PTR Build24163 Legendaries

[Tehterokkar]

The BM one isn't bad, it's looking to be one of our new BiS legendaries.

It will never be BiS unless Blizzard butchers 2pc NH + 4pc ToS.

[JoshuaNLG]

It will never be BiS unless Blizzard butchers 2pc NH + 4pc ToS.

Unless you get a high titanforge on the NH 2pc, it ain't worth equipping when we move into ToS, and even then it's arguable at best.

[nidosarg]

Unless you get a high titanforge on the NH 2pc, it ain't worth equipping when we move into ToS, and even then it's arguable at best.

All depends becouse somepeople are gettin 920 Heroic-925 Mythic /Titanforge... 2pc Bonus still strong even with +10/15 ilvl dif.

[Khrux]

The 2pc+4pc is basically eating up all your armor slot items, so the legendaries you can wear while retaining those 6 armor slots are jewelry, bracers, belt, boots and trinket.

So for BM;

This means mantle, voodoo mask, shaldrassil roots and the new chest piece are out of the equation.

This leaves pyrdaz, sephuz, kil'jaedan, Apex ring, bracers, belt and the new ring.

So really the question is will we use Belt/Bracer or Belt/New Ring?

[andreasels]

The 2pc+4pc is basically eating up all your armor slot items, so the legendaries you can wear while retaining those 6 armor slots are jewelry, bracers, belt, boots and trinket.

So for BM;

This means mantle, voodoo mask, shaldrassil roots and the new chest piece are out of the equation.

This leaves pyrdaz, sephuz, kil'jaedan, Apex ring, bracers, belt and the new ring.

So really the question is will we use Belt/Bracer or Belt/New Ring?

I don't think that 2pc+4pc will be a thing. Blizzard started to nerf T19 already on PTR and I guess if it will be the optimal thing to go for 2pc+4pc, they will nerf it further.

[Deleted]

I don't think that 2pc+4pc will be a thing. Blizzard started to nerf T19 already on PTR and I guess if it will be the optimal thing to go for 2pc+4pc, they will nerf it further.

I don't think it will be for BM because the 2pc NH can basically be compensated by higher itemlevel items.

MM will probably still want to use it. 1 min CD on Trueshot is way to good considering the 4PC from TOS buffs Trueshot this even further. This removes the MM hands legendary and makes the new legendary ring for MM quite attractive for single target (Lock and Load and True Aim).

[Keren]

Were these sims done with the legendary shoulders equipped?

Because the shoulders change their effect in 7.2.5 you wouldn't need to sim with them...

[andreasels]

Because the shoulders change their effect in 7.2.5 you wouldn't need to sim with them...

Since the shoulder effect is made baseline, you would need to sim with them to get a better idea how it will be in 7.2.5

[Tehterokkar]

Since the shoulder effect is made baseline, you would need to sim with them to get a better idea how it will be in 7.2.5

Or you can just enable the PTR option in SimC and not use shoulders and include all the changes for 7.2.5.

[Guzrud]

You might be right that the ring is not going to be great, I was not trying to argue that it was going to be. However, I took issue with the way you kept using flawed arguments, all of which seemed to continually underestimate the effect of the ring, as if you were trying to force a result out of the numbers in order to agree with the assumption you made before you actually did any of the analysis. If your conclusion ends up being right (which it very well might be), it would not be because you did the analysis correctly, it would be because your flawed reasoning happened to end up correctly modelling all the changes that you didn't (initially) consider.

Yes, OwtP (and thus the ring) will lose a lot of value from the loss of the T19 4 pc bonus, I did mention this, but so will the belt. The belt is actually more directly affected by the loss of BW uptime because the entire benefit of the belt only works during BW, whereas a portion of the benefit of OwtP comes from the extra damage you deal with Dire Frenzy/Stomp, as well as the extra focus they generate (both of which do not require BW to work). However, when we lose the T19 bonus we'll gain the T20 bonus, which increases the power of BW, making both OwtP and the belt stronger again (though having a more pronounced effect on the belt). I am of the opinion that we don't know whether this change in tier will have an overall positive or negative effect on OwtP/belt, particularly since we know there will be a sweeping balance pass of all specs, which might change the effect of the tier bonuses (even T19, as we've seen earlier).

I also mentioned other changes that will make our analysis inaccurate. The sims didn't include the change of Dire Frenzy focus from instant to gradual (which will favour OwtP, since OwtP previous lead to a lot of focus capping when you got lucky with Wild Call procs), or the huge nerf to KC damage (which will hurt the belt, since the main benefit of the belt is to allow more KCs during BW with Killer Cobra), there'll also be the 0.2s GCD reduction during AotW, which should benefit both OwtP and the belt (since this change will reduce the amount of focus capping, which both the belt/OwtP had issues with).

I am putting all this emphasis on the comparison with the belt because it's currently one of the two top legendaries, with the shoulders being significantly better. With the current effect of the shoulders becoming baseline, and the new shoulder effect being pretty similar to the Apex ring, the belt would intuitively take the shoulder's place as the top legendary and if the ring is close in power to the belt then that would mean the ring is a pretty decent legendary. But that's only when using current gear/mechanics, whereas a lot of changes will happen when the ring becomes available, which could drastically affect the numbers.

So ultimately, yes, I'd agree with the general assessment that this is 'not even worth discussing'. It's all just approximations and speculation. This kind of discussion will be a lot more productive when the patch hits, the balance pass happens, and we have actual sim results from the live game. However, it might be important to consider what the point of this thread is.

The effect on the ring is actually quite nice the real issue was the stat allocation. On the latest PTR build the stat allocation has been increased so the point is quite moot now but clearly there was an issue with the itemization which was leading to the inadequacies of the ring that blizzard is already addressing. If the stat allocation is brought into line there is a decent chance that it could be a great legendary. My only point which is 100% accurate and irrefutable was that with the statistical disadvantage of equiping the ring in its original form over another legendary would have made it very difficult for it to compete with other legendaries.

For throughput legendaries there are two way the impact your dps.
1. Extra stats over regular drops
2. The net gain from the actual effect of the legendary

If you equip a legendary that is(or in this case was) vastly underbudgetted you will lose stats and thus you lose dps before you even consider the effects on said legendaries. If you lost say 1000 secondary stats you are losing in my case 25k dps considering my stat weights.

To put this more simply if there were no effects on legendaries you would never wear the ring over say the belt or the bracer because you would lose a significant amount of dps due to just not having the same stat allocation.

So in order for the ring to actually be better than any other legendary it would not only have to have a better effect its effect would have to actually be better than the effect plus the dps loss from the statistical disparity between the items as well.

The effect is just half of the equation when considering what legendary will be the best. The ring has a great effect and I think with the right stat budget it has some great potential but when this converation started it did no and that was the only point I was making.

[Turtel]

The effect on the ring is actually quite nice the real issue was the stat allocation. On the latest PTR build the stat allocation has been increased so the point is quite moot now but clearly there was an issue with the itemization which was leading to the inadequacies of the ring that blizzard is already addressing.

The stat budget for the ring hasn't increased as far as I've seen: the reason the stats could have increased on the PTR is because its ilvl has gone from 940 to 970. If the ring had 'bad' stats previously, it should still have 'bad' stats after this change. Actually I just calculated it (using Wowhead stats): the belt gains 933 stats while the ring only gains 511 stats from the 30 ilvl increase. So initially, this jump in ilvl will hurt the ring more, however, as we gain better gear, this absolute difference should shrink since our belt upgrades will gain more stats than our ring upgrades, for the exact same reason the legendary belt gained more stats than the ring from the ilvl jump.

Also, due to the exponentially scaling amount of agility on all our other gear, agility will become worth less and less (percentage wise), which is what most of the 933 stat gain on the belt was (762 gain in agility, 171 secondaries), whereas the ring's gain was pure secondary stats, which will still become worth less and less (percentage wise), but at a rate slower than agility. Basically, early in the tier, the ring should rank lower, but will gain ground as the tier progresses. Actually, early in the tier, the belt will also be underestimated compared to other legendaries, since the belt slot is also among the worst in terms of stat budget.

For throughput legendaries there are two way the impact your dps.
1. Extra stats over regular drops
2. The net gain from the actual effect of the legendary

If you equip a legendary that is(or in this case was) vastly underbudgetted you will lose stats and thus you lose dps before you even consider the effects on said legendaries. If you lost say 1000 secondary stats you are losing in my case 25k dps considering my stat weights.

To put this more simply if there were no effects on legendaries you would never wear the ring over say the belt or the bracer because you would lose a significant amount of dps due to just not having the same stat allocation.

So in order for the ring to actually be better than any other legendary it would not only have to have a better effect its effect would have to actually be better than the effect plus the dps loss from the statistical disparity between the items as well.

The effect is just half of the equation when considering what legendary will be the best. The ring has a great effect and I think with the right stat budget it has some great potential but when this converation started it did no and that was the only point I was making.

I find it interesting that I was going to make this exact same point in my previous post before it got too long; I think we both understand this detail. Your disagreement with my analysis seems to stem from the fact that I chose not to subtract the extra stats of another legendary when calculating the % gain of the ring (or the belt). But in the end it actually doesn't matter whether you do or do not: if the analysis is done correctly, both methods should agree on whether one legendary is better than another.

The two methods do result in different values, but that's because the two values mean different things. My value gives the % gain that results from going from just wearing the shoulders to wearing shoulders+ring (+5.6%), or shoulders+belt (+6.1%). Your value would give the % increase from going from wearing ilvl 940 shoulders to wearing ilvl 910 shoulders+ring, since you subtracted the extra stats of the shoulders but then kept their effect. Your value could potentially end up being negative, depending on which two legendaries you calculate the % for (for example, using my gear, if you started with the legs instead of the shoulders, you'd calculate a negative % for Qa'pla using your method), whereas my value is always positive.

To use your terminology (where the legendaries give two benefits: 1. their stats and 2. their effect), what you've done when calculating the % gain of the ring is add benefit 1 and benefit 2 of the ring (where benefit 1 happens to be negative), then subtracted benefit 1 of the shoulders. If you wanted to properly compare this % value with the % value of any other legendary, you would also have to subtract benefit 1 of the shoulders when doing their calculations too, which would cause the % gain of all legendaries to drop by exactly the same amount (i.e. subtracting the stats of the shoulders makes no difference to the final rankings of the legendaries). This even applies if you wanted to calculate the % gain of the shoulders: you would add benefit 1 and benefit 2 of the shoulders together, then subtract benefit 1 of the shoulders to arrive at the final %.

This is why I used the terms 'unnecessary', 'meaningless' and 'misleading' to describe subtracting the stats of another legendary (note that I did not use the term 'wrong'). Unnecessary because it's just an extra step that makes no difference in the final result. Meaningless because, although you arrive at some quantity that can be used to correctly compare legendaries, the actual value itself is a mishmash of the benefits of different legendaries. Misleading because the quantity that you calculate is counterintuitive: when people say a legendary gives x% of a DPS increase, what they mean is benefit 1+2 (to use your terminology) gives x% of an increase, not benefit 1+2-benefit 1 of another legendary.

I actually think you ended up misleading yourself. You subtracted the extra stats of the shoulders when calculating the % gain of the ring (a valid thing to do), but then neglected to consider that you would also have to subtract the extra stats of the shoulders from every other legendary (including the shoulders themselves) when calculating their % gain.

However, you did also have some inaccuracies in your analysis (which is what I was referring to when I called your analysis flawed). Your analysis used my sim numbers, so I'll just repost them here for reference:


Going from no talent to OwtP results in DPS increasing from 758.8k to 805.1k, which is the gain of 46.2k DPS (+6.1%) that you used in your analysis. However, when equipping the ring, we won't have no talent, we'd have BF, which means the baseline DPS would be 825.7k, not 758.8k, which means we'd expect the OwtP talent to be worth about 50.4k (+6.1%). And this is without considering the BF+OwtP synergy, where we'd expect OwtP to give an even larger increase than +6.1%, so even if you used 50.4k instead of 46.2k, it would still have been an underestimation. This is all using only current mechanics, I'm not talking about the effects of the 7.2.5 changes here.

Furthermore, the DPS increase from stats/talents are intimately connected to a player's gear: the better the gear, the higher the DPS increase stats/talents will give. In your calculation, you used the DPS increase of OwtP simmed from my gear then subtracted the stat weights simmed with your gear, whereas you really should have either used the stat weights simmed with my gear (since my gear is worse than yours), or used the benefit of OwtP simmed with your gear (which would have given OwtP a larger benefit). Basically, you either underestimated the effect of OwtP, or overestimated the effect of the loss of stats, both of which underestimates the effect of the ring.

You then took this incorrect logic even further when you kept the same static 46.2k DPS benefit of OwtP while simultaneously increasing the hypothetical overall DPS from 750k to 1m to arrive at your 2% figure, when really the percentage benefit of the ring wouldn't change. You might now say that the benefit of the ring would reduce when as we get better rings, which would be correct, but this is also true for all other legendaries (e.g. the % gain of the belt will reduce when you get a better belt). However, I would argue that this actually favours the ring (compared to other legendaries) as we get better gear, since stats provide their benefit additively: the more stats we have, the smaller the relative bonus each point provides (e.g. gaining 4k agility when you only have 10k agility will provide a much bigger % increase in DPS than gaining 4k agility if you already have 40k agility; and the same is true for all stats). This means the one major disadvantage of using the ring (it's low stats) will have a lower impact over time as the tier progresses, while it's effect will remain constant. Actually, I expect its effect to grow over time as our crit chance increases (on average), since Wild Call only procs on autoshot crits, meaning a higher crit chance results in a larger proportion of our damage coming from Wild Call (thereby resulting a larger % increase from OwtP).

This is a pretty long post (possibly my longest ever on mmo-c), and I haven't even advanced the discussion at all. So I'd just like to summarise my current opinion on the state of the 7.2.5 legendaries. Currently in the live game, we have three top tier legendaries: the shoulders, the belt and the bracers (if using CoF). All three of these are potentially receiving huge nerfs in 7.2.5:
- Shoulders: their effect is being made baseline. The new effect is close (maybe slightly stronger) to the effect of the Apex ring, which is currently a pretty average legendary. The shoulders also take up a tier slot.
- Belt: the loss of T19 4 pc and the further nerf of BW cooldown reduction will mean uptime on BW will drop significantly, which significantly reduces the extra focus that the belt generates. Additionally, the large nerf to KC damage will reduce the effectiveness of the main benefit of the belt (that is, to use extra Kill Commands during BW using the Killer Cobra talent).
- Bracers: these rely on using CoF to be competitive, a trinket from Nighthold. Blizzard have made their intent clear that they want us using ToS trinkets, so if we end up replacing CoF, the bracers will lose a lot of their value.

So all three of the top BM legendaries are potentially receiving huge nerfs. There are a couple of potential saving graces, like the T20 bonuses improving the belt, or the change to AotW improving the bracers, but whether or not this will be enough to keep them at the top is anyone's guess. At the moment, I think the waters are pretty muddy when it comes to which of the BM legendaries will be the best in 7.2.5.

[Moshots]

It will never be BiS unless Blizzard butchers 2pc NH + 4pc ToS.

More specifically it will Never be BIS with the new double talent Ring which is OPOP......

2 set+4 set is gonna fall off once you get into middle/late mythic with 935 base gear.... Hard to justify wearing 2 set that's a 2.5% dps gain over 25 ilvl in both slots But dat ring is sexy sexy.....

[Kashey]

Yay.now t20 2pc bonus move to 4pc and 20%=>15%. MM too OP!)

[Shakou]

More specifically it will Never be BIS with the new double talent Ring which is OPOP......

2 set+4 set is gonna fall off once you get into middle/late mythic with 935 base gear.... Hard to justify wearing 2 set that's a 2.5% dps gain over 25 ilvl in both slots But dat ring is sexy sexy.....

2 set + 4 set isn't going to be viable at all because your stat weights are just plain going to suck trying to make it work no matter the combination, compared to using the 4 best tier 20 pieces and the very best available off set gloves and legs. It might be something that players do because they already have the gear for it, otherwise, no. It absolutely won't be something players strive for and the numbers will settle that debate before it even starts.

That being said I don't need to sim to realize that the BM ring is going to be pretty phenomenal. Why? Because the shoulders are not going to be. The chest is not going to be (literally have to swap out the best tier 20 pieces to even use them), and the boots and apex are both shitty. So maybe you're using bracers+COF and belt until you get the ring. And then you would use either bracers or belt with the new ring, which to be honest is essentially a great trade off for losing t19 set bonuses, it functions in the same manner by buffing our bestial wrath and increasing it's uptime, I'd say it's an extremely safe bet that you won't have a better option than choosing the ring + belt or bracers.

Although it's hilarious that people are hyping it now because they literally just swapped around what talent you would take 100% of the time with that ring equipped, when previously it's only issue was stats.

[Khrux]

Finally got a CoF last night, so I'm basically ready for ToS now. Have every possible legendary that drops for BM with a CoF to pair with bracers. The painful part is needing to upgrade the leggos to 970 and which ones to do first, plus praying for the new Ring next and not the fucking BM chest.

[Guzrud]

2 set + 4 set isn't going to be viable at all because your stat weights are just plain going to suck trying to make it work no matter the combination, compared to using the 4 best tier 20 pieces and the very best available off set gloves and legs. It might be something that players do because they already have the gear for it, otherwise, no. It absolutely won't be something players strive for and the numbers will settle that debate before it even starts.

That being said I don't need to sim to realize that the BM ring is going to be pretty phenomenal. Why? Because the shoulders are not going to be. The chest is not going to be (literally have to swap out the best tier 20 pieces to even use them), and the boots and apex are both shitty. So maybe you're using bracers+COF and belt until you get the ring. And then you would use either bracers or belt with the new ring, which to be honest is essentially a great trade off for losing t19 set bonuses, it functions in the same manner by buffing our bestial wrath and increasing it's uptime, I'd say it's an extremely safe bet that you won't have a better option than choosing the ring + belt or bracers.

Although it's hilarious that people are hyping it now because they literally just swapped around what talent you would take 100% of the time with that ring equipped, when previously it's only issue was stats.

I find it very unlikely that a ring that at IL 940 already has 1100+ fewer stats than other legendary items is going to be "phenomenal". Having the extra talent will be good but the value of One with the Pack is essentially going to be cut in almost half due to our four piece being gone and the base being nerfed from 15 seconds to 12 seconds. We are basically going from a 23 second CDR to a 12 seconds CDR in ToS for DB/DF.

As I have mentioned previously if they increase the stat budget on this item there is a great chance it could be our BiS for ToS. That said with the current stat allocation so out of touch with other legendary items that it is going to be very hard for it to compete with other legendaries. I am not at home currently but I will get on the PTR and get the exact number but IIRC the stat differential on say Apex and the new ring at 940 IL is ~1300 stats.

What everyone is missing is that while the Rings Legendary affix could be better than say Apex Claw you have to consider that if you replaced the apex class you would be losing ~30,000 dps before you even considered the legendary affix. Thus the rings affix would have to be 30k dps better than the Apex Claw to just break even with it.

At the end of the day the sims will tell the whole story but it is my strong belief that in its current iteration with the huge disparity in stats on the ring it will be very hard for it to even compete with Roots of Shaladrasill. Now before you go all crazy on that statement you should sim that out as well. Since the stat budget on that item is actually much higher due to it not being a throughput legendary and the fact that it is a high stat piece to begin with it already competes and beats Apex Claw in some situations depending on your itemization.

Actually just simmed this with my gear

IL 915

Apex/Belt/Four set - 967972
Roots/Belt/Four set - 975880

Now you can see that convential wisdom and reasoning would never think that roots were better than Apex. The statistical advantage of Roots with no throughput effect is still superior to the Apex claw for me and my gear that could change per individual and your current gear but this is just an example of how just looking at the Affix of the legendary and proclaming it to be the best without doing a real statistical analysis of what equiping it actually does is just conjecture.

[Shakou]

I find it very unlikely that a ring that at IL 940 already has 1100+ fewer stats than other legendary items is going to be "phenomenal".

I find it very unlikely that the ring is going to have 1100 fewer secondary stats. http://www.wowhead.com/news=264186/n...in-patch-7-2-5

These are obviously a work in progress. The current 970 version of The Huntermaster's Soul has less stats than 910 versions of other leggo rings. Some of the other legendary rings have nearly twice the stats, while the Paladin ring still only has 384 crit/haste/mastery.

Clearly not a thing people should be actually concerned about.

Having the extra talent will be good but the value of One with the Pack is essentially going to be cut in almost half due to our four piece being gone

Well that's fine that you think that but it's wrong, and you can test that on live right now actually and see how much value One With the Pack most certainly does not have with the Legendary Shoulders and T19 4 piece, the effect is that you have a ton of excess focus you never spend and extra df/db procs that overlap when you don't need to refresh.

So no actually, losing 4 piece t 19 would not be lowering the value of One with the Pack, if anything it increases it ( additionally it increases the value of Crit).

I mean this really is not very complicated.

You can either get some kind of bestial wrath uptime that is somewhat similar to live now but not quite, or you can not do that but believe you're somehow getting more bang for your buck out of your bestial wrath windows because sims.

Sims are a starting point not an end point.

- - - Updated - - -

For what it is worth, I am having my best results on PTR right now using 2 piece t19 (gloves+legs) and 4 piece t20, with Foci and COF, and the new ring + COTW.

My bestial wrath uptime ranges from better than live to only slightly slower downtime between bestial wrath. There are times when I have no bestial wrath stacks and get 3 chain wild call procs in a row, which never happens on live but happens fairly frequently enough on PTR right now.

The main difference between live and PTR stat wise for me, is that I have 5% more crit, 4% less haste, 7% less mastery and about 2k more agility. Overall gear set up does result in incredibly strong bestial wrath phases which are a lot more frequent than you'd think. Opener with lust is pretty insane.

Just to give you some frame of reference, in my bis gear on live I can maintain about 920k dps virtually indefinitely on the raid target dummy, here I am doing about 950k. 908 equipped.

I'm going to see how it is with same legs and a better stat set up and also need to see it in a real pve environment, but it feels fine. Certainly does not feel like much of a loss to drop 2 piece though, it's just best pieces in my bags atm.

[Guzrud]

Ok so I wanted to do a bunch of sims with the PTR version of simcraft to get some good data on what we have been speaking about. New full disclaimer here obviously this is just the PTR and the most current info that we have at this time and is all subject to change but I would imagine we would not see a ton of major changes at this point.

So first I wanted to establish a baseline for the new ring and how that would impact our dps. I made a sample profile of a player in full 920 gear and ToS 4 set and then simmed out every combo of legendaries and ToS trinkets. The data shows that at equal IL the CoF is still really really good for us. We were really looking to get a good idea of how the legendary combos would work for us with the new ring.



So some interesting things here. With the current trinkets it looks like as soon as you can get a Engine of Eradication and a Tarnished Sentinel Medallion IL upgrade you are safe to switch off of Foci and CoF. Obviously if you are using Call of the Wild as your current setup CoF will be worth a few more IL but you can see that the value of Tarnished is ~0.5% less at equal IL. So it looks like we can go to ToS trinkets pretty quickly without worrying about to much on that front. The really interesting thing about this data is that it shows that Ring/Mantle is really the best combo if you are going to use the ring. Looks like you have have a 98%+ uptime on the Mantle buff playing with the ring giving you more procs which would make sense. You can see however where all the combos are at in terms of dps.

Now for the second set of sims that I did we took the ring out and looked at all of the other combos that we available to us.(Ok not all of them I just went with the ones I thought had at least half a shot of competing.



Now I must admit I did not expect the data to be this close because the ring while it is behind 4 combos, it is still very close to the top setup. It is really only ~1% behind the top setup which is very very close. That is really the difference in a couple trinket procs over the course of a long fight. 1% is 1% but I think they got really close on the stat allocation here actually if they raised it much it would be absolutely the BiS. Would only have to be ~600-650 total stats and it would be BiS.

After these two sets I started thinking about your 2 set statement and so I wanted to do an analysis of how many IL the 2 set would be worth in terms of DPS. I was absolutely floored by the results.



This is done with all 920 gear including 920 T19 2 set(Gloves and Cloak) I wanted to see at equal IL what the value of the 2 set would be. Then I took the IL on the 2 pieces of T19 down until I got to the break even point of the best setup without 2 set. It appears that the 2 set is worth 40 IL per piece or 80 total IL. It was actually just a smidge under 80 more like 79.4 but we can just say 80 for ease. So what that means is that if you have a 920 cloak and a 920 set of hands you can effectively use 880 T19 in those two slots and it is a dps wash. If you are lucky enough to have 900-925 pieces they will be a really great value in terms of your dps.

I do think there are some nice choices here depending on the fight and what you are trying to accomplish while you are progressing through tough content. Honestly you could use a ton of combos to suit different needs. You could really mix and match a ton of legendaries to handle different type of priority add iterations and cheesing mechanics more often with CotW. From this data it looks like we are not longer really confined to a "set" of two bis legendaries as a ton of combos will yield very similar results. We are honestly talking about a ~2.9% spread between my best and worst setup here which is pretty amazing when you think about the parity in our choices.

Also losing four set makes us go from 59.02% uptime on BW with the ring to 52.07% uptime on BW without it. You are getting 150% more procs yet you are losing 7% uptime losing four set absolutely lowers the value of DF and thus lowers the value of OWtP.

[Dracodraco]

Quick question, your pictures etc are broken; Did you try to sim Cloak+legs as well to compare to gloves?
New tier legs, however, has pretty bad stats (haste+vers), while the T19 legs have crit+mastery. It seems pretty much like a given that we'll use the cloak (Mastery+Vers vs Haste+crit, and the lowest amount of stat budget = open and shut case), but I'd be interested in seeing if the gloves or the legs become the better T19 piece to use. Personally rooting for legs, as I've got a 915 version of them (and a 915+socket cloak that'll basically last me till forever).

[Guzrud]

Quick question, your pictures etc are broken; Did you try to sim Cloak+legs as well to compare to gloves?
New tier legs, however, has pretty bad stats (haste+vers), while the T19 legs have crit+mastery. It seems pretty much like a given that we'll use the cloak (Mastery+Vers vs Haste+crit, and the lowest amount of stat budget = open and shut case), but I'd be interested in seeing if the gloves or the legs become the better T19 piece to use. Personally rooting for legs, as I've got a 915 version of them (and a 915+socket cloak that'll basically last me till forever).

Looks like the best is Cloak/Helm by a very small margin and that could change depending on your particular stat weights. I would say as long as you went Cloak + Something you should be ok.