no, it's not a mindless buttonsmashing, you actually need to manage your Battle Cry rage bursts and balance rage with Focus Rage.
    The only reason Arms can go above 60 APM is because the FR build has core abilities off the GCD though. Is that complexity? Is it carpal tunnel? Whatever you want to call it really. We've already established this is just some touchy-feely qualified statement.

    Off the top of my head though, here are all the abilities I have bound in some form. Many of these are also bound more than once to assist in targeting in pvp.

    Tiger palm
    Blackout Kick
    Rising Sun kick
    Fists of Fury
    Spinning Crane kick
    Whirling Dragon punch
    SEF
    Flying Serpent kick
    Disable
    Effuse
    Chi Wave
    Tiger's Lust
    Energizing Elixir
    Leg Sweep
    Healing Elixir
    Detox
    Touch of Death
    Touch of Karma
    Spear Hand Strike
    Strike of the Windlord
    Roll
    Paralysis
    Crackline Jade Lightning
    Transcendence
    Transcendence Transfer

    I've left out Xuen because he's pretty optional but I would judge you for not taking tiger's lust and chi wave. I also bind resuscitate because it's won me arena games. I doubt most people do though.

    All of these abilities have a use. Most of them more than one use. It's a utility loaded class and because there is so much spread across so many abilities, from a design standpoint you cannot adjust many skills without either making them obsolete or overpowered. That is a *bad* place to be in as a game developer.

    Because monks *have* the ability to detox and to run away and use effuse 4-5 times, everything else in the kit has to suffer. Effuse cannot be strong because it uses energy and in 5 seconds you can run away and spam it 4 more times. This means each effuse has to be weak, and a player experiences this feeling starved when you resort to effusing. But you have it in your kit and if you don't then you're playing sub-optimally.

    Monk abilities therefore cannot have too much baked in healing or dispels because then they have too much utility with detox and effuse already existing. If we keep touch of karma, giving us more DR cooldowns would be too strong. If tiger's lust removes snares, having roll remove snares too is too strong. But how do you touch abilities like detox, ToK, paralysis or roll without destroying them? The abilities themselves are very binary utility.

    Again, a bad point to be in from a game development standpoint because if you were to nerf paralysis to not work on targets that are casting, it becomes a shit tier CC on a cooldown, but at least WW lose an interrupt. If you were to make disable only root slowed targets, the ability itself becomes too niche. If you combine transcendence the player loses utility.

    These are just hypothetical changes that I'm hoping illustrate my point that we have a ton of utility spread across many abilities. The bloat from this and the fragility of all these abilities makes the class feel bad to play. Why should I bother rolling and pressing disable to gap clear (while dealing next to no damage) when a warrior pressed charge and already began mashing face? The clear reason why is that my abilities are more versatile. Windwalker suffers for that versatility when the new game paradigm is boiling down classes into MOBA characters.


    Feral is a good example of this same situation. Because they can root, heal, knockback, stun etc. across so many abilities the spec suffers in a lot of situations where these skills aren't needed. The whole kit is balanced around all their potential utility and when that toolkit doesn't apply to the encounter, the spec feels weak.

  5. #45
    I like the part where monks whine about lots of utility options and warriors whine about having none.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    Not even surprised, how much time the casual trash group spends on thier class(and in general), before they think they understand every aspect of the game(remembering the Blue reponse always makes me smile).

    Can you count?

    RSK
    SCK
    CJL
    MotC
    SotW or SotWL
    EE
    WDP
    CW
    CB
    ToD
    FoF
    RJW

    12 ABILITIES YOU ACTIVELY HAVE TO MANAGE(you can take 1 max 2 out from talents and go with passives, still 10). This is just for the rotation(you still have 3-4 different abilities with direct impact on your mobility, which is the strength of WW, 1 CC and 1 stun from talent).

    You have to deal perfectly with every situation, using ATLEAST 18 different abilities.

    =

    No, its just not RISING SUNRISE ON CD. Mastering WW is mastering every fucking class in game. Im not saying its hard, but out of all the DPS specs, this one is the hardest.

    Now, you talk about survival hunters(and base your arguments with "OH".. "But SV is more GCD sensetive)... As if SV is the only class depending on GCD.

    Show me facts or fuck off.
    RSK: on cooldown, braindead
    SCK: secondary AoE when FoF and WDP are on cooldown, nothing special here
    CJL: lol get the fuck out, pleb
    MotC: I guess you can think tab targetting to apply the debuff is complicated, then nobody is good enough on this planet to touch a shadow priest.
    SotWL: on cooldown, literally
    EE: use on cooldown after spending your ressources, I guess we have an extra step of impossible perfection to reach here
    WDP: after FoF, always, braindead
    CW or CB: it's one of the other, did you just get a list of all possible monk skill without thinking? Either way that's basically on CD as well, I guess you can be fancy and use it between 2 BK or TP (both of which you forgot to list, I don't know why, they are actually harder to use then RSK or SotWL cuz you run the risk of fucking up hit combo)
    ToD: the one touchy thing, prepare your shit to use the trait as efficiently as possible, let's celebrate for the first skill in the list with an actual level of difficulty
    FoF: basically on cooldown unless some fight offer specific moments of aoe worth holding on to it for a few seconds like tichondrius blob shits.
    RJW: THE VERY CORE OF MONK'S ROTATION, come on man, nobody really plays with that besides some sketchy niche encounters where the normal setup works just as good.
    ToK: your forgot this but it's used just as often as ToD but that only requires knowing the encounters, not the class.

    Basically nothing really stressful or even requiring much thought process or planning besides the ToD combo, which isn't that big of a deal cuz it's still gonna hit hard if you fuck up like one skill (if you fuck up more then you'd fuck up anything else on any other class anyways) and the cooldown is so long it's not part of the basic rotation, therefore not all that punishing, misusing Frost Breath on Frost DK has a bigger impact than this. You can argue this, I don't care, you would be wrong.

    Mastering WW is nowhere near mastering every class, I don't even know why you would think that, just like I don't know why you're taking this so personal, you didn't design WW to be this easy to play so this isn't on you, relax.

    You haven't played survival, I suggest you go do that. (how do I know? Cuz if you did you wouldn't be arguing this, you would be agreeing. Also I didn't mean that it was hard because it's GCD sensitive, I meant that using the RIGHT thing on every GCD matters more than on WW which has a lot of dead time in its rotation, which gives time to think and is less punitive)

    Facts like what? I'm the fact. I play both and told you what things are. You're simply offended cuz you thought you were a good player playing a "hard" class on WoW and I put you back in your baby seat. Reality check, it shouldn't hurt, it should be an opportunity to learn and grow.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Swalload View Post
    MotC: I guess you can think tab targetting to apply the debuff is complicated, then nobody is good enough on this planet to touch a shadow priest.
    I think you meant feral druid for the same thing, but in melee clusterfuck.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    FUN for me(only talking about WW):

    Complex class to prove that im capable of pulling it off and smirk on easy class players.

    WW/DPS is the hardest to play, the most complex, and as for now, the developers least fav(even thou everything works, the numbers are lower than it should be) - everything is "agaisnt" the WW - unless you see it from a another perspective, then its gets really reaaally fun.

    And if you master the monk, you master everything else. In some cases, its litteraly feels like going back from uni to the elementary school.
    I feel like people that say this only have keeping an eye on CDs on their mind. Ass Rogue hits about...... 5 buttons? But because of buffs and procs is harder to play optimally than WW. True story from 900+ 95+ percentile P.O.V.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swalload View Post
    RSK: on cooldown, braindead
    SCK: secondary AoE when FoF and WDP are on cooldown, nothing special here
    CJL: lol get the fuck out, pleb
    MotC: I guess you can think tab targetting to apply the debuff is complicated, then nobody is good enough on this planet to touch a shadow priest.
    SotWL: on cooldown, literally
    EE: use on cooldown after spending your ressources, I guess we have an extra step of impossible perfection to reach here
    WDP: after FoF, always, braindead
    CW or CB: it's one of the other, did you just get a list of all possible monk skill without thinking? Either way that's basically on CD as well, I guess you can be fancy and use it between 2 BK or TP (both of which you forgot to list, I don't know why, they are actually harder to use then RSK or SotWL cuz you run the risk of fucking up hit combo)
    ToD: the one touchy thing, prepare your shit to use the trait as efficiently as possible, let's celebrate for the first skill in the list with an actual level of difficulty
    FoF: basically on cooldown unless some fight offer specific moments of aoe worth holding on to it for a few seconds like tichondrius blob shits.
    RJW: THE VERY CORE OF MONK'S ROTATION, come on man, nobody really plays with that besides some sketchy niche encounters where the normal setup works just as good.
    ToK: your forgot this but it's used just as often as ToD but that only requires knowing the encounters, not the class.

    Basically nothing really stressful or even requiring much thought process or planning besides the ToD combo, which isn't that big of a deal cuz it's still gonna hit hard if you fuck up like one skill (if you fuck up more then you'd fuck up anything else on any other class anyways) and the cooldown is so long it's not part of the basic rotation, therefore not all that punishing, misusing Frost Breath on Frost DK has a bigger impact than this. You can argue this, I don't care, you would be wrong.

    Mastering WW is nowhere near mastering every class, I don't even know why you would think that, just like I don't know why you're taking this so personal, you didn't design WW to be this easy to play so this isn't on you, relax.

    You haven't played survival, I suggest you go do that. (how do I know? Cuz if you did you wouldn't be arguing this, you would be agreeing. Also I didn't mean that it was hard because it's GCD sensitive, I meant that using the RIGHT thing on every GCD matters more than on WW which has a lot of dead time in its rotation, which gives time to think and is less punitive)

    Facts like what? I'm the fact. I play both and told you what things are. You're simply offended cuz you thought you were a good player playing a "hard" class on WoW and I put you back in your baby seat. Reality check, it shouldn't hurt, it should be an opportunity to learn and grow.
    You still explain. WHY?

    I can also run thou survival and go like "DERP YOU JUST KEEP PRESSING DIS".

    I gave you the ability list. So look at it, take it and shut up. Don't explain, it should talk for itself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hablelol View Post
    I feel like people that say this only have keeping an eye on CDs on their mind. Ass Rogue hits about...... 5 buttons? But because of buffs and procs is harder to play optimally than WW. True story from 900+ 95+ percentile P.O.V.
    How about the percentile between WW monks? So you have a casual monk like the average MMO-C'er and a top monk. We can talk about difference that is capped by skill, not some addon that tracks procs only(and 5 buttons to press).
    Last edited by Strifeload; 2017-06-02 at 07:51 AM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Hablelol View Post
    I feel like people that say this only have keeping an eye on CDs on their mind. Ass Rogue hits about...... 5 buttons? But because of buffs and procs is harder to play optimally than WW. True story from 900+ 95+ percentile P.O.V.
    If anything assa is one of the specs that performs the best in the hands of mediocre players, for example it does very well in 50 and 75th percentile for NH heroic and falls off in the high percentiles...

  11. #51
    The button bloat to complexity issues arises because many player struggle past a certain number of active abilities. For most who use the standard UI button 1 to 5 are the most comfortable to use and learn muscle-memory wise. 1 to 5 can be multiplied by x3 with modifiers like Alt+ / Ctrl+ / Shft+ and so on. Players then key bound letters around WASD and again x3 with key-modifiers.

    So looking at around x10 active / x5 situational is where most players are at ease.

    WW in its most optimal talents at the start of Legion fit that perfectly and was so fluid and well designed players with average skill where performing well above average. Great players where simply dominating the spec ..

    WW fault was its extremely well designed -though I'm pretty sure its blind luck they got it this amazing- players picked it up and mastered it fairly quickly ..

    Ability pruning was done because they recognized the fact that players have more fun with a smaller number of buttons to press .. Maybe NOT U but the great majority ..

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    I think you meant feral druid for the same thing, but in melee clusterfuck.
    Valid exemple as well indeed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Strifeload View Post
    You still explain. WHY?

    I can also run thou survival and go like "DERP YOU JUST KEEP PRESSING DIS".

    I gave you the ability list. So look at it, take it and shut up. Don't explain, it should talk for itself.

    - - - Updated - - -



    How about the percentile between WW monks? So you have a casual monk like the average MMO-C'er and a top monk. We can talk about difference that is capped by skill, not some addon that tracks procs only(and 5 buttons to press).
    Your list doesn't talk for itself and I don't have to take anything from a lesser player who thinks WW is a complex class. I,m not gonna ask you to make that list of survival skills, because you don't know how to play that class so you would have to go read on it and make your descriptions based only on internet tooltips and guides. Then I would have to make another long post where I correct all your mistakes cuz you would have missed a bunch of very important details. Why? Because Survival is more complex than WW. It just is.

    But now you're just infuriated and I came to the conclusion that you refuse to learn. So this is over, nothing else I can do to help you.

  13. #53
    I don't know if WW is the most difficult spec to play. What I do know is it is a difficult and punishing spec. Dropping Hit combo is devastating; It will take at least 7 global cooldowns to stack it back up, and during that time you are still using your hard hitting abilities.

    I think the greatest complexity of the spec comes from our AoE. Cleave is easy just continue your normal single target rotation, but when it comes to actual AoE the true complexity begins. The main reason for this is about 10 seconds before the AoE phase happens the WW has to basically stop DPSing and charge up Chi and Energy. When the targets arrive the monk then needs to unleash while also gaining stacks of Mark of the Crane. No other spec that I know of, although they might exist, has such a rough transition from DPSing a single target to DPSing AoE. Without a smooth transition into AoE monks damage becomes garbage and AoE is what we are supposed to be good at.

    Another difficulty in the WW rotation is managing our dps cooldown. I know that WW is the only DPS spec that has a DPS cooldown that can sometimes just be a DPS loss. To know if it is a DPS loss or not requires you to physically look at your clones and make sure they are also channeling FoF. In a raid setting that can be difficult with all the other class' spell effects going off. I wish they would just change it so it didn't lower the monks damage, and just made two clones who hit for 25% each. It is also worth noting that on fights like Mythic Spellblade, and Botanist the clones love to jump onto targets that don't need to be DPSed, and even though you can call them all to your target it still means they jump across the room then jump back making you delay dpsing.

  14. #54
    Yep , very fun. Was my 3rd character to hit 110. They're as mobile as DHs, have on demand heals, plenty of utility, and a neat teleport to the class hall that will return you to the spot from where you used it.

    Thx to Winter Blossom for the awesome sig

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Winded View Post
    I don't know if WW is the most difficult spec to play. What I do know is it is a difficult and punishing spec. Dropping Hit combo is devastating; It will take at least 7 global cooldowns to stack it back up, and during that time you are still using your hard hitting abilities.
    Well, I kinda agree, but dropping hit combo is relatively hard to do. Yes, if you fail it you will be punished hard, but you just need to not press the same button twice in a row, which is extremely easy to avoid with how fluid the whole rotation is.

  16. #56
    It's terrible how much cancer one can get trying to read valuable posts out of the crap some people spew at each other here. Frustration is high with some.

    I liked my monk and then I stopped and couldn't put my finger on the "why?". I still enjoy my monk as tank and use her to heal my guild's fun runs. WW tho ... the only class I played at 110, that has their resource builders hit that crappy and the hard-hitter resource decay to 0 out of combat, within seconds basically. Take Frost DK - the balance between how hard resource builders and spenders hit is good enough for them to just go in and blow stuff up. Similar with Retardins - every 30sec you can even just simply top your hard-hitter resource with another hard hitting and dmg buffing ability. Not as WW monk - guess our "Wake of Ashes" aka SotWL needs to USE chi, not generate 5, else it'd be too OP ... unlike Wake of Ashes with it's aoe demon stun component. On top of that Chi builders are total crap dmg wise and we start every real pull with 0 Chi anyway.

    This pisses me off so much more in open world content, I just run it as BM - double keg smash and BoF deals with anything within 2 globals, especially those pesky "aoe tag for credit race type world quests". Try these as WW and you get pissed off sooner than you'd like.
    Last edited by Tsharna; 2017-06-02 at 01:46 PM.
    Female Tauren Brewmaster Tank!
    They do exist - I play one

  17. #57
    Brewmaster Monk is my favorite tanking spec currently. Even though I didn't like changes for this expansion, I think they are still most fun tanking spec.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    Well, I kinda agree, but dropping hit combo is relatively hard to do. Yes, if you fail it you will be punished hard, but you just need to not press the same button twice in a row, which is extremely easy to avoid with how fluid the whole rotation is.
    Exactly, it is easy to keep up normally, but when I am also dealing with mechanics there are times when I accidentally drop my stacks, it rarely happens but when it does I just feel punished as apposed to feeling good that I was able to keep it up as long as I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsharna View Post
    I liked my monk and then I stopped and couldn't put my finger on the "why?". I still enjoy my monk as tank and use her to heal my guild's fun runs. WW tho ... the only class I played at 110, that has their resource builders hit that crappy and the hard-hitter resource decay to 0 out of combat, within seconds basically. Take Frost DK - the balance between how hard resource builders and spenders hit is good enough for them to just go in and blow stuff up. Similar with Retardins - every 30sec you can even just simply top your hard-hitter resource with another hard hitting and dmg buffing ability. Not as WW monk - guess our "Wake of Ashes" aka SotWL needs to USE chi, not generate 5, else it'd be too OP ... unlike Wake of Ashes with it's aoe demon stun component. On top of that Chi builders are total crap dmg wise and we start every real pull with 0 Chi anyway.
    I find soloing as WW super easy and fast. Single target I can easily kill normal mobs in 1 to 3 GCD, but if I can gather up an AoE pull I can easily nuke them down and walk away with full health ready to do it again. Then when you add the insanely high mobility I feel like I am comparable if not faster than anyone else.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Winded View Post
    I find soloing as WW super easy and fast. Single target I can easily kill normal mobs in 1 to 3 GCD, but if I can gather up an AoE pull I can easily nuke them down and walk away with full health ready to do it again. Then when you add the insanely high mobility I feel like I am comparable if not faster than anyone else.
    It's not about safety of open world stuff - hardly at this point of the expack. You swoop in as BM to the felcosaur area, toss a Keg Smash (with the chance for a double) from range, meanwhile use ISB to proc SD or run your greenswirlyshit talent, drop in a BoF, pull 1-2 more group with Exploding Keg from range and deal done for a large area. You repeat that 6 sec and 2 chi torps later in a whole different place. As WW you swoop in and ... yeah well, you build chi to do anything. Meanwhile as BM you are through 2-4 more packs ...
    Female Tauren Brewmaster Tank!
    They do exist - I play one

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    Amount of buttons to press (and it's obviously exaggerated in the post above) =/= complexity of the spec.
    Complexity, in Legion

    You lost me here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    This statement alone showed your knowledge about other dps specs. And 12 buttons (and you even mentioned long dps cooldowns) is pretty common for most classes.
    Its more than

    • Fury Warrior
    • Arms Warrior
    • Frost DK
    • UH DK
    • Ret
    • Outlaw
    • Assassination
    • Havoc
    • Subtlety
    • Feral


    It's more than the entire melee composition, excepted Enhancement. You can add SV in the list if its a true melee for you.

    That's your common definition ?
    Last edited by SinarisMW; 2017-06-04 at 07:46 AM.

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