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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonus View Post
    If 1-2 hours a day isn't a lot, what is? 2 hours a day sounds like a fuckton to me. Particularly if you have a job.
    i have a full time job, i play football in a team (amatour team) and play 2 hours a day. It's not much if you organize

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    there's 50 more points after that that quadruple the strength of concordance
    so yeah it does matter. sure not as much as the old 0.5% used to, but it does. if i stop farming it at least at a reasonable state i will feel like im letting the guild down, not to mention how since because i still have no idea which of my 3 specs is gonna be the best i basically have to keep all 3 of them up
    If your guild would feel let down by you not going above trait 52 on your specs then you need a new guild. I have one weapon at 52 and another about 3 traits away and I haven't really been doing much in the way of a grind for weeks. AK40 will be sufficient, but if you feel you have to go higher on concordance then you need to really reevaluate your guild and choices.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    That would be irrelevant. My guild goal is only keeping into top 50 while staying alive, which we consistently accomplished, even as I had to deal with losing 75% of my players due to burnout from legendaries, then AP. We are barely doing any split runs and only raid 4-5 evenings, 1-2 after clearing the raid.

    In short, we're WAY below what the top guilds do for progress, and I intend to keep it there, in fact, I've just kicked 2 people that wanted to increase AP and alt requirements from the guild not long ago. Also our logs are private, because I know what kind of ego raiders have, and how they go for rankings if allowed the opportunity. So no ranking for them at all during progress - logs are simply a tool to improve our performance, not competing on DPS/HPS. There will be speedruns with logs AFTER we clear.

    That still doesn't mean I like AP or any other system that put unnecessary pressure on me and my team, especially when it's a system that has the obvious goal to give casuals something to do, which I cannot care less about - these people are always the cause of the worst design decisions in WoW. I'd rather have the design we had in previous expansions, where it was easier to accomplish my goals, and there was no infinite progress in the game.
    So basically you're saying that you're not going to prove your statement, and we're just supposed to take what you say as fact. Alright, cool.

    Just a thought, you might not lose 75% of your players due to AP if you weren't chasing retarded breakpoints in an infinite trait that provides infinitesimal upgrades on a cost/benefit table.

    But hey, if you make logs public after progression, the offer remains. Put your log with 65+ points up and we'll see how it compares to similar.
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven? Behold, now, the terrible vengeance of the Forsaken!

  4. #164
    Deleted
    didnt the math to achieve the last trait come out to be something like 1million AP tokens with their base value of 400?

    anyone doing that grind to get to the end of the artifact is foolish to pursue a goal that is impossible to reach, now that it is even more impossible doesnt change that nobody was grinding it out and going to successfully finish their weapon.

    55200100% of 400 = 220800400

    final trait = 200,000,000,000,000,000

    200,000,000,000,000,000 / 220800400 = 905795461 tokens at 50 AK using 400 base AP tokens (WQ warden AP tokens.)

    Nobody was finishing their weapon. EVER.

    AK is effectively pointless with the new requirements for each trait. the only way the grind would ever be worth the time is if they increase the base value of each token (which they might do?)
    Last edited by mmoc327e1ca57c; 2017-05-24 at 03:57 PM.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordfish Trombone View Post
    Why on earth would you need to grind AP now? With AK40 you'll reach Concordance rather comfortably with normal gameplay.
    After that? Who cares?
    If they make a huge feature in Legion worthless, how does that improve the game?
    Personally I didn't mind the original grind (pre 7.2) because I thought the finish line would be attainable but having an impossible goal instantly makes AP rewards completely worthless.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    now tell us your /played time to reach this point and numer of mythic + you did to farm it up

    we get it - yes there are some people who have time to put 200 hours and 300 dungeons into farming this trait but you shoudl relaise how tiny fraction of playerbase you lot are :/.
    IIRC I have around 45 days played so far in legion, this is from wowprogress so this is from launch

    Amount of Mythic 2+ Dungeons completed in time: 247
    Amount of Mythic 5+ Dungeons completed in time: 203
    Amount of Mythic 10+ Dungeons completed in time: 95
    Amount of Mythic 15+ Dungeons completed in time: 10

  7. #167
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Morbownz View Post
    If they make a huge feature in Legion worthless, how does that improve the game?
    Personally I didn't mind the original grind (pre 7.2) because I thought the finish line would be attainable but having an impossible goal instantly makes AP rewards completely worthless.
    I prefer the new ssytem as now the system is at its truest form of what it was always suppose to be. A very slowly increasing bar that you never have to think about. This opens up the avenue of better alternative goals such as higher key stones as I personally never liked to do any keystone that couldnt be stomped but crush more time concious keys to farm up AP pre concordance.

  8. #168
    On my main character and main spec I'll be done with AP "grind" a few weeks after reaching AK40. Thanks, Blizzard. No seriously, thank you for not extending it further. Now I can spend those hours on alt specs... and alt characters.

  9. #169
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Morbownz View Post
    If they make a huge feature in Legion worthless, how does that improve the game?
    Personally I didn't mind the original grind (pre 7.2) because I thought the finish line would be attainable but having an impossible goal instantly makes AP rewards completely worthless.
    Why? How does that remove or diminish the value of points spent in new traits, the extra points spent in 3/3 traits and Concordance itself?
    Why are they all of a sudden worthless, just because AK cap was reduced to 40. It's not like you could finish Concordance with AK 50 ether.

    C'mon now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by f3llyn View Post
    The might have fixed the problem but in the same way that cutting your arm off at the shoulder is a fix for a paper cut on your finger.

    It just doesn't make any sense.

    What they should have done was reduce the cost of the trait and not made it such a stupid grind in the first place, which is what people were actually complaining about.
    What are you on about? People have reached Concordance already and no one is at AK40 yet. It's not a grind anymore. WTF man?!

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Magicpot View Post
    I'm talking about alts. The prospect that people have only one spec or one char is preposterous. This game needs to be optimized so that people can play alts freely without losing progress on their mains.
    It is perfectly optimized. You are able to play anything you like. But of course, progressing the character requires effort. If you can't put that effort in, the character will be behind. This is how it always has been, there just are a lot more ways to progress your character now. You are essentially complaining about too much content, all of which is optional unless you are doing progression raiding.
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  11. #171
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    On a full 20 man Mythic team, having all Concordance 10 (which we will have during early days of ToS 100%) versus having Concordance I is huge.
    In a 5 minute progression fight, with ~1 min PPM (assuming 20% haste) the effects of Concordance 1 (2000 pts of main stat for 10 secs) and 10 (4000 pts of main stat) procs are... minimal at best, even if you're a robotic 99-percentile rotation unicorn. Which you're not, unless you're botting. Encounter movement and mechanics will easily rob you of any advantage those extra points will bring.

    And on top of that, when you combine in the effort of getting from 1 to 10 (21 692 000 000 AP) which is 10 times more than it takes to level a new artifact from 0 to 1 point of Concordance... you'd be absolutely crazy to mandate a grind for it.

    Yes, eventually we'll get to 10 concordance through normal gameplay, as it functions as a dump for AP tokens - but to force your members to hit something like that is just a show in terrible lack of judgement and lack of basic skills in cost/benefit analysis. It's a great way to break your roster - because your people will burn out, even if they're professional fulltime WoW streamers - which I believe you're not.

    If you believe this is competitive edge then I'll lol at you. Hard.

    But each to their own. If it's really that important - then grind away - all night long and be angry at Blizzard for not saving you from your own trap.
    Last edited by mmoc0e47cbaaf5; 2017-05-24 at 04:51 PM.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by NoobistTV-Metro View Post
    It is perfectly optimized. You are able to play anything you like. But of course, progressing the character requires effort. If you can't put that effort in, the character will be behind. This is how it always has been, there just are a lot more ways to progress your character now. You are essentially complaining about too much content, all of which is optional unless you are doing progression raiding.
    Pretty much this. I have a rogue (main), paladin, and demon hunter that I regularly play. The rogue is 910, the paladin and demon hunter are 890. How you can expect an alt to have the same progress as your main without putting in the same amount of time makes no sense.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Magicpot View Post
    I'm talking about alts. The prospect that people have only one spec or one char is preposterous. This game needs to be optimized so that people can play alts freely without losing progress on their mains.
    I think they have come pretty close to doing just that... I didn't have playable alts until 7.2. Never bothered with them because the AP grind and everything else. The changes to AK and being able to advance to AK 20 instantly changed all that -- at least for me. I have limited play time, so I leveled via invasions -- I currently have 4 alts near 900 item level. I have zero doubt they will all have their concordance trait on at least one spec by the time TOS rolls around.

    Meanwhile my main is working towards it 52nd trait on it's third spec. It's not like I really grind anything either. I try to do the emissary quests on my main (raid toon), on a daily basis -- then pick ONE of the alts every day and do all three sets of emissary quests on it -- Ill only do more than that if something like Kirin Tor pops up and I can nuke all three in 15 or so minutes.. Generally, I target the fastest quests to complete, typically takes me an hour of game time at the very most and then I'm done with the "wow chores". I've got four raid viable alts with very little effort and a maxed out main...

    I know a stable of alts is pretty normal for many alt-aholics but it's pretty rare for me. IMHO 7.2 really helped a lot. Had the changes not come, I'd still have my single main and my one gathering toon.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Haloswin View Post
    I think they have come pretty close to doing just that... I didn't have playable alts until 7.2. Never bothered with them because the AP grind and everything else. The changes to AK and being able to advance to AK 20 instantly changed all that -- at least for me. I have limited play time, so I leveled via invasions -- I currently have 4 alts near 900 item level. I have zero doubt they will all have their concordance trait on at least one spec by the time TOS rolls around.

    Meanwhile my main is working towards it 52nd trait on it's third spec. It's not like I really grind anything either. I try to do the emissary quests on my main (raid toon), on a daily basis -- then pick ONE of the alts every day and do all three sets of emissary quests on it -- Ill only do more than that if something like Kirin Tor pops up and I can nuke all three in 15 or so minutes.. Generally, I target the fastest quests to complete, typically takes me an hour of game time at the very most and then I'm done with the "wow chores". I've got four raid viable alts with very little effort and a maxed out main...

    I know a stable of alts is pretty normal for many alt-aholics but it's pretty rare for me. IMHO 7.2 really helped a lot. Had the changes not come, I'd still have my single main and my one gathering toon.
    Pretty much the method that I'm following. There is someone on the official forums complaining that its not fair to cap at 40 since they are playing 12 classes and they _NEED_ Concordance on all 12...

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    There's nothing to prove. There's nothing I said that needs additional proof. All my words were basically: there's an edge to be gained, people will work for it, don't be naive thinking that getting more traits won't make you better.

    And that is a mathematical certainty. Having more stats is giving you more player power. It might be small, it might be possibly offset by better skill, but power remains a MATHEMATICAL CERTAINTY.

    And in my opinion, there should be a cap, so people that want power don't have to grind for it too much. Again, previous expansions were fine. This one isn't. Especially as this crap is here because Blizz tries to cater to casuals, giving them something as a reward each time. I'd stomp this thinking into the ground if I could, /spit on it. Design should start with the most elite players needs in mind, not with the formless masses of people that don't even know what their stat prio is.
    And again, I'll point out that you don't have to grind for it at all. There's a reason the top guilds aren't listed on the top of the AP leaderboards. The benefit of the extra points is far outweighed by a lot of other things you could be doing in preparation, like throwing points into OS weapons, or just taking a break before the grind of another raid opens up.

    Placing a cap on Concordance would just give people the delusion that it's obtainable. Granted, it has a cap now, but it's literally impossible to reach. Bliz has consistently said since 7.2 that they don't want people to feel like they need to grind AP, and the Concordance system is based along those lines. After the first point, the benefits are minimal, especially given the work needed to obtain them.
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven? Behold, now, the terrible vengeance of the Forsaken!

  16. #176
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    I'd never force anyone. But I'd replace them if they fall behind others that perform just as good or better. And everyone knows it, that they have to work for that spot.

    Another ignored aspect of AP is the Stamina that it gives you. It's not like we got to 4.2M HP with just gear.

    But in the end, some people will keep defending insanity design like this, when all that people like me ask for is a damn CAP, a cap that is reasonable and makes the grind easier to pallet. Even the design in 7.0-->7.2 was better - we reached the CAP and it was fine, it took work, be we got there. Anything is better than infinity.

    Even seeing people argue in favor of this design without any good reason for it is cause for nausea and a big exclamation sign to stay away from the whole thing. So I guess it's what I should do, some will keep defending everything that Blizz does, like AP, legendaries, it simply doesn't matter, while many "classic" raiders like I am would rather return to previous reward structures as we had in the 2 good expansions before it all started to go downhill.
    I'm not arguing for anything. It is what it is, there's extremely little we can do to change it before 7.2.5 and ToS.

    What we can do - is to have a holistic look at our raiding rosters - and deciding things like:
    1) What is the cost/benefit of doing this?
    2) Will my people burn out if we have a culture that encourages min/maxing to insanity?
    3) How will that affect my chances of recruiting new people who are up to speed and ready to go?
    4) How will I ensure coherence and consistency in my roster during progression?
    5) Will I actually drop people with less Concordance - in favor of those with more, without considering other performance factors?
    6) What are the strong points of my roster? How do I play to my strenghts? Or is it just all pure numbers.

    I'd be willing to bet that you'll find plenty of performance variation in your logs from pull to pull - and I'm willing to bet that things like fatigue and sensory stress are far bigger factors than some arbitrary amount of points in Concordance.

    But - I don't run your guild, so I'm just offering that as a free consultation advice. You can choose to play the hard way and bench people by their Concordance numbers. That's your call.

    The reality of it all is - that for majority of WoW players - this change was a good one.
    Last edited by mmoc0e47cbaaf5; 2017-05-24 at 05:47 PM.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by CryotriX View Post
    I'd never force anyone. But I'd replace them if they fall behind others that perform just as good or better. And everyone knows it, that they have to work for that spot.

    Another ignored aspect of AP is the Stamina that it gives you. It's not like we got to 4.2M HP with just gear.

    But in the end, some people will keep defending insanity design like this, when all that people like me ask for is a damn CAP, a cap that is reasonable and makes the grind easier to pallet. Even the design in 7.0-->7.2 was better - we reached the CAP and it was fine, it took work, be we got there. Anything is better than infinity.

    Even seeing people argue in favor of this design without any good reason for it is cause for nausea and a big exclamation sign to stay away from the whole thing. So I guess it's what I should do, some will keep defending everything that Blizz does, like AP, legendaries, it simply doesn't matter, while many "classic" raiders like I am would rather return to previous reward structures as we had in the 2 good expansions before it all started to go downhill.



    Oh you're wrong here. I have friends in top guilds. They wanted to do a huge burn for AP once at AK 50 or on the max AK they could get just before ToS. They had plans on what to spam and how much Yet again, never be naive.

    Hint: it's nice to make your opponents think you won't do it, then you have plans on doing it...
    OK. I'll check the boards when 7.2.5 hits. I'm prepared to admit I was wrong.
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven? Behold, now, the terrible vengeance of the Forsaken!

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Seems like you, just like Blizzard, just don't get it:

    On the one hand you have WoD, which had such a dearth of interesting things to do. This resulted in players feeling like there wasn't anything worth doing.

    On the other hand you have the AP grind, which created a feeling that players MUST do it(remember the complaints from MoP dailies stacked behind dailies?) in order to stay on par.


    The problem is that Blizzard has based far too much of the game on linear progression. The AP grind compounds this. The titanforge grind exacerbates it. Earlier in the expansion the Legendary drop system further aggravated it. You either have the stuff you need by grinding endlessly, or you don't.

    What Blizzard needs to do is create a way to bypass some of the grind with skillful play. That way players who can't muster the skill can still progress through time-sunk. While players who are sick of the grind and complaining that they feel like they're forced to grind can use the alternative of just playing well to bypass part of it. But it would need to be a hard enough challenge that it actually presented a legitimate barrier to just skipping everything easily.

    But they'll never do that because Blizzard has to bend every piece of the design and content release process to fuel the subscription business model.
    The feeling of "must do" is one players choose to seek out themselves.
    If there is ANY progression, they are "left behind" if they do not do it.
    Nobody to blame but themselves.
    We saw complaints when something is gated or capped, and when it isn't it simply "has to be" grinded at the highest possible frequency.
    No matter the approach, blizzard are deemed to be wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  19. #179
    Concordance was just hotfixed from 2k up to 4k!

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    No matter the approach, blizzard are deemed to be wrong.
    It's not "No matter the approach". It's just that the past few ways they've approached the issue have been wrong. As I said before, in WoD there was too little. They've swung the pendulum too far and overcompensated in Legion with AP/AK and made it too much.

    So it's not that 'no matter what they do they'll be wrong', it's just that they need to stop working with extremes.

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