Thread: Resto in 7.2.5

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  1. #21
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    I get the feeling that the ring and ToL combo will make for some quite potent hps.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kluian05 View Post
    Seems like it has the same ilvl budget as a 940 purple epic ring then? It's missing the "extra-budget" some legenadries received, like Pyrdaz, to make them more lucrative.
    The legendaries that received extra stats were given those stats because the legendary property didn't increase their throughput. Ex: Moonkin boots that make Regrowth heal a lot, Ekowraith chest, Prydaz.

    The talent on this ring definitely boosts throughput so I doubt it would get extra stats like Prydaz etc did.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    the cultivation nerf is so freakin minor I'm amazed they bothered; if that is the limit of what happens to the kit we should be jumping for joy

    the loss of the 4p (and loss of strong positive synergy with germination/shoulders) will be felt, but we replace it with a pretty decent T20 four piece.

    rdruid has so much going for it structurally (good cooldowns, unlimited mobility, high raw throughput) that it'll never really be bad. If monk/shaman/priest get buffed up some that's all to the good imo.
    We don't have a "pretty decent T20 4pc". The 4 piece, after the nerfs the last build is actually relatively awful. It's essentially a ~50% buff to Efflo. Take a look at how much healing your Efflo is currently doing; the 4 pc probably only adds ~3% throughput, which is very under budget for a 4pc bonus, and probably only about 1/3 as strong as our T19 4pc.

    That's added to the fact that the T20 2 piece is pretty close to a 0% throughput gain. If other healers are getting set bonuses that are in line with what we had in T19, we could easily lose ~10% throughput relative to them. Right now, we are about 11% ahead of the average healing spec in HPS (75th percentile - Nighthold aggregate), so this set bonus thing could on its own dump Druids to middle of the pack. When you factor in the shoulders as well, possibly slightly below that. The thing with Druid throughput is it needs to be high relative to other healers because of the type of healing we do. HoT based healing is objectively less valuable than the type of healing patterns that for example Shaman/Paladins and even Holy Priests output, because they have a lot of abilities that actually save people as opposed to slowly trying to tick them up. HoT healers are kind of crap if they don't bring really strong throughput, and it remains to be seen how hard this hits us. Like I said, I am expecting a ~15% relative throughput hit.

    Also, the SoTF ring is not likely to be one of our BiS legendaries. Velen's remains clear #1, and I really can't see how it would outscale belt/Prydaz/Tearstone. You're basically looking at an SoTF buff on about every 2nd WG, so ~+38% WG healing. Look at your logs, but how much actual throughput is +38% WG typically? It's somewhere around 3-4% for me. That isn't a particularly strong legendary. Prydaz is an average of ~7% (factoring in proc plus the extra secondaries), and the belt can exceed that if used on a high tank damage fight. And, even nerfed, Tearstone is typically 5%-7% whenever I've tested it. The SoTF ring is just not particularly good, and certainly will not offset any of the coming nerfs. Plus, the SoTF ring right now actually has ~700 less secondary stats than other 940 legendary rings. If that's intended, you have to downgrade its throughput further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypasonic View Post
    I get the feeling that the ring and ToL combo will make for some quite potent hps.
    The ToL helm is probably garbage (or at least mid to lower tier). At the 15% proc rate / 12 second duration, you're looking at ~9% uptime with 1 WG cast/20 seconds. And, that 9% uptime is a random proc, and won't necessarily proc when you even need 12 seconds of elevated healing. Not only that, even though it will allow you to get an 8 target WG off, your timer on it is going to be exceedingly tight. I have a 1.28 sec cast time on WG, and WG starts on CD when the Incarnation proc happens. Therefore, I would have a 0.7 second window in which I need to start casting WG after it comes back off CD to be able to get an Incarnation buffed one off. That's pretty cumbersome, and if you have to move or whatever when it comes off CD, or if you are not extremely careful to clip it and be on GCD for that 0.7 secs, you miss out. Not clipping it could well force you to get 1 less GCD off during the 12 seconds too, which further reduces the value.

    And, at 9% uptime, it's not numerically great. You are looking at probably +40% throughput on average while Incarnation is up (whenever I've estimated it off logs). That gives you an estimated 3.6% added total throughput from the legendary, which is pretty poor and makes it 5th or 6th best legendary at best. To get it to the point where it's on par with other top options for that 2nd leg slot, it needs to add something like +7%, and you would need to assume WG being cast on CD every CD (obviously not realistic) to get anywhere close to it. Not only that, it takes up a tier slot, which could be a big throughput drop if they don't nerf T19 2pc, and reduces gear flexibility in general.

    I don't see either of the new legendaries being any good, or at least being any good if you have the existing ones to pick from.

  4. #24
    I tested the first 2 PTR bosses today, the healing style is highly dependant on how low the "switmended" target was. The cd reduction was highly effecting my ring/tier-20 4set. With the ring my WG was doing the same healing as my rejuvs. You could feel the burst healing from WG, was kinda awesome to see!

    I tested the legendary helm and I found it to be awful, sometimes it didn't proc from 10 WG, sometimes from 1 WG. That kind of RNG is something that should not be part of healing.

    I ran prosperity which I feel will be the go-to talent with ring/tier and this will change the healing gameplay a lot, look for low targets to swiftment - make sure efflo is in good location - make sure there is enough damage for WG to be used with SotF buff.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post

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    The ToL helm is probably garbage (or at least mid to lower tier). At the 15% proc rate / 12 second duration, you're looking at ~9% uptime with 1 WG cast/20 seconds. And, that 9% uptime is a random proc, and won't necessarily proc when you even need 12 seconds of elevated healing. Not only that, even though it will allow you to get an 8 target WG off, your timer on it is going to be exceedingly tight. I have a 1.28 sec cast time on WG, and WG starts on CD when the Incarnation proc happens. Therefore, I would have a 0.7 second window in which I need to start casting WG after it comes back off CD to be able to get an Incarnation buffed one off. That's pretty cumbersome, and if you have to move or whatever when it comes off CD, or if you are not extremely careful to clip it and be on GCD for that 0.7 secs, you miss out. Not clipping it could well force you to get 1 less GCD off during the 12 seconds too, which further reduces the value.

    And, at 9% uptime, it's not numerically great. You are looking at probably +40% throughput on average while Incarnation is up (whenever I've estimated it off logs). That gives you an estimated 3.6% added total throughput from the legendary, which is pretty poor and makes it 5th or 6th best legendary at best. To get it to the point where it's on par with other top options for that 2nd leg slot, it needs to add something like +7%, and you would need to assume WG being cast on CD every CD (obviously not realistic) to get anywhere close to it. Not only that, it takes up a tier slot, which could be a big throughput drop if they don't nerf T19 2pc, and reduces gear flexibility in general.

    I don't see either of the new legendaries being any good, or at least being any good if you have the existing ones to pick from.
    I meant the new ring with the talent ToL not the helm, the helm is bad like you say, but should the encounter require it sotf+tol could be interesting.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypasonic View Post
    I meant the new ring with the talent ToL not the helm, the helm is bad like you say, but should the encounter require it sotf+tol could be interesting.
    The ring gives SoTF and the helm gives ToL.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    The ring gives SoTF and the helm gives ToL.
    I think they mean use the sotf ring and manually talent ToL instead of cult.
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  8. #28
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    ^ Yes lol. I didn't even bother trying the helm on the ptr, but popping tree and then having a sotf WG was a nice burst of hps

  9. #29
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    Honestly set bonuses seem underwhelming and the current interaction between legendary shoulders and t19 bonus is gone. Id expect the other healers to pull ahead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by masterhorus8 View Post
    I think they mean use the sotf ring and manually talent ToL instead of cult.
    Even if the SoTF ring becomes worth using, I still don't see why you would use ToL over Cultivation and how having the SoTF ring would really affect that. When people are <60%, Cultivation is nearly the same power increase as ToL is when it's up without being restricted by the CD, so even with the HoT being nerfed slightly, Cultivation will remain the go to talent in that row. The only synergy that SoTF has with ToL is the 8 target WG, and even then, you would need really tight timings on Swiftmend usage going into ToL to get 2 8 target SoTF WGs off. Even if you can do that, I doubt it's enough total added throughput to warrant not having Cultivation available on demand.

    Also, the people taking Prosperity and then trying to set the value of the SoTF ring and/or 4 piece with Prosperity talented are IMO being kind of ridiculous and inflating the value of it. All Prosperity gives you is 10% more Swiftmend casts plus one extra cast per fight. Sure, it will give you 10-15% more uses of SoTF and 4 piece buffs. However, the actual value of both the SoTF ring and the 4 piece is only ~3-4% added throughput. So, about 0.4% more throughput if you have 4 pc and 0.8% if you have 4 pc and SoTF ring. Why in god's name would you drop Cenarion Ward - a talent which gives you ~5% more throughput to take Prosperity which is going to add less than 1% throughput even in the best use case for it? That's totally nonsensical, and anyone testing 4pc/SoTF ring with Prosperity talented and posting about how good they are on <2 minute PTR fights are being ridiculous. CW will clearly be the go to still.

    The only possible additional argument for taking Prosperity is that it gives you more flexibility on Swiftmend uses because of the charges and lets you time your 4pc/SoTF better. For 4pc, I think the argument is totally moot, because the nerfed 4 piece has 50-60% uptime as is. For something with that much uptime, but is relatively weak in terms of power when it's up, there's no real need to "time it perfectly". For SoTF, you might have an argument on the timing. However, this "better timing" on SoTF would have to equate to something like 4% more total throughput added to be enough to warrant the throughput loss from replacing CW with Prosperity. That's not going to happen, because the total value of having SoTF in the first place is probably only 4% (maybe 5% in an ideal case). On top of that, you probably aren't going to equip the SoTF ring in the first place either, because it adds significantly less potential throughput than the other top tier options for the 2nd legendary slot (Prydaz, belt, Tearstone).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Honestly set bonuses seem underwhelming and the current interaction between legendary shoulders and t19 bonus is gone. Id expect the other healers to pull ahead.
    Pretty much. Druids were #1 but only by a few percent on an aggregate level prior to 7.2. What moved us the 12-15% ahead of the average in 7.2 is the change to the shoulders and the interaction with that and the 4 piece.

    Take the shoulders away, and we are back to about where we were pre-7.2. On top of that, they are taking away a 2 pc and 4 pc that were probably ~3% and ~10% healing on average and replacing them with T20 bonuses that are probably ~4% in total. Assuming other healers get bonuses that are stronger than our T20, we could easily fall into the middle or even bottom of the pack with these changes. That's not a great spot for the spec to be, since the patterns/way that Druids heal mean we don't have a lot of value if we don't have top of the line throughput. We aren't like a Shaman or Paladin that could probably sit at the bottom of effective throughput but still be mandatory due to unique mechanics and utility.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadSkillzzTV View Post
    I ran prosperity which I feel will be the go-to talent with ring/tier and this will change the healing gameplay a lot, look for low targets to swiftment - make sure efflo is in good location - make sure there is enough damage for WG to be used with SotF buff.
    This sounds fucking awful on so many levels. Especially the part about efflo. I mean i guess it depends largely on encounter design but i would hate to have any significant part of our thoroghput or gameplay tied ul in some.positioning game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    Even if the SoTF ring becomes worth using, I still don't see why you would use ToL over Cultivation and how having the SoTF ring would really affect that. When people are <60%, Cultivation is nearly the same power increase as ToL is when it's up without being restricted by the CD, so even with the HoT being nerfed slightly, Cultivation will remain the go to talent in that row. The only synergy that SoTF has with ToL is the 8 target WG, and even then, you would need really tight timings on Swiftmend usage going into ToL to get 2 8 target SoTF WGs off. Even if you can do that, I doubt it's enough total added throughput to warrant not having Cultivation available on demand.

    Also, the people taking Prosperity and then trying to set the value of the SoTF ring and/or 4 piece with Prosperity talented are IMO being kind of ridiculous and inflating the value of it. All Prosperity gives you is 10% more Swiftmend casts plus one extra cast per fight. Sure, it will give you 10-15% more uses of SoTF and 4 piece buffs. However, the actual value of both the SoTF ring and the 4 piece is only ~3-4% added throughput. So, about 0.4% more throughput if you have 4 pc and 0.8% if you have 4 pc and SoTF ring. Why in god's name would you drop Cenarion Ward - a talent which gives you ~5% more throughput to take Prosperity which is going to add less than 1% throughput even in the best use case for it? That's totally nonsensical, and anyone testing 4pc/SoTF ring with Prosperity talented and posting about how good they are on <2 minute PTR fights are being ridiculous. CW will clearly be the go to still.

    The only possible additional argument for taking Prosperity is that it gives you more flexibility on Swiftmend uses because of the charges and lets you time your 4pc/SoTF better. For 4pc, I think the argument is totally moot, because the nerfed 4 piece has 50-60% uptime as is. For something with that much uptime, but is relatively weak in terms of power when it's up, there's no real need to "time it perfectly". For SoTF, you might have an argument on the timing. However, this "better timing" on SoTF would have to equate to something like 4% more total throughput added to be enough to warrant the throughput loss from replacing CW with Prosperity. That's not going to happen, because the total value of having SoTF in the first place is probably only 4% (maybe 5% in an ideal case). On top of that, you probably aren't going to equip the SoTF ring in the first place either, because it adds significantly less potential throughput than the other top tier options for the 2nd legendary slot (Prydaz, belt, Tearstone).

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    Pretty much. Druids were #1 but only by a few percent on an aggregate level prior to 7.2. What moved us the 12-15% ahead of the average in 7.2 is the change to the shoulders and the interaction with that and the 4 piece.

    Take the shoulders away, and we are back to about where we were pre-7.2. On top of that, they are taking away a 2 pc and 4 pc that were probably ~3% and ~10% healing on average and replacing them with T20 bonuses that are probably ~4% in total. Assuming other healers get bonuses that are stronger than our T20, we could easily fall into the middle or even bottom of the pack with these changes. That's not a great spot for the spec to be, since the patterns/way that Druids heal mean we don't have a lot of value if we don't have top of the line throughput. We aren't like a Shaman or Paladin that could probably sit at the bottom of effective throughput but still be mandatory due to unique mechanics and utility.
    Maybe i'm wrong, but IIRC you pretty much failed all the prediction on the spec since the alpha's forums.

  13. #33
    how significant is the CD reduction on swiftmend from the set bonus? Like if you heal a target at 50% health, how much cooldown time to you get back?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    how significant is the CD reduction on swiftmend from the set bonus? Like if you heal a target at 50% health, how much cooldown time to you get back?
    It's completely linear. If they're at 1 hp, you'll get the full 40% CDR (cooldown reduction). If they're at 50% hp, you'll get 20% CDR.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Maybe i'm wrong, but IIRC you pretty much failed all the prediction on the spec since the alpha's forums.
    So, do you have anything constructive to contribute, or any actual data/points to refute my projections, or did you just come in here to throw shade for the sake of throwing shade?

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    Quote Originally Posted by masterhorus8 View Post
    It's completely linear. If they're at 1 hp, you'll get the full 40% CDR (cooldown reduction). If they're at 50% hp, you'll get 20% CDR.
    I suspect if we are trying to maximize the 4pc uptime, and basically just use Swiftmend on CD whenever the Swiftmend/Efflo has anything to heal, we will probably end up with something like 75% HP being the average health of targets we hit with Swiftmend. That would yield a 3 second average CD reduction, and put 4 pc uptime at 56% instead of 50%.

    This 2 piece in general is just particularly bad - arguably on par with how bad the BRF 4 pc was.

  16. #36
    Dunno about you guys but I liked Efflo healing on the PTR mythic tests on my mainspec boomkin. I played pretty much a full efflo/WG build with Tearstone, SotA, 4+2set, Prosperity, Cultivation, Inner Peace, Flourish and the WG trinket. I think Spring Blossoms should scale with the 4 piece to make it truly competitive with the traditional rejuspam-style of healing.

    Granted I didn't really pay any heed to my mana in the testing because not relevant for me.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakloh View Post
    Dunno about you guys but I liked Efflo healing on the PTR mythic tests on my mainspec boomkin. I played pretty much a full efflo/WG build with Tearstone, SotA, 4+2set, Prosperity, Cultivation, Inner Peace, Flourish and the WG trinket. I think Spring Blossoms should scale with the 4 piece to make it truly competitive with the traditional rejuspam-style of healing.

    Granted I didn't really pay any heed to my mana in the testing because not relevant for me.
    If Spring Blossoms scaled with the 4 piece buff, it would essentially make the talent 50-60% stronger than it is now. That would probably make it mandatory 100% of the time if you have 4 piece, given that it is already competitive now. With dropping T19 4 piece and dropping the shoulders, Germination is going to become a lot less used as a talent option than it is on live, because it's heavily boosted by those two things. You'd probably only take Germination in 7.2.5 on fights where debuff type healing (like Tichondrius, Spell Blade) is the most important thing, and then default to the other 2 talents on every thing else. If Spring Blossoms was buffed by 4 piece, you'd just take and forget that talent all the time.

    I still don't see any justification for taking Prosperity over CW in any build or legendary/talent setup. While Prosperity buffs SoTF/4 pc/SoTF ring, etc., it doesn't buff any of those things by enough to warrant dropping a talent that adds 5% additional healing. You shouldn't use that talent as a means of justifying/evaluating the strength of the new 7.2.5 stuff, because you are gimping your overall throughput/operating at a loss in taking it.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post

    I still don't see any justification for taking Prosperity over CW in any build or legendary/talent setup. While Prosperity buffs SoTF/4 pc/SoTF ring, etc., it doesn't buff any of those things by enough to warrant dropping a talent that adds 5% additional healing. You shouldn't use that talent as a means of justifying/evaluating the strength of the new 7.2.5 stuff, because you are gimping your overall throughput/operating at a loss in taking it.
    I think you are overestimating CW and underestimating Prosperity quite a bit here.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakloh View Post
    I think you are overestimating CW and underestimating Prosperity quite a bit here.
    I think you're underestimating CW and overestimating Prosperity quite a bit here.

    All prosperity will really allow is for you to have a bit more control over your 4p if you don't need it every 25-ish seconds. And our 4p is EXTREMELY underwhelming. And Prosperity on it's own does jack all for a healing increase. Hell, if our 4p remained what it was prior, Prosperity probably would have more value because holding onto the 4p for good usage would be more important.
    Last edited by masterhorus8; 2017-05-28 at 05:51 PM.
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  20. #40
    Prosperity was MAYBE a thing before the 4p nerf. Now with 50%+ uptime and a marginal effect, the flexibility offered by Prosperity is hardly worth the talent point.
    Having said that, I think the 4p is underrated even in its current form. 5% healing from set bonus is not too bad. Yes 4p19 was more than that, but it was/is broken. The more significant issue is the weakness of 2p20. I appreciate the shift of the bonuses to some lesser used parts of the rdruid kit, but the numbers aren't quite there, yet.

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