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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus View Post
    Someone has to collect the runes to sell, genius.
    Nice.

    I don't see them here bitching about it though.

  2. #122
    It will never happen, in fact, exactly the opposite happened a few times (incentivizing LFR for real raiders), simply because Blizzard relies on them to carry the LFR crowd.

    I do LFR weekly since its inception. There was NO run where the theme of geared heroic/mythic raiders not carrying the runs. When fights are a bit more difficult, like Archimonde/Gul'dan, half the raid dies in the first minute, leading to the usual nerfs. And when you find that extremely rare group where you're the only geared guy, you'll wipe... and wipe... and wipe... to Augur, Elisande, Gul'dan, even Aluriel. Hell, I've been reaching enrage timers in LFR, cause only 4-5 players could stay alive.

    So guess what, that lockout you want, yup, you can forget about it. You will carry these people, hate it, and get your meager augment runes and lowly AP for it, plus the odd legendary and titanforged item.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by laplacedemon View Post
    Higher end raiders do LFR? I find that hard to believe, considering the only thing you could realistically get is more BLP... And they're probably done/almost done with their legendaries anyway.
    Ap relics. you know how crazy those ppl are.
    #bluelivesmatter

  4. #124
    Merely a Setback Jtbrig7390's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    It will never happen, in fact, exactly the opposite happened a few times (incentivizing LFR for real raiders), simply because Blizzard relies on them to carry the LFR crowd.
    No blizzard doesn't rely on raiders to carry the LFR crowd, That is why LFR is tuned the way it is.

    Also your small percent of runs doesn't account for all. I have been in many that didn't have Heroic+ raiders and guess what...we finished it.

    If raiders above LFR stopped going in there it would still be completed just fine and if it didn't blizzard would tune it so it would be.
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  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    If killing boars is boring, I wouldn't do it. And neither should anyone else. If that's their choice and they hate it, that's their problem. Not mine. Not Blizzard's.
    I see this argument made repeatedly by you and others.

    Do you understand that getting Cutting Edge is (sadly) only the last step on a journey, 50% of which is filled with TRIVIAL crap none of us raiders enjoy? But we have to do it, or you can forget about a lot of things which are a necessity to kill Mythic bosses.

    To succeed, there are requirements. To succeed in time, requirements get tighter. To succeed faster than the competition, the requirements SKYROCKET.

    This was NOT always the case. It was exacerbated by gameplay such as Legion's, infinite grinds and RNG.

    It's impossible to not understand it and how it affects people. Keep in mind, killing Mythic bosses is STILL a game, and part of WoW. PvP was relieved of most chores, for example. Mythic raiding should suffer a similar treatment, where we would only need to do a basic amount of stuff, then we should be able to focus on raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    No blizzard doesn't rely on raiders to carry the LFR crowd, That is why LFR is tuned the way it is.

    Also your small percent of runs doesn't account for all. I have been in many that didn't have Heroic+ raiders and guess what...we finished it.

    If raiders above LFR stopped going in there it would still be completed just fine and if it didn't blizzard would tune it so it would be.
    Weekly clearing LFR for years is no small feat. I have enough data to reliably say you people get carried, and get carried HARD. I can prove it with logs too if you want, we can pick log after log and I'll go through the deaths of LFR-only guys and their incredibly low performance, AFK-ing and so on. I.E. - they get carried.

  6. #126
    Merely a Setback Jtbrig7390's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    Weekly clearing LFR for years is no small feat. I have enough data to reliably say you people get carried, and get carried HARD. I can prove it with logs too if you want, we can pick log after log and I'll go through the deaths of LFR-only guys and their incredibly low performance, AFK-ing and so on. I.E. - they get carried.
    So you got logs for every single LFR that has gone on since release? All you are wanting to do is stroke your ego, FACTUALLY blizzard doesn't rely on raiders to carry LFR. That is why once again its tuned the way it is.

    Also don't assume I am just a LFR Raider, I have done both NM and Heroic (besides NH don't care to do heroic NH) in Legion and even in expansion's before. If you carry LFR so hard why not just solo it since it seems by ur comments everyone is useless.

    You are not special because you raid above LFR and you are not carrying anyone. Also once again there is MANY LFR's that get done without NM+ raiders and they are finished.
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  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Taus View Post
    No. Just ... no. This argument makes no sense unless you're extraordinarily inefficient at finding gold in the game. If you don't want to run LFR, a LFR run is NOT the most time-efficient way to earn the rune, especially as the value you're quoting is a bit higher than the actual average price for those items, at least in NA. Even runes and AP combined make for a tepid case for raid leaders forcing heroic/mythic raiders to do this content.

    Requiring a rune is fine. Requiring a reasonable level of AP is fine. Dictating how people obtain those is not fine.

    Again, the problem is not LFR. The problem is raid leaders miscalculating the impact of those, as well as having poor management skills.
    Read the rest of my post. Runes is not the only reason to do LFR, LFR as it currently stands is very efficient as a whole and runes are a big part of that, especially if you're a healer/tank. No ones raid lead is forcing them to do LFR, it just makes sense to do it. And I wish I was exaggerating with rune prices, on Hyjal-US they do cost 450-550 fluctuating. They're on the higher end right now because theres 4 guilds on mythic Gul'Dan (including mine), and if you arent using runes for him then what are they even in the game for? They are very impactful when the entire raid is using one.

  8. #128
    Legendary! MonsieuRoberts's Avatar
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    Your obligation to run LFR is exactly in line with how much effort you feel you need to put into your character to progress as far as you desire to, as easy as you would like to try and make things. Don't be upset with the system allowing you a sliver of a chance at improving your character. Just don't do it if you don't want to.

    The problem can be solved with your solution, yeah, but the cause of the problem (if you want to call being as good as you can possibly be a problem) comes from the players. Not the devs. That's what I think, at least.

    Please understand that I'm not talking about the frustration of RNG or the repetitive nature of running the same instance on multiple difficulties weekly, I'm talking directly to the control and the opportunities you as a player have on your ability to improve your character. Sometimes tons of control is good, other times it's bad. Things like RNG add to one side or the other, and player expectation and perceived "requirements" also tilt that balance left or right.

    Just do what makes you happy.
    Last edited by MonsieuRoberts; 2017-05-20 at 02:10 AM.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    If you carry LFR so hard why not just solo it since it seems by ur comments everyone is useless.
    Most are. Few carry. Nothing to do with ego. Everything to do with numbers. Good thing we have warcraftlogs so people can actually see for themselves, although I guarantee you every actual raider that does LFR often knows exactly what I am saying and has no need to see the guys doing below 200K DPS and staying still in Arcanetic Rings, dying to first Gul'dan add, Mark of Frost on Aluriel, Fel Nova on Augur and so on.

    Look, I have nothing against these players. I have raiders I've recruited from LFR and they've grown up nicely into great performing players. I would give anyone that shows enough dedication and will a chance.

    However, what I do have against is that LFR has any rewards for me and my kind. I don't want to go in, don't want to help, don't want to lose even a minute there. I want to choose who I play with. This is why LFR was awesome in WoD

  10. #130
    I disagree. Since if you are ACTUALLY a top end raider, by the Time LFR time gating passes your gear Ilvl should already be far past the LFR equivalent.

    These complaints about LFR being mandatory for Raiders only tends to come from people who aren't actually good raiders and are like people stuck 5/11 Heroic that think they are super leet and can't stand the thought of other people having gear.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by tacticalxxpanda View Post
    Read the rest of my post.
    I read the entire thing. Still, these arguments are full of cognitive dissonance.

    Let me put it this way. I'll even weigh the arguments against LFR being on its own lockout very liberally and more reasonably than the arguments I'm actually seeing, just to be overly fair about.

    Hardcore raiders are saying it's a chore to run LFR because it's the most efficient way to obtain the combo of AP/runes. Both of these things are obtainable by other means, but the arguments state that LFR runs are the most efficient way to obtain them, and they're de facto required even if not an explicit requirement from a raid leader.

    So let's say those folks get what they want, and so these raiders are not going to "have to" do these runs anymore. What then? You're saying the other paths are much less efficient. The next logical step then if you don't have LFR is the less efficient methods you already have now. Then they'll be grinding those and arguing that they should be somehow removed as well.

    This kind of thinking is what made me get out of progression raiding. If you're truly that pro, at the end of the day when you down the boss, it's going to be 95% player skill and dedication and 5% return on efforts being put in the rest of the grind. Of course these things help. I'm not saying they don't. What I'm saying is true progression raiders, while they can be a lot of bluster and confidence on forums and such, sell themselves short by playing for hours and hours for the chance at a drop with 10 ilvls or such over what they can get fairly easily through what they're doing, or farming a rune instead of spending 5 - 10 minutes to get 400 gold and buying it, or not varying their AP grind. Plus, if they're that burned out from doing all of those things, their raid performance is going to suffer, which in the very best case nullifies the few extra ilvls and the rune.

    So again, to summarize: the arguments I'm seeing for removing LFR as part of the power progression path is that it's the most efficient power progression path and therefore they are compelled to do it. If it's removed they'll be compelled to do something that's less efficient. It's a nonsensical argument.

  12. #132
    most higher end raiders dont give a shit about lfr

  13. #133
    LFR is for people whittling down their bad luck protection & collecting a small amount of AP. What does this idea solve, besides nothing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    An alcoholic fighting his addiction is fighting a jihad.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Novakhoro View Post
    The reason that high end raiders dislike it is primarily two-fold (there are arguments for a third, but I will deal with two) in that: 1) they are strongly incentived to participate in it and 2) it diminishes the sentimental value of getting the kill on whatever difficulty you aspire to complete when Johnny No-Hands and Kelly Keyboard-Turner's blind cats can kill it while maintaining around 8% of optimal DPS/HPS/tankingpersecond.
    You can speak for yourself but you don't speak for other high-end raiders. The Mythic raiders I know and run with don't give two shits about LFR, and I certainly don't care that someone extremely lucky got a 900+ WF/TF gear through LFR.

    Please don't try to insinuate your own personal beef with LFR somehow translates into "the raider community dislikes LFR"
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  15. #135
    Brewmaster Snuffleupagus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    So you got logs for every single LFR that has gone on since release? All you are wanting to do is stroke your ego, FACTUALLY blizzard doesn't rely on raiders to carry LFR. That is why once again its tuned the way it is.
    Incredible how poor your memory is.

    LFR Archimonde was practically unkillable by LFR the first week it was out. It required people to follow the mechanic of stacking on a tank to be ported to the twisting nether in order to kill the add. Otherwise the boss would heal.

    Blizzard had to hotfix the encounter to automatically port people down due to the fuckery that was LFR.

    And what people don't get is that by continuously nerfing the content, it means that people will get bored and not bother.

    LFR Ursoc is solo tankable. Always has been. That's incredibly shit for tanks, because most LFR fights are like that - boring as hell.
    I may pay my subscription every month, but I don't lose sight of the fact that the other 4/9/24/39 people I'm grouped with pay too.

  16. #136
    If you do heroic content, LFR is pointless to do except for runes/gold/AP ... I don't understand the QQ about the gear, it makes no sense to punish LFR primary raiders to venture into Normal for no purpose?... That's just simply moronic. Don't want to burn out? Don't do it. Simple, quick, to the point. Don't whine for your own obsessions and go speaking for other people.
    What is tank?

    "The basic idea of a tank is well understood. It works like an argument with my mother. The mobs keeps beating on you, and the more you throw it's own shit back at it, the more it focuses on you and hates you. Perplexing enough, this is actually not only your goal, but the mob eventually gives you loot and money when it dies instead of writing you out of its will." (Senotay)

    "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." -- William Shakespeare

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Destriel View Post
    If you do heroic content, LFR is pointless to do except for runes/gold/AP ... I don't understand the QQ about the gear, it makes no sense to punish LFR primary raiders to venture into Normal for no purpose?... That's just simply moronic. Don't want to burn out? Don't do it. Simple, quick, to the point. Don't whine for your own obsessions and go speaking for other people.
    I do mythic+ as my end game and while tier gear would be nice to have, it is not necessary for mythic+ dungeons. I am glad as a non-raider for the game not being LFR or die again.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    Most are. Few carry. Nothing to do with ego. Everything to do with numbers. Good thing we have warcraftlogs so people can actually see for themselves, although I guarantee you every actual raider that does LFR often knows exactly what I am saying and has no need to see the guys doing below 200K DPS and staying still in Arcanetic Rings, dying to first Gul'dan add, Mark of Frost on Aluriel, Fel Nova on Augur and so on.

    Look, I have nothing against these players. I have raiders I've recruited from LFR and they've grown up nicely into great performing players. I would give anyone that shows enough dedication and will a chance.

    However, what I do have against is that LFR has any rewards for me and my kind. I don't want to go in, don't want to help, don't want to lose even a minute there. I want to choose who I play with. This is why LFR was awesome in WoD
    Then don't do it. The end. If you're so nolife that you can't help yourself from doing content you don't want to, if you consider WoW work instead of a game, then you need to have a good long look at your own life to understand where you went wrong to end up in the shitty place you're currently in.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    I do mythic+ as my end game and while tier gear would be nice to have, it is not necessary for mythic+ dungeons. I am glad as a non-raider for the game not being LFR or die again.
    I agree with you, it is a good substitute that is rewarding as well as challenging that you can do around your own schedule. It's a wonderful addition to the game.
    What is tank?

    "The basic idea of a tank is well understood. It works like an argument with my mother. The mobs keeps beating on you, and the more you throw it's own shit back at it, the more it focuses on you and hates you. Perplexing enough, this is actually not only your goal, but the mob eventually gives you loot and money when it dies instead of writing you out of its will." (Senotay)

    "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." -- William Shakespeare

  20. #140
    Yeah let's limit things because crybaby OCD fucktards can't practice any self-control.
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