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  1. #201
    I don't care about lower tiers of raiders getting high illvl loot. I just hate when I kill a mythic boss for the first time and none of it is a upgrade. Feels real bad.I also hate that non titanforged loot is garbage or feels that way .I feel like a way of upgrading your gear with a currency would be nice.Atleast for me gear is my main motivation to raid.I don't think you can tell me that my reasons to raid are wrong .I'm just stating my feelings toward the current gearing of legion. It just feels wrong.


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  2. #202
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyorkbourne View Post
    I will agree however, it doesn't demean the achievement of actually killing the boss.
    Isn't that really the point of the game and gear is only a means to that end?
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  3. #203
    I personally don't have a problem with the way gear works currently but I do see how it can annoy people to a degree. You have Mythic guilds running LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic each week in the hope of getting titanforged gear which can proc to be higher than Mythic gear itself (of course this is their own personal choice though). I do think it can be a bit unfortunate to kill a Mythic boss and have a piece of loot drop which is not an upgrade because you have a LFR titanforged of that piece for example.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    No it doesn't. That's just bullshit. If your self-esteem really hinges on whether or not other people have gear that has a similar item level to yours, that's your problem.
    That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. You can't play an online mmorpg and pretend gear doesn't matter. People like to show that they're better. I know being well geared=/=being good, but it does to the blind eye. That feeling you got when you saw a warrior decked out in full Heroic Tier 10 with Shadowmourne equipped bladestorming everyone to their knees infront of Org, that "Wow, I wanna be like him one day" feeling? You don't get that anymore. Because gear has become irrelevant.

    Proccing a 925 titanforged item from LFR, no matter how fucking rare it is, devalues that sentiment even further. It needs to stop. It's a matter of principle.

  5. #205
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    The only people this really bothers are those with fragile little egos. Actual Mythic raiders, those that clear it before LFR is even released, don't give a shit. The rest of you are just playing catch up because you're not that good. And then you have to try limit those that are even a step below you to try feel better about yourselves. It's quite sad, honestly, to place so much worth on a game and its pixels.
    I'm a casual and getting ezy gear invalidates content I should be doing

    next expansion they can mail me heroic level gear so I don't even have to think about lfr/normal/even heroalmost /mythic + anymore. I mean right now its already zergable due to ez overgearing
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Jakisuaki View Post
    That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. You can't play an online mmorpg and pretend gear doesn't matter.
    Gears matters. To me. It helps me to progress. What you have does not make my game any better or worse. So why should I care what you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakisuaki View Post
    People like to show that they're better. I know being well geared=/=being good, but it does to the blind eye. That feeling you got when you saw a warrior decked out in full Heroic Tier 10 with Shadowmourne equipped bladestorming everyone to their knees infront of Org, that "Wow, I wanna be like him one day" feeling? You don't get that anymore. Because gear has become irrelevant.
    That is just proving the point Darsithis made. Your enjoyment seems to hinge not what the game has to offer, but how people perceive your status in the game.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    No it doesn't. That's just bullshit. If your self-esteem really hinges on whether or not other people have gear that has a similar item level to yours, that's your problem.
    I don't care if people have similar gear to me if they did content that justifies that reward. Why should a heroic raider be able to get a piece of gear the same as or higher than mine that I got from Mythic? What did they do to deserve that reward? The answer is they didn't do anything to deserve such a reward, so why is it possible? How is that fair to people doing harder content? We all pay to play the game, so the only thing that should determine what you have, what you get, is what you do in the game. Anything else is not fair to those who care enough to do their best to not suck.

    This also doesn't even touch other issues titanforging causes, such as diminishing and blurring the reward structure, power creep issues, raid/dungeon balance and tuning, gearing and itemization issues.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Thats bullshit and you know it.

    The inflation in the numbers was the exact reason why Blizzard HAD to increase the damage and health of bosses in mythic NH to tune them to the unexpected increase in ilvl inflation.


    My guild runs an alt heroic raid every week, and guess what the average ilvl of them are? yeah 910+ if that isnt fucking stupid then i dont know what is.
    that bullshit and you know it

    blizzard did it because idiots on this forums complained how easy EN was because first they spammed >500 mythic + before it even opened overgearing the f... out of it.

    so no wonder blizzard got pissed and flipped them the finger with Mythic NH tuning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sephurik View Post
    Why should a heroic raider be able to get a piece of gear the same as or higher than mine that I got from Mythic?
    because its a computer game and all what both of you get is bunch of pixels

    how bad ones life must be if his ego depends on couple of pixels and how low his selfesteem must be

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Isn't that really the point of the game and gear is only a means to that end?

    Kind of. Gear is, of course, just a tool to kill a boss.

    It is however, nice to become more powerful after you kill the final boss and then find the rekilling of content get easier. Unfortunately, Gul'dan drops the best trinkets for numerous classes and some high relics, but relics/trinkets from earlier bosses or heroic can titanforge and by the time GD mythic died, I think we'd killed GD hc at least 10 times. Between the kills, bonus rolls (sometimes 3+ on GD a week because rekills in pugs for roll) most people went in to GD mythic in my guild with mythic GD base trinkets and relics. Of course this means that unless the mythic loot, of which there is a large loot table, war-titanforges, it's mostly minor upgrades.

    As said, that is the primary objective of the game. It just erodes the sense of character/content progression. It's why unless you look at speed kills, most bosses have taken quite a while for the average kill speed to improve, because it's taken numerous clears and boss kills to really improve your character and dps, compared to BRF and HFC mythic farming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    that bullshit and you know it

    blizzard did it because idiots on this forums complained how easy EN was because first they spammed >500 mythic + before it even opened overgearing the f... out of it.

    so no wonder blizzard got pissed and flipped them the finger with Mythic NH tuning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I didn't do many M+ before EN mythic opened personally and it was horrifically under-tuned. Take away the world first race. Ignore that it got cleared in one day. Even then, the number of guilds that got so far in within the first week was a clear indicator that they messed up. They wanted it to be another Highmaul, but it wasn't because they undertuned bosses horrifically, made it so you could gimmick fights like Cenarius within 3 weeks of opening and frankly, hadn't tested the content properly.

    People who say "this content is too easy and i'm not having fun" aren't idiots. They're people who want to play the game, rather than tear open wet paper bags and call it 'raiding'. Also gear ilvl was capped before EN released so I doubt many people ran 500 mythic + in 2 weeks from EN release to numerous guilds clearing the content. Most of them spent the time in the actual raid.

    Mythic NH tuning was dead on, tbh. That's the right kind of difficulty. The only thing they should have done was increase the difficulty of Krosus/Tich mythic to better stagger the progress between 7/10 and Star Augur, Elisande and Gul'dan.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyorkbourne View Post
    People who say "this content is too easy and i'm not having fun" aren't idiots. They're people who want to play the game, rather than tear open wet paper bags and call it 'raiding'. Also gear ilvl was capped before EN released so I doubt many people ran 500 mythic + in 2 weeks from EN release to numerous guilds clearing the content. Most of them spent the time in the actual raid.
    No. But that is a different issue. It is about tunning to the difficulty at the right gear level and skill level such that most people will find it enjoyable. Those who find it a bit too difficult will, hopefully, be better geared to improve their chance of beating an encounter.

    I have had similar experience with certain bosses in the past. Some bosses were relatively easy for my guild that we were able to beat within one or two attempts for the first time while others took much more.

    In the past, Blizzard introduced a gradual buff to help those guilds at the lower end of progression to help them complete the raid. This happened in ICC. As I recall, even the world first kill for LK was done with the 5% buff. Raganros in FL was also considered one of the hardest boss. Even more then DW in DS, although some consider Spine to have the hardest part of DS.

    Tunning is difficult. Personally, I think Blizzard should be brave and overtune raids at the start and then adjust it lower depending on what their data shows in terms of people clearing a boss. It is easier to lower a difficult of a boss than to raise it.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    No. But that is a different issue. It is about tunning to the difficulty at the right gear level and skill level such that most people will find it enjoyable. Those who find it a bit too difficult will, hopefully, be better geared to improve their chance of beating an encounter.

    I have had similar experience with certain bosses in the past. Some bosses were relatively easy for my guild that we were able to beat within one or two attempts for the first time while others took much more.

    In the past, Blizzard introduced a gradual buff to help those guilds at the lower end of progression to help them complete the raid. This happened in ICC. As I recall, even the world first kill for LK was done with the 5% buff. Raganros in FL was also considered one of the hardest boss. Even more then DW in DS, although some consider Spine to have the hardest part of DS.

    Tunning is difficult. Personally, I think Blizzard should be brave and overtune raids at the start and then adjust it lower depending on what their data shows in terms of people clearing a boss. It is easier to lower a difficult of a boss than to raise it.

    That's the point of this whole thing though. The tuning. Previously, a difficulty was based around people being geared from the difficulty below. While artifact traits are another factor in this now, I think the reason tuning is so difficult is that gear is less linear now. That you can upgrade an 890 to 925 in 1 upgrade if you get a lucky proc, must make boss tuning rather difficult since they can't be certain what ilvl people will be going in to the content with.

    I raided through late TBC to current (except DS->ToT) and it's always felt... smooth, in terms of progressing from one raid or difficulty to the next, because Blizzard could always roughly gauge what sort of gear people would go in to the content with. I currently have 913 ilvl. There are people in my guild between 910 and 920, that's a tremendous level of variation considering we've progressed NH from start to finish and cleared the raid 9+ times.

    I just feel like this is a fairly valid argument to consider capping Titanforge gear based on the difficulty it drops from, to enable smoother raid progress.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    No. But that is a different issue. It is about tunning to the difficulty at the right gear level and skill level such that most people will find it enjoyable. Those who find it a bit too difficult will, hopefully, be better geared to improve their chance of beating an encounter.

    I have had similar experience with certain bosses in the past. Some bosses were relatively easy for my guild that we were able to beat within one or two attempts for the first time while others took much more.

    In the past, Blizzard introduced a gradual buff to help those guilds at the lower end of progression to help them complete the raid. This happened in ICC. As I recall, even the world first kill for LK was done with the 5% buff. Raganros in FL was also considered one of the hardest boss. Even more then DW in DS, although some consider Spine to have the hardest part of DS.

    Tunning is difficult. Personally, I think Blizzard should be brave and overtune raids at the start and then adjust it lower depending on what their data shows in terms of people clearing a boss. It is easier to lower a difficult of a boss than to raise it.
    The titanforging mechanism is their way of gradually nerfing content without explicitly nerfing it. If you can't do boss X, you run the previous bosses until you have enough -forged gear to overwhelm it.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyorkbourne View Post
    People who say "this content is too easy and i'm not having fun" aren't idiots.
    idiots ? maybe not - but inability to connect the fact that they play this game for past 14 year with the "easiness" of content is astonishing

    i would still call them idiots just for not seeing that.

    ofc game is easy for them - thing is no game ever shoudl be tuned around people having 10 + years experience in there - thats retarded decision from dev team and big part of reason why they lost so many subs in last coupel of years.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    idiots ? maybe not - but inability to connect the fact that they play this game for past 14 year with the "easiness" of content is astonishing

    i would still call them idiots just for not seeing that.

    ofc game is easy for them - thing is no game ever shoudl be tuned around people having 10 + years experience in there - thats retarded decision from dev team and big part of reason why they lost so many subs in last coupel of years.
    I'll be honest with you, having raided since TBC, I can tell you most of that holds no bearing that I can see for current raids. Characters, bosses and mechanics have changed so dramatically. When I say tuned/balanced, please understand that I mean on the basis of gear and artifacts.

    The problem with EN wasn't just the general "Oh, this is EZ LUL". It was that;

    - Boss health felt low. DPS requirements outside of Ursoc were fairly lax.
    - There was a lack of personal responsibility on most bosses.
    - It was the first raid and while the first raid of an expansion needs to be welcoming, this was a bit too much so.
    - The difficulty between the first and last boss barely changed, except Cenarius which could be 3 tank zerg'd.

    With my third and fourth point, notice how many guilds disbanded in ToV and NH? All these guilds came along from heroic HFC and they were suddenly able to clear a mythic raid. A lot fo them just swept through it, so when it came to a difficult wall like Guarm or Helya, people just threw in the towel. Guilds disbanded and thousands of raiders who were in these guilds lost weeks of progression trying to find new guilds.

    I'm not saying there's anything wrong with EN being easy, but it wasn't just easy by a veteran raiders perspective. It was horribly undertuned for gear and artifact traits.

    Also, what content do you feel was tuned around "you have to have played for 10 years and be a master"?

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Isn't that really the point of the game and gear is only a means to that end?
    Yes, gear is a tool, but it is also meant to be a reward for completing hard content. Titanforging breaks that relationship between difficulty and reward.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The titanforging mechanism is their way of gradually nerfing content without explicitly nerfing it. If you can't do boss X, you run the previous bosses until you have enough -forged gear to overwhelm it.
    That's a fucking garbage way of doing it, though. Actual nerfs or item upgrades worked fine in the past, making that "nerf" completely random means it's not going to kick in at the same time for everybody, which makes luck during progress more of a factor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    idiots ? maybe not - but inability to connect the fact that they play this game for past 14 year with the "easiness" of content is astonishing

    i would still call them idiots just for not seeing that.

    ofc game is easy for them - thing is no game ever shoudl be tuned around people having 10 + years experience in there - thats retarded decision from dev team and big part of reason why they lost so many subs in last coupel of years.
    It has nothing to do with experience. EN's numbers were just too low, there were very few mechanics that you could fuck up badly enough to cause a wipe(wipes required multiple people to fuck up pretty badly, otherwise you could easily recover). I mean shit, the final boss of EN had 1 mechanic that you had to worry about(entering the dream properly), all the other ones were completely irrelevant and easy to recover from mistakes on. On our first kill we had a tank die at 45% or so(with no rez available cos some other clowns killed themselves as well) and it was not a problem at all.
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  16. #216
    For me it really doesn't matter. I dont really hold my item level over other people in some sort of I am better than you type of way. Sure some kid in LFR might have gotten insanely lucky and gotten all the forged / gemmed gear maxed out and out item level me but I have my doubts he will be out playing me. Which is really where I judge a player of a game. How well do they play it and are they strange, odd, smelly, jerks, or whatever. Not what do they have within the game.

  17. #217
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Yes, gear is a tool, but it is also meant to be a reward for completing hard content. Titanforging breaks that relationship between difficulty and reward.
    So, do you even want the availability of good gear to non-mythic raiders to really be a tool. What I quoted leans towards no. In a larger sense that only limits mythic raiding. In addition to the social barriers towards getting into the club non-mythic raiders have an even more difficult time getting a few pieces of gear which might help them get a foot in the door. That limits the population which is fine if you like exclusivity but is a long-term drag on getting more people into it so that pugs and recruiting are even slightly easier.

    It's a choice that players make and there's no right answer. Blizzard wants to give people incentives to play. Gear is the reward of choice in the game for many and a qualifier for moving up to higher levels of play. Blocking them out to preserve a sense of entitlement based on "I did harder things" will have consequences.

    Again, no right or wrong answer though. But it's not black-and-white either. Keeping people out means the raiding community loses something too.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  18. #218
    I'm actually in favor of this, but not for the reason most people are thinking.

    Doing this allows blizzard to tune mythic bosses for anything other then basicly gearcap, which is what they have to do now. This allows guilds progressing to get an edge the longer progression takes, which I think is a good thing.

  19. #219
    Immortal Zelk's Avatar
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    Mythic shouldn't titanforge, it should be the same ilvl as the titanforged cap.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    So, do you even want the availability of good gear to non-mythic raiders to really be a tool. What I quoted leans towards no. In a larger sense that only limits mythic raiding. In addition to the social barriers towards getting into the club non-mythic raiders have an even more difficult time getting a few pieces of gear which might help them get a foot in the door. That limits the population which is fine if you like exclusivity but is a long-term drag on getting more people into it so that pugs and recruiting are even slightly easier.

    It's a choice that players make and there's no right answer. Blizzard wants to give people incentives to play. Gear is the reward of choice in the game for many and a qualifier for moving up to higher levels of play. Blocking them out to preserve a sense of entitlement based on "I did harder things" will have consequences.

    Again, no right or wrong answer though. But it's not black-and-white either. Keeping people out means the raiding community loses something too.
    No, I don't want people to be rewarded with gear that's better than what the activity they got it from warrants. When it comes to applying to a guild, what gear you have barely mattered in the past(because bad gear could be fixed in a few weeks of running farm content with the guild), that was not what kept people out of joining a better guild. PuGs shouldn't even be considered because they'll always have absurd requirements, regardless of how rewards are structured.
    And that sense of entitlement is entirely justified, because that's how a proper reward structure looks. Do hard content -> be entitled to rewards appropriate for that hard content.

    Of course it's not black and white, but suggesting people are "kept out of raiding" because they don't get absurd gear from easy activities is just straight up idiotic. If people want to get into raiding, there are ways of doing it and always have been. Otherwise nobody would be raiding.
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