Vengeance DPS

[Ammeritos]

Hi,

I'm starting with tanking but have no clue about talent builds. I read icy-veins but they aren't offering a complete build.

My iLevel is 900.

Since I'm only tanking Mythic+, I'm interested in two maybe 3 builds:

1) What is a good build for maximizing DPS in keys <=8 ?
2) What is a good build for maximizing survivability in keys >=9 ?

3) Is there something like a "cookie-cutter" build for M+?

Some explanation to the proposed builds would be helpful too.

Thanks for your help.

[razkah]

If I remember right, the guide on icy-veins does have talent builds. If that's not enough information, I'd recommend checking Munkky's video about talents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6Ro_QRftcs - he's the author of the icy-veins guide, and pretty much all other guides about Vengeance. I'd also recommend joining the two demon hunter discord servers, the FAQ/pinned posts there will have links to all the "extra" info that may not be in a guide.

If you're just interested in the cookie-cutter though, I'd say its this:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/d...vengeance/ceyz

With the variation being on the level 100 tier, between Fallout and Burning Alive. Fallout for anything under 10 because things die fast and you just need to not die in big memepulls, Burning Alive for 10 and higher where trash packs actually take time and you get a lot of value from it.

[StillwellKR]

Goes 3222231 over 20+ every week
Overall dps 700-950k depending on dungeon

[Anahita]

Goes 3222231 over 20+ every week
Overall dps 700-950k depending on dungeon

Do you happen to have any logs/videos for these? I'd love to see how you handle pulls and so on.

[StillwellKR]

youtube.com/c/stillwellku

i think this is the one though the ui is korean

[Azszora]

I'm using 1222231 for 15+.

[Deleted]

If I remember right, the guide on icy-veins does have talent builds. If that's not enough information, I'd recommend checking Munkky's video about talents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6Ro_QRftcs - he's the author of the icy-veins guide, and pretty much all other guides about Vengeance. I'd also recommend joining the two demon hunter discord servers, the FAQ/pinned posts there will have links to all the "extra" info that may not be in a guide.

If you're just interested in the cookie-cutter though, I'd say its this:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/d...vengeance/ceyz

With the variation being on the level 100 tier, between Fallout and Burning Alive. Fallout for anything under 10 because things die fast and you just need to not die in big memepulls, Burning Alive for 10 and higher where trash packs actually take time and you get a lot of value from it.

More like this http://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/d...vengeance/cKxc if you have the tier set. Maybe feed the demon if you don't have the 4pc.
99: Abyssal for speedruns, Razor spikes for DPS/kiting
100: Fallout good synergy with SB and the new traits
102: Felblade for more pain or Flame Crash for DPS, I prefer Flame Crash
104: FtD without 4pc, Fracture for DPS, Soul Rending not really needed since meta buff and necrotic changes
106: Chains if needed otherwise Quickened Sigils
108: Fel Dev or Spirit Bomb I prefer Fel Dev frees up a lot of globals
110: Soul Barrier, awesome for big pulls of small mobs or high magic hits/DoTs, LR not really worth it most of the time due to the high CD, DI for max DPS

[DarkOsa]

I'm using 1-2-2-2-3-1-1 since I don't have 4p set, but 910 equipped ilvl (too lazy to do Heroic NH regularly). Did a lot of runs testing other builds, this one is best for me. It provides good aoe dps without sacrificing too much damage mitigation, you can get Demon Spikes up when you need them, and not when you want big dps numbers, like Razor Spikes talent inclines to do. Also, with Abyssal Strike you don't need as much Pain as with Razor Spikes (I'm personally Pain-starved in keys lower than +10 because damage income isn't enough). Also remember that Infernal Stike is off GCD, so it's worth using even on ST.

[Saverem]

I thought Fel Devestation was better than Spirit Bomb if you wanted damage.

[Reckoniize]

I thought Fel Devestation was better than Spirit Bomb if you wanted damage.

Depends on the size of the pull really, spirit bomb provides more utility and damage depending on how many are pulled. Fel Dev is always flat damage X regardless of mobs, where as Spirit Bomb is an AOE and heals based off damage dealt. It can surpass it in some situations.

[razkah]

More like this http://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/d...vengeance/cKxc if you have the tier set. Maybe feed the demon if you don't have the 4pc.
99: Abyssal for speedruns, Razor spikes for DPS/kiting
100: Fallout good synergy with SB and the new traits
102: Felblade for more pain or Flame Crash for DPS, I prefer Flame Crash
104: FtD without 4pc, Fracture for DPS, Soul Rending not really needed since meta buff and necrotic changes
106: Chains if needed otherwise Quickened Sigils
108: Fel Dev or Spirit Bomb I prefer Fel Dev frees up a lot of globals
110: Soul Barrier, awesome for big pulls of small mobs or high magic hits/DoTs, LR not really worth it most of the time due to the high CD, DI for max DPS

I'm assuming the person asking this question isn't very familiar with Vengeance and its playstyle. Fracture is imo an unnecessary complication in fast 5mans (you only get to use it on bosses at the current gear standards anyway, and FtD basically ensures 100% uptime on Spikes in 5mans even if you're playing bad [considering extra souls from kills, etc]), as is Soul Barrier (especially compared to LR, which is a "I totally fucked this up, but we're fine" ticket).

Seems like everyone has his own take on this, which just shows that the talent picks are situational/contextual/preferential. "I have no idea how this spec works" is a very real context to deal with and worth talenting for imo (if you're just doing 10s for gear, that is).

[Deleted]

I'm assuming the person asking this question isn't very familiar with Vengeance and its playstyle. Fracture is imo an unnecessary complication in fast 5mans (you only get to use it on bosses at the current gear standards anyway, and FtD basically ensures 100% uptime on Spikes in 5mans even if you're playing bad [considering extra souls from kills, etc]), as is Soul Barrier (especially compared to LR, which is a "I totally fucked this up, but we're fine" ticket).

Seems like everyone has his own take on this, which just shows that the talent picks are situational/contextual/preferential. "I have no idea how this spec works" is a very real context to deal with and worth talenting for imo (if you're just doing 10s for gear, that is).

Assuming someone is a bad/inexperienced player and therefore providing him with a build suited towards that although he didn't ask for it seems awfully patronizing to me. He specifically asked for the max dps, the max survivability and the cookie cutter build, so the build you're going to overall see the best results with. The build you provided doesn't really fit any of these categories, at least in m+.

[Ammeritos]

Hi,

the post was me asking for help starting as a tank. It's just easier to get into M+ groups and I want to be good at it and not drag the group down.
Please don't laugh at me for asking noobisch questions. ;-)

The "cookie-cutter" raid build for maximum DPS could be taken from here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...spec=Vengeance

Razor Spikes / Burning Alive(Fallout) / Flame Crash / Fracture / Concentrated Sigils / Fel Devastation / Demonic Infusion

I chose Heroic because I'm not a mythic raider and maybe it fits better with Mythic+ dungeons.

Is this build a good compromise for M+ >10 in terms of DPS and survivability ?
Btw, my only tank legendary is the ring "Fragment of the Betrayer's Prison". As 2nd I use Kiljaeden's Burning Wish. Does it make sense because of that ring to take "Feed the Demon" and "Demonic Infusion"?

One more question: When is "Spirit Bomb" better than "Fel Devastation"? Isn't "Spirit Bomb" taking away the fragments from "Soul Carver" and so you heal less? Also, in warcraftlogs literally everyone is taking "Fracture". Is this talent really mandatory because I don't like that extra button?

Long story short: I need a Mythic+ starter build that does good DPS and that the healer won't freak out over my damage intake ;-)

Thanks for all your help and posts.

[Deleted]

Hi,

the post was me asking for help starting as a tank. It's just easier to get into M+ groups and I want to be good at it and not drag the group down.
Please don't laugh at me for asking noobisch questions. ;-)

The "cookie-cutter" raid build for maximum DPS could be taken from here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...spec=Vengeance

Razor Spikes / Burning Alive(Fallout) / Flame Crash / Fracture / Concentrated Sigils / Fel Devastation / Demonic Infusion

I chose Heroic because I'm not a mythic raider and maybe it fits better with Mythic+ dungeons.

Is this build a good compromise for M+ >10 in terms of DPS and survivability ?
Btw, my only tank legendary is the ring "Fragment of the Betrayer's Prison". As 2nd I use Kiljaeden's Burning Wish. Does it make sense because of that ring to take "Feed the Demon" and "Demonic Infusion"?

One more question: When is "Spirit Bomb" better than "Fel Devastation"? Isn't "Spirit Bomb" taking away the fragments from "Soul Carver" and so you heal less? Also, in warcraftlogs literally everyone is taking "Fracture". Is this talent really mandatory because I don't like that extra button?

Long story short: I need a Mythic+ starter build that does good DPS and that the healer won't freak out over my damage intake ;-)

Thanks for all your help and posts.

Razor Spikes is really good in terms of DPS, but comes at a price in terms of survivability since you will want to throw out your charges to do more damage instead of saving them. If you can maintain demon spikes it's just free DPS though. It's really nice if you need to kite as well.
Burning alive is a really good survivability choice in AoE since you can spread the DR of Fiery Brand to nearby targets. In raids it's mostly picked, because it provides a small DoT which is more DPS than nothing on single target. I'd advise you to use Fallout though since it has nice synergy with the Erupting Souls trait in terms of AoE DPS and with Feed the Demon or Soul Barrier in terms of survivability.
Fracture is the only reason DH can somewhat stay competetive in terms of single target DPS and has nice synergy with Soul Barrier. Picking it comes at basically no downside if you have the 4pc bonus. Without the set bonus I'd advise you to use Feed the Demon since it helps a lot with demon spikes uptime (very important in m+). When using Fracture you have to be careful, when to spend your pain to DPS or when to spend it for healing.
Concentrated sigils is the best DPS choice, although very minor and not being able to use sigils at range is REALLY bad in m+. You'd want to pick sigil of chains if you feel like you'd need the grip (can be used as an AoE interrupt) or quickened sigils for more AoE silences/fears.
Spirit bomb is really good sustained healing. The healing of the fragments is not that great anyway. It's a lot harder to use and therefore worse in most situations if not used properly. Bursting with Fiery Brand+Fel Devastation is easy and does a lot of AoE dps.
The ring is not really a reason to pick Feed the demon or demonic infusion. You're going to want to maximize demon spikes uptime in m+ anyway. The increased uptime of the ring buff comes as a nice sideeffect, but is not really pivotal. For your 110 talent you're probably going to want to stay away from demonic infusion, since it's mostly used to cheese DPS rankings with Razor Spikes and spamming fracture. LR is the choice if you either have no idea what you're doing or if you know specifically, where you're going to be able to do something crazy with it. I go for Soul Barrier most of the time since it's really awesome in terms of smoothing damage or mitigating big magic hits, both of which DHs can sometimes struggle with. In some situations if used properly it's one of the strongest CDs we have. On some pulls it absorbed over 10mil damage per cast, which is pretty impressive if you ask me.

TLDR: If you don't want your healer to freak out you're going to want to smooth out the damage as much as possible. That means maintaining high uptime of demon spikes against physical attacks and using your soul barrier initial absorb to mitigate big hits (mostly magic nukes) or the minimum absord to mitigate DoTs or a lot of small enemies hitting you. Most of it comes from knowing the dungeons though. Knowing when to pop your meta to mitigate damage instead of using it out of panic, when you already took the damage, knowing which casts to kick etc.

[StillwellKR]

Pretty much all of the traits of defensive perspective(Feed the Demon, Burning Alive, Felblade, etc...) looks good at first.
By time passes when you get good at Mythic+ tanking, those become totally unattractive traits.
Offensive traits highly exceeds the efficiencies of defensives in overall perspective.

For example Fracture is considered ST dps traits, which is also serves good as semi defensives with 5 stacks of Painbringer.
Spirit Bomb, Flame Crash, Fallout differs in mechanism a bit, but similar too.

It is good to start with Fel Devastation, Burning Alive and etc.
However those traits runs low in potential.
If willing to master Vengeance Mythic+ tanking, recommend u to turn to offensive traits at some point.