Complete LFR = Completed all the Raid content in an Expansion?

[Deadite]

You aren't a raider, you haven't completed the tier, you got the see the content but that's about it.

If you want to do the same content only harder then that is a personal choice. Doing it in LFR or doing it on Mythic it is still done. Each person chooses how much effort they are willing to commit to that. I think people who wipe 200 times on a boss are in cloud cuckoo land but to each to their own.

[Deleted]

Someone who only does LFR doesn't enjoy raiding, they enjoy the story, and if they're in it for the story, that's fine but there's games out there who do story WAY better than wow.

Personally I'm in it for the friends I make, my guild, oh and of course, purples :P

Wrong, I don't know any of the story in this game.

[Deleted]

Do you think that if a player completes LFR and/or even Normal, then they have completed 100% of the raid content in an expansion?

Personally I don't think so. If you put the amount of raid content on a straight line and the line is raid content, and it is divided up by the difficulty levels, then id say a person who only completed LFR would have only completed maybe 5% of the raid content of an expansion.

Just as an example:

LFR = 5% completion
Normal = 20% completion
Heroic = 35% completion
Mythic = 40% completion

If a player were to complete all of these difficulties, killing every boss, then they would be at 100% completion of the raid content in an expansion.

Do you agree / disagree?

So if a player only completes LFR and does heroic dungeons, have they really even nipped the surface of the expansion's content?

If you didn't clear Mythic you didn't complete the expansion. For the people wondering; for anyone doing mythic raiding at any serious level the other difficulties are a joke and i would go as far as to say that it barely counts as content; maybe heroic for the first week but besides that.
You are able to complete LFR, Normal and Heroic through the premade group finder from day 1, Mythic raiding requires organization. The fact that you can queue up for the first 3, and that you have a chance at having the same loot is one of the reasons why Mythic raiding feels very unrewarding at the moment IMO. So much effort for your 915 socketed Gul Dan legs that someone doing heroic just got in 925.

[Nero Stormchester]

Yes because a harder setting doesn't mean more content.

You killed the boss and saw the ending, Raid done.

More mechanics = more content.

[Devilyaki]

Only if there is a boss you can only do in mythic do the lfr guys not kill them all.

[Deleted]

Nah man when I did SoO LFR I kept getting spammed with this.



I mean thanks for the reminder game I know it's not a real raid don't rub it in...

[bungie]

If you want to do the same content only harder then that is a personal choice. Doing it in LFR or doing it on Mythic it is still done. Each person chooses how much effort they are willing to commit to that. I think people who wipe 200 times on a boss are in cloud cuckoo land but to each to their own.

You're saying that running 25% of a marathon is the same as running a marathon cause you were part of it at one point. You didn't finish the content, you didn't finish the tier, you just got to see the tourist mode. There's no accomplishment there.

[Darkeon]

Playing any other game on Very Hard after having it beaten in a lower difficulty doesn't make it new content. Blizzard and WoW are not the exception to formerly mentioned.

Play whatever difficulty - and how many times- you fancy. People enjoy different things, the sooner that settles in some people's minds, the better we will all be.

[Deleted]

You're saying that running 25% of a marathon is the same as running a marathon cause you were part of it at one point. You didn't finish the content, you didn't finish the tier, you just got to see the tourist mode. There's no accomplishment there.

More like u are doing a 110-meter hurdles race...without hurdles, and walking instead of running. But yeah, this.

Playing any other game on Very Hard after having it beaten in a lower difficulty doesn't make it new content. Blizzard and WoW are not the exception to formerly mentioned.

If the game adds new enemies is not newer content? Because that is what Mythic raiding is. Basically most of the bosses have new mechanics, completely changed mechanics or even new bosses.

[Temp name]

Playing any other game on Very Hard after having it beaten in a lower difficulty doesn't make it new content. Blizzard and WoW are not the exception to formerly mentioned.

It's something more to do though. I generally play through the game on easy/medium and then if I like the game I'll do it again on hard and very hard.

[Hctaz]

It is more a philosophical question than a practical one. I completed all the Legion's raids on normal so far so I consider I completed the raid content relevant to me. I know heroic and mythic offer a little bit more content. It means I did not completed all the raid content, but it also means nothing to me since I have no incentive to do those difficulty levels.

But I feel like that's a completely different mindset, one I can agree with. When I was an LFR raider at the beginning of MoP until halfway through ToT, I didn't consider myself "done" with the game when I killed Lei Shen. In fact, Lei Shen LFR was the reason I wanted to get back into raiding in the first place. Seeing that fight on easy mode made me think, "Gee, how cool is this fight on heroic?", and so I sought out raiding again to experience the game's fullest raid content.

The kind of people I have an issue with are the ones that don't accept that they aren't really doing the raid content. Now, I can understand heroic (current term) raiders. I don't know if this is still the case but I believe the fights were made with that difficulty in mind (old normal/new heroic) and then tuned to be harder with added things in them on the hardest difficulty. But essentially the way I always looked at it was the same way I looked at those Japanese video games who came over to America and got an "easy mode" added to them. In Japan you play "the game". It comes to you and it's just like, "This is it. This is THE game." Then they decide that Americans don't want "the game" so they make an easier difficulty and call it "normal" while the true difficulty is called "hard". Sure you can beat Megaman on normal but it isn't the way the game was ACTUALLY designed. You're literally not playing the real game, you're just playing a dumbed down version of the real game. LFR is the dumbed down version. Normal is as well to an extent, though it usually is dumbed down in the sense that mechanics are significantly less punishing but you still have to do them. I don't think they usually cut entire mechanics and I know for a fact that not every boss in Normal is a loot pinata. It's made for organized groups of very casual players who don't necessarily seek out the optimization of some stupid pixels. Or organized groups of better players who just really want to bring back the old aesthetic of "drunk runs" without the pain of never finishing them.

If somebody says to me, "Look, I don't have time for anything other than LFR. I need to get that queue done and finished and I need to be able to drop group without any obligation to any player. My time is limited. I know these aren't the real fights but I still want to see how the bosses look and how the raid instance looks," then I won't get mad at them. Even if they come to me and say "Hey, I finished LFR and the harder difficulties don't really offer anything I'm looking for. I just wanted to see the raid and I have, but I know if I wanted to make the effort I could see the harder levels," I can't get mad. When somebody comes to me and says that raiding sucks and it's really boring and unskilled and that they've cleared the whole raid in one night and it was a joke and that they're quitting and won't raid ever again... that's when I get mad.

TL;DR the people who think clearing LFR is the end game and that clearing it means they've cleared the raid content piss me the fuck off. The people like you who acknowledge there is more content but see LFR as their end game do not make me mad. I wish people like you could experience the harder stuff because I personally have really enjoyable and fond moments of killing a boss after wiping to it 200 times over the course of multiple weeks... but that isn't for everybody.

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Playing any other game on Very Hard after having it beaten in a lower difficulty doesn't make it new content. Blizzard and WoW are not the exception to formerly mentioned.

Play whatever difficulty - and how many times- you fancy. People enjoy different things, the sooner that settles in some people's minds, the better we will all be.

You're looking at it entirely wrong though. The game is made for one difficulty and then they dumb it down severely. Japanese games have actually done this exact thing to us. They release in Japan with one difficulty and then for the American release that original difficulty is called "hard" and they remove a bunch of stuff to make the easier mode. If you think they design the raid for LFR and then add more stuff to the harder levels then you'd be mistaken. The reason they call it "very hard" even though that's actually the base game is so they don't make people feel bad for not playing it the way that they wanted it to be played.

Now, in WoW's case I believe the base game is heroic mode and mythic is extra hard just like when you play Halo and you have weenie mode, casual mode, real mode, hardcore mode. They made the game tuned to the second hardest difficulty but added an extra one that's even harder because they wanted to give people a challenge. They also didn't call the base game normal either. It was "Easy, Normal, Heroic, Legendary" with Heroic even being cited as "the way Halo is meant to be played."

[Darkeon]

If the game adds new enemies is not newer content? Because that is what Mythic raiding is. Basically most of the bosses have new mechanics, completely changed mechanics or even new bosses.

To me doesn't warrant being called new content, no. Just a different, more challenging, difficulty level.

You're looking at it entirely wrong though. The game is made for one difficulty and then they dumb it down severely. Japanese games have actually done this exact thing to us. They release in Japan with one difficulty and then for the American release that original difficulty is called "hard" and they remove a bunch of stuff to make the easier mode. If you think they design the raid for LFR and then add more stuff to the harder levels then you'd be mistaken. The reason they call it "very hard" even though that's actually the base game is so they don't make people feel bad for not playing it the way that they wanted it to be played.

Now, in WoW's case I believe the base game is heroic mode and mythic is extra hard just like when you play Halo and you have weenie mode, casual mode, real mode, hardcore mode. They made the game tuned to the second hardest difficulty but added an extra one that's even harder because they wanted to give people a challenge. They also didn't call the base game normal either. It was "Easy, Normal, Heroic, Legendary" with Heroic even being cited as "the way Halo is meant to be played."

Never said otherwise. I don't think the game is "Meant to be played" at LFR difficulty. But that's mostly because I am able to do better. It'll change from player to player.

It's something more to do though. I generally play through the game on easy/medium and then if I like the game I'll do it again on hard and very hard.

Most certainly. Options for the customer are always welcomed. Better to have them than not to have them at all.

[Hctaz]

Never said otherwise. I don't think the game is "Meant to be played" at LFR difficulty. But that's mostly because I am able to do better. It'll change from player to player.

But that doesn't change from player to player. It only changes based on how Blizzard designs the content. If they design the content to be beaten at LFR difficulty and then add extra ones then fine... but they don't. The player doesn't change the way Blizzard designed their game.

[bungie]

But essentially the way I always looked at it was the same way I looked at those Japanese video games who came over to America and got an "easy mode" added to them. In Japan you play "the game". It comes to you and it's just like, "This is it. This is THE game." Then they decide that Americans don't want "the game" so they make an easier difficulty and call it "normal" while the true difficulty is called "hard". Sure you can beat Megaman on normal but it isn't the way the game was ACTUALLY designed. You're literally not playing the real game, you're just playing a dumbed down version of the real game. LFR is the dumbed down version.

I'm pretty sure all raid content is actually designed with the mythic versions first and then they remove mechanics and dumb it down and make it simple for less talented and organized groups to digest. So I agree with this 100%.

[VarianceWoW]

Like how is this still a discussion, video games have had multiple difficulties for 25+ years. They have also had tangential or "side story" activities for just as long. For any game ever released almost no one has ever truly achieved 100% completion of that game, the same is true for WoW. Last I checked there were something like 4-5 people that had gotten every single achievement in the game of those 4-5 out of tens of millions that have ever played, even those few probably still have optional non achievement yielding bits of content they have never done. I will go out on a limb and say in a game with as much content as WoW no human being will ever truly complete it all.

Video games in general and especially wow were never designed to be 100% completed even though an extremely small minority of people will strive for 100% completion. Games exist to provide entertainment and give us a leisure activity to pass the time. Some people choose to make video games their life and a select few of those have turned it into a lucrative career. People can consider themselves "done" with any game whenever they choose, any goals a player sets for progression or completion are entirely self imposed.

As a fairly hardcore mythic raider myself, why should I care that some guy thinks he completed the game by clearing LFR. It doesn't affect me in any way if that's how he sees it. Conversely why should an LFR raider care whether I cleared the latest tier on mythic or what rank my guild got, we don't play the game for the same reasons and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact we should all be thankful for the fact that WoW has developed into what it is over the last decade plus and can appeal to players of so many different goals.

There is no reason to compare someone who plays any game more casually to someone who takes it to an extreme and plays at the upper echelon of that game . There are countless millions of people who enjoy playing the game of basketball, almost none of which will ever play it at the NBA level. Do you think Lebron James cares whether some guy who plays on the weekend with friends tells those friends that he is the most accomplished basketball player on the planet? Of course he doesn't care because he actually is at the pinnacle of his craft and he knows it. Just because most people will never reach the NBA should they quit playing basketball if they enjoy it? The world would be a way better place if we all just kept doing what we enjoy and let others do what they enjoy and stop trying to compare people who undertake the same activities for different reasons and commitment levels.

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TL;DR the people who think clearing LFR is the end game and that clearing it means they've cleared the raid content piss me the fuck off. The people like you who acknowledge there is more content but see LFR as their end game do not make me mad. I wish people like you could experience the harder stuff because I personally have really enjoyable and fond moments of killing a boss after wiping to it 200 times over the course of multiple weeks... but that isn't for everybody.

This perfectly highlights the problem with this discussion. Why does it piss you off that some guy thinks he has cleared the raid content? What affect does it have on you if Joe Random thinks he is a top level raider after clearing LFR? It literally takes nothing away from what you have actually objectively accomplished in the game among your peers who also raid at a higher level.

Not trying to single you out but I have heard this exact some complaint from many of my friends who raid competitively. Why the fuck should we care what others who don't play in the same arena we do think? If someone came to me and told me that killing Mythic Guldan didn't mean anything and they killed it on LFR the night before so we basically did the same thing, all I would do is say ok and move on(maybe laugh a little to myself). I know in my mind that we didn't do the same thing but there's absolutely no need for me to try to convince them of that fact, nothing wrong with taking the high road and letting people have their falsely held beliefs. People believe all kinds of objectively false things in this world its no ones job to try to change their minds.

[Deadite]

You're saying that running 25% of a marathon is the same as running a marathon cause you were part of it at one point. You didn't finish the content, you didn't finish the tier, you just got to see the tourist mode. There's no accomplishment there.

It is more like you took you 10 hours to run the marathon rather than 3 hours. You took it easy but you still ran it. You may have taken the path of least resistance but job done. You may want to beat your head against a boss for weeks with endless wipes but i will pop in and kill it with 24 strangers and pick up my crap loot then call it a day. Hooooray for me!

[bungie]

It is more like you took you 10 hours to run the marathon rather than 3 hours. You took it easy but you still ran it. You may have taken the path of least resistance but job done. You may want to beat your head against a boss for weeks with endless wipes but i will pop in and kill it with 24 strangers and pick up my crap loot then call it a day. Hooooray for me!

Nah you gave up less than a quarter of the way there but wanted to claim you are just the same as the rest of them.

[merex760]

Some people think clearing LFR means that they beat the game. It's what has contributed to the cyclical nature of people subbing and unsubbing to the game. To a lot of people, clearing a harder difficulty of the same zone is a waste of time and they'd rather play another game. It's really no different than someone beating a game on normal, not replaying it on hard, and moving on to the next thing. It's the downside of having multiple difficulties of the same thing in an MMORPG.

[Deleted]

I see these different levels of raids as follows:
LFR = super easy
Normal = easy
Heroic = normal
Mythic = hard
I've done heroic, I've done the raid. Sure I can raid mythic, if I have the opportunity, but don't really care enough to go look for new guild, cause we lack few raiders for mythic raid. I've done the raid already.

[Hctaz]

This perfectly highlights the problem with this discussion. Why does it piss you off that some guy thinks he has cleared the raid content? What affect does it have on you if Joe Random thinks he is a top level raider after clearing LFR? It literally takes nothing away from what you have actually objectively accomplished in the game among your peers who also raid at a higher level.

Not trying to single you out but I have heard this exact some complaint from many of my friends who raid competitively. Why the fuck should we care what others who don't play in the same arena we do think? If someone came to me and told me that killing Mythic Guldan didn't mean anything and they killed it on LFR the night before so we basically did the same thing, all I would do is say ok and move on(maybe laugh a little to myself). I know in my mind that we didn't do the same thing but there's absolutely no need for me to try to convince them of that fact, nothing wrong with taking the high road and letting people have their falsely held beliefs. People believe all kinds of objectively false things in this world its no ones job to try to change their minds.

I'm sure there are multiple reasons. I'm sure a lot of people feel extremely annoyed that somebody is downplaying the hard work and effort they did to complete the same task. It'd be like if you trained for 7 months to run this race with many obstacles and then somebody just came in, walked along the shortcuts throughout the track and avoided all obstacles and said "Hey look, i'm the same as you!"

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It is more like you took you 10 hours to run the marathon rather than 3 hours. You took it easy but you still ran it. You may have taken the path of least resistance but job done. You may want to beat your head against a boss for weeks with endless wipes but i will pop in and kill it with 24 strangers and pick up my crap loot then call it a day. Hooooray for me!

No. The people running it in three hours have to put in extra time and effort into learning the intricacies of the track. They have to know where every pit stop is, every obstacle, every hill, every little thing to know how to maximize their stamina. You just walked along the baby course off to the side that had escalators for every hill and waved as people ran by and then claimed you did the same race.