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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Firon View Post
    Elemental is propped up pretty hard by Aluriel and Tichondrius though where Tichondrius is almost pure pad. Take them out and things would be much worse. Elemental is decent at bursting down adds (provided they sync with SK) but single target is tragic, we have the lowest boss dps overall.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...metric=bossdps

    Nighthold design seems to favour elemental yet it still does quite poorly, tomb is looking more single target oriented and unless we see some nice tuning changes we will definitely be in that bottom spot.
    Sure, I'm not saying they're amazing or anything. And I wasn't disputing that they're poor at single target. I play shadow, a spec that's one above you on the single target only list and below you in the overall. But adds matter. To remove them is simply biasing the results to favor the outcome you want to show. As an easy example shadow gains insanity off adds. Removing that damage doesn't remove the insanity that's gained by having VT on them, which is improving our single target by improving our void form uptime and getting us back into void form quicker. You can call it padding and meaningless all you want but those adds need to be killed and they do impact single target damage in meaningful ways that aren't simple to just remove the damage done value and have a realistic and complete picture of the total single target damage done. Unless of course you want to pretend that in this particular tier you are the worst damage dealer of all when you are in fact not.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by niil945 View Post
    Granted, I'm certainly not going to say ele is fine, but you're being hyperbolic to a degree that detracts from your argument. There are 4 other specs that don't perform as well as Elemental in Nighthold. You are not on the bottom. You're not too far off by any means, but you are not the bottom.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11
    To be fair, the two specs that are ranked below Elemental are Destro Warlock and Unholy DK, who have alternative specs to play that are ranked 1 and 2 respectively in the same list.

    Shamans have a choice between the spec that is ranked third from the bottom, or fifth from the bottom if they want to DPS.

    Monks and Priests also have a lot to complain about based on this rankings, with only one (underperforming) DPS spec each.

  3. #23
    Blademaster Kyruze's Avatar
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    I keep wanting to be upset at blizz about Ele but I maybe need to look at myself. I should know by now that ele should be off the table competitively but I love it so much... I feel like even just a lightning bolt buff could be enough for me but it's so hard to tell at this point.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by IronRabbit View Post
    To be fair, the two specs that are ranked below Elemental are Destro Warlock and Unholy DK, who have alternative specs to play that are ranked 1 and 2 respectively in the same list.

    Shamans have a choice between the spec that is ranked third from the bottom, or fifth from the bottom if they want to DPS.

    Monks and Priests also have a lot to complain about based on this rankings, with only one (underperforming) DPS spec each.
    Yep, that was kinda my point. I completely understand venting about how terrible your chosen spec performs. I understand not having any realistic choices to respec to. Now imagine that you're also useless in Mythic+ unless it's bolstering, fortified, and a 10 or higher, otherwise you have to get carried because everyone else has on demand burst aoe. Imagine it's nigh impossible to get into a mythic+ because everyone knows your only dps spec is terrible at them. Imagine the only way to do any real aoe in old content is to spec Holy and spam Holy Nova because our aoe is so horrible on low health mobs. Elemental is performing poorly without a doubt, but saying it's the worst dps spec in the game right now is just antagonizing to other people that are doing worse all around. And, yes, 2 of those specs may have alternative specs that are performing well, but again that's just a cop out to try to narrow the scope of the discussion so that elemental looks worse just like trying to say "well only look at boss damage!" Right now we have ww, destro, shadow, unholy, enhancement, and elemental that need some serious numbers love. Even if we only bring them up halfway to the top, that's still at least a flat 5% damage boost across the board to ww and it just increases as it goes down the list. Of those, shadow needs much more to make it competitive in mythic+ content. I can't speak for other specs as I don't raid on them or know them well but I'm sure they all need much more than a simple numbers tuning.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by niil945 View Post
    Sure, I'm not saying they're amazing or anything. And I wasn't disputing that they're poor at single target. I play shadow, a spec that's one above you on the single target only list and below you in the overall. But adds matter. To remove them is simply biasing the results to favor the outcome you want to show. As an easy example shadow gains insanity off adds. Removing that damage doesn't remove the insanity that's gained by having VT on them, which is improving our single target by improving our void form uptime and getting us back into void form quicker. You can call it padding and meaningless all you want but those adds need to be killed and they do impact single target damage in meaningful ways that aren't simple to just remove the damage done value and have a realistic and complete picture of the total single target damage done. Unless of course you want to pretend that in this particular tier you are the worst damage dealer of all when you are in fact not.
    Yeah adds are important, which is why NH is favourable for ele since it has a lot of adds. And yes on Tichondrius cleaving onto the blobs is a dps increase which is why ele does it and can get away with it, but in an ideal world we'd be able to remove the damage done to blobs while they are under the boss from the rankings list in the same way that ele and shadow will dot/cleave the bosses on Botanist but that damage gets wiped on logs. I raised the boss damage since tomb is more single target focused, so while we aren't quite bottom dps now I think we will be in tomb if nothing changes.

    I would argue though that if shadow and elemental were equal on damage shadow would be more valuable since that damage is skewed to the execute range where it is in general more useful and they also bring a mass dispel and even a healing cooldown with the helm. Either way arguing about who is dead last and who is just 2nd-3rd last is a bit futile since we could all do with buffs.

    My main alt right now is a shadowpriest so I definitely feel your pain with mythic+, it's nice that elemental is amazing there I admit.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by niil945 View Post
    Granted, I'm certainly not going to say ele is fine, but you're being hyperbolic to a degree that detracts from your argument. There are 4 other specs that don't perform as well as Elemental in Nighthold. You are not on the bottom. You're not too far off by any means, but you are not the bottom.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11
    Not sure if you can go back to actual progression logs, but I remember ele performing just fine at the time. Now that its on farm, it has fallen down the charts though.

  7. #27
    Sky is falling threads like mushrooms, around 20 specs (according to communities) are "the worst", for many reasons. Even affli locks, which are getting a bit nerfed, cry because MG will be "useless", and they cant burts prio targets. One says "my spec is useless because I cant do burst AoE, and thats the only thing that matters", second "my aoe is JUST fine (fkn overpowered) but ST is lacking because I saw on warcraftlogs that melee are 50k ahead of my ranged"

    And now we have elemental shaman (my main), which is great for AoE burst, AoE sustained, Cleave, okish for sustained ST, and imo quite good for prio ST (ele blast, lava burst (2x with echo), earth shock at 125 ms, stormkeeper x3 , ascendance and fire ele on top of that (no the best cooldowns but could be worse (enha says hi))). Now with t20, we will be good for spread cleave! And at last F Elemental will be good for more than ST.

    Ele is not the best, but its faaar from worst. I was doing a lot of researches, and what I noticed, every spec have its flaws. Ele shammy is one of these specs that is so flexible, can do any type of dmg and after a lil ST buff we would be very solid!

    Also every spec have their tier bonus changed, often from powerful ones to quite depressing, so you cant look at one spec and say we dont get any buffs, because other specs might get nerfed. Hopefuly

  8. #28
    Your subjective opinion on how elemental is just fine is exactly what you're trying to debunk with your post - a personal, subjective opinion with no facts or data to back it up.
    Looking at the spec from a perspective of an average player, who raids with people around that skill level, ele might seem like a passable spec.
    If you, however, look (and know how to look - the most important part) at the data and can utilize this spec to its fullest potential, it becomes quite clear that it is severly lacking in the most fundamental requirements that a dps spec should meet for progression raiding.
    Which are:
    1) ability to deal damage while executing mechanics (nay)
    2) sustained single target damage with little reliance on rng (nay)
    3) good defensive cooldowns and/or useful raid cooldowns (lust doesn't count - sorry, just bring another mage/resto shaman) and/or immunities (nay)

    Burst and sustained aoe cannot be the one and only niche for a dps spec, because due to class homogenization, there are numerous specs presently in the game, which are capable of matching or outperforming elemental in these tasks. They also bring one, 2 or all 3 of the points stated above, thus choosing your roster for progression raiding becomes a non-brainer.

  9. #29
    Herald of the Titans gypsybob's Avatar
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    Elemental shaman just always feels utter shite.

    Why would any raid leader in their right mind choose else over a Mage, warlock or hunter for ranged dps? It's a complete joke, decent aoe doesn't compensate for the piss poor single target.
    Me not that kind of Orc!

  10. #30
    DK and Warlock and other class that has multiple spec, they are all either melee or either all range.
    Meaning raid leader would feel a lot more secure to let them change, or at most time doesn't even care if they do switch for a better DPS performance.

    Class like shaman, druid are much difference. Raid leader are nervous that a range class assigned to soak mechanics can only increase DPS by changing into melee, and still behind rogue / dk / warrior / demon hunter.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Devore View Post
    Your subjective opinion on how elemental is just fine is exactly what you're trying to debunk with your post - a personal, subjective opinion with no facts or data to back it up.
    Looking at the spec from a perspective of an average player, who raids with people around that skill level, ele might seem like a passable spec.
    If you, however, look (and know how to look - the most important part) at the data and can utilize this spec to its fullest potential, it becomes quite clear that it is severly lacking in the most fundamental requirements that a dps spec should meet for progression raiding.
    Which are:
    1) ability to deal damage while executing mechanics (nay)
    2) sustained single target damage with little reliance on rng (nay)
    3) good defensive cooldowns and/or useful raid cooldowns (lust doesn't count - sorry, just bring another mage/resto shaman) and/or immunities (nay)

    Burst and sustained aoe cannot be the one and only niche for a dps spec, because due to class homogenization, there are numerous specs presently in the game, which are capable of matching or outperforming elemental in these tasks. They also bring one, 2 or all 3 of the points stated above, thus choosing your roster for progression raiding becomes a non-brainer.
    I dont say we dont have problems, but someone can also cry that melee dps doesnt have option to dps while doing mechanics. If you think that ranged dps have option to constantly use their spells while moving you are wrong. There are some exceptions, like Fire Mage (utter shit in ST). Moonkin is considered a mobile spec, because of instant Starsurge and 2 dots ... We dont have more, but I would rather cast fast spells than interrupt Full Moon, cause of movement.

    I dont say we are perfect, probably we need some Single Target buffs, top theorycrafters say that, so it can be considered as a fact. What I'm trying to say, fokin doomsayers infested WoW community, and I can see "Rant Threads" in every Class Forum. According to forums, most specs lies in a fukin pit dying.

    Anyway, mechanicaly we are better than many specs, we just need some number adjustment. Not sure Blizzard is capable of balance everything, because it was always a problem.

  12. #32
    I dont say we dont have problems, but someone can also cry that melee dps doesnt have option to dps while doing mechanics. If you think that ranged dps have option to constantly use their spells while moving you are wrong. There are some exceptions, like Fire Mage (utter shit in ST). Moonkin is considered a mobile spec, because of instant Starsurge and 2 dots ... We dont have more, but I would rather cast fast spells than interrupt Full Moon, cause of movement.
    You blissfully omitted the most mobile spec in the game atm, which is BM hunter. Affli lock also suffers a lot less from movement, so does a properly played shadow priest. Do you notice the correlation here? Most ranged specs _mechanically have an option to execute at least part of their rotation under movement_. Ele shaman can: refresh/apply flame shock (which is situational, as you need 20 maelstrom and at least 1 charge of ef), use up lava surge procs (which again, are random and not something you can plan around), cast an earth shock if at the ms threshold to do so (do I really need to explain how this is YET AGAIN not something you can plan for?).

    I dont say we are perfect, probably we need some Single Target buffs, top theorycrafters say that, so it can be considered as a fact. What I'm trying to say, fokin doomsayers infested WoW community, and I can see "Rant Threads" in every Class Forum. According to forums, most specs lies in a fukin pit dying.
    Just because the majority of the 'please buff x,y,z' threads are total bollocks, doesn't mean that you should dismiss or classify all feedback as such. As far as I'm concerned the vast majority of threads concerning elemental's future in 7.2.5 are well written, well argued and level headed. If you disagree - feel free to prove everyone otherwise - with data, not subjective drivel or generalization.

    Anyway, mechanicaly we are better than many specs, we just need some number adjustment. Not sure Blizzard is capable of balance everything, because it was always a problem.
    Sorry, but you are incorrect. The problem with the spec as it stands at the moment, both in ST and AOE, is mechanical in nature. There is too much rng tied into our spells and personally I don't think it can be balanced properly without first addressing those issues. Small numerical buffs to some of our spells won't suddenly alleviate our dps variance between pulls, lack of static overload procs when needed, back to back non crit earth shocks, etc.
    This is a good read if you want to educate yourself how we are not fine mechanically:
    https://www.stormearthandlava.com/rngsus/

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Devore View Post
    You blissfully omitted the most mobile spec in the game atm, which is BM hunter. Affli lock also suffers a lot less from movement, so does a properly played shadow priest. Do you notice the correlation here? Most ranged specs _mechanically have an option to execute at least part of their rotation under movement_. Ele shaman can: refresh/apply flame shock (which is situational, as you need 20 maelstrom and at least 1 charge of ef), use up lava surge procs (which again, are random and not something you can plan around), cast an earth shock if at the ms threshold to do so (do I really need to explain how this is YET AGAIN not something you can plan for?).



    Just because the majority of the 'please buff x,y,z' threads are total bollocks, doesn't mean that you should dismiss or classify all feedback as such. As far as I'm concerned the vast majority of threads concerning elemental's future in 7.2.5 are well written, well argued and level headed. If you disagree - feel free to prove everyone otherwise - with data, not subjective drivel or generalization.



    Sorry, but you are incorrect. The problem with the spec as it stands at the moment, both in ST and AOE, is mechanical in nature. There is too much rng tied into our spells and personally I don't think it can be balanced properly without first addressing those issues. Small numerical buffs to some of our spells won't suddenly alleviate our dps variance between pulls, lack of static overload procs when needed, back to back non crit earth shocks, etc.
    This is a good read if you want to educate yourself how we are not fine mechanically:
    https://www.stormearthandlava.com/rngsus/

    RNG problem is not large problem. Other specs also have large RNG problem.
    The important thing is this. Ele's overall performance is too low.
    Ele can only compete with other specs when the RNG is maximized.

    I can not understand people who are obsessed to RNG.
    I also think that RNG can make games fun. This is just a personal taste.
    Of course, I think it is problem, but it is not a fundamental problem.
    DEV overestimates ele. Otherwise, Blizzard is not interested in ele. this is biggest problem

    Ele is just weak and useless so ele is not used by the top raid team.
    You think I'm pessimistic, look at the data for years. Ele was useless at all.
    I have had to give up ele for years, and the next tier will be the same. This makes me frustrated.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Knifttar View Post
    Not sure if you can go back to actual progression logs, but I remember ele performing just fine at the time. Now that its on farm, it has fallen down the charts though.
    How can you remember that when the guilds that were interested in the world first race did not have an elemental shaman in their core group? There is a reason for that.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Ele man View Post
    RNG problem is not large problem. Other specs also have large RNG problem.
    The important thing is this. Ele's overall performance is too low.
    Ele can only compete with other specs when the RNG is maximized.

    I can not understand people who are obsessed to RNG.
    I also think that RNG can make games fun. This is just a personal taste.
    Of course, I think it is problem, but it is not a fundamental problem.
    DEV overestimates ele. Otherwise, Blizzard is not interested in ele. this is biggest problem

    Ele is just weak and useless so ele is not used by the top raid team.
    You think I'm pessimistic, look at the data for years. Ele was useless at all.
    I have had to give up ele for years, and the next tier will be the same. This makes me frustrated.
    Do you suffer from split personality disorder? I'm asking because with this post you're essentially disproving your own 'points' within each sentence.
    If you want to have a discussion with me, try to make your post coherent.

  16. #36
    Item - Shaman T20 Elemental 2P Bonus While Fire Elemental is active, your Flame Shock deals 75% 20% increased damage over time and always critically strikes.

    RIP elemental, thats it boys, nails in the coffin, if you're playing elemental in ToS, could you explain why you hate yourself and the other 19 people in the raid? and why you're not really trying to progress and waste 20 peoples time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonqopura View Post
    How can you remember that when the guilds that were interested in the world first race did not have an elemental shaman in their core group? There is a reason for that.
    he can also ask one of the worlds greatest guilds paragon why they never had a single elemental shaman in all of their many world firsts of many tiers.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Ele man View Post
    RNG problem is not large problem. Other specs also have large RNG problem.
    Yeeeeah... because having the largest variance in damage based off what procs and what doesn't proc is not a problem.... Even in Mythic+, I can tell when I'm getting procs and when I'm not. I go from some shitbox being carried to a dps god from pull to pull, and that's based regardless of CDs.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by UberpwN View Post
    Anyway, mechanicaly we are better than many specs, we just need some number adjustment. Not sure Blizzard is capable of balance everything, because it was always a problem.
    I'll agree with you that doomsayers are annoying as hell, but I think that's the only thing I can agree on. cba quoting your entire positivity ridden happiness post, but jeeeeesus how far from the truth could that be? At a higher raiding level, elemental is honestly just useless beyond words. The absolute SINGLE ONLY THING we have going for us is Stormkeeper CLs for cleave-burst. And even that is so unreliable it physically hurts. Elemental is a memespec, and for mythic progress where overgearing and nerfs haven't kicked in yet, I'd kick the elemental for another dps any day.

    AND I HAVE TO SAY: You saying that we are good for target swapping to priority targets, LOL REALLY?????????????????
    You know, LvB is generally kept on cd to prevent munching resets, and EB should always be cast on cd. Top that with having to FS the target to cast LvBs (if you have any charges) and hoping it's gonna overload. What about EB? It has to CRIT and OVERLOAD to do any dmg, otherwise enjoy your 700k single hit lul. Sure, you can save LvB charges and EB for shit like that, but nobody trying to play elemental at a higher level would do that.

    After having played elemental throughout NH I'm just bored as hell with the spec. Everything feels bad about it.
    I particularly hate the rng; let's list it, shall we?

    - Overloads are rng
    - Crits are rng, and we can't stack crit because of our derpy shit mastery and double buff from EB. It's fun casting 5 LBs which don't overload nor crit, had this happen too many times to count when priority swapping ex. Empowered Eye of Guldan
    - EB needs to proc an overload and not the same buff
    - Whispers in the Dark needs to proc in Asc a few seconds in
    - Pray that you don't proc PotM on the first LvB only to see it time out before you can get your Stormkeeper buffed LBs out
    - EQ does insane dmg - if you stack crit and haste, BUT OH WAIT WE NEED 12k MASTERY TO FUNCTION
    - And therefore we need to pray for shitty Lightning-thing procs from EQ, which have to crit to do anything at all - and least it's a whopping 5 % CHANCE YAY
    - Got targeted by a mechanic? Silence yourself with Ghost Wolf because you can't cast anything other than a noodle ES or drop your totems. Refreshing FS without Elemental Focus and 20MS etc is just adding salt to the wound, meaning we can't use our "movement spell" for movement

    I. am. so. fucking. tired. of this piece of shit rng spec it has become. I miss being able to cast something faster than a 1.8 LB/CL/LvB/EB. I HATE that crit is our best stat, but 40-50% of our ST dmg doesn't even scale with it. Asc is shit, movement is shit, everything else is rng, and even so the dmg isn't there. We're squishy as fuck, bring very little utility and none unique, our interrupt has a 30y range yay. For mythic raiding, elemental is by far the most useless caster spec. Such a shame.

    Call this doomsaying if you will. Enjoy elemental if you will (and I hope you do, that's what we're supposed to be doing yeah?)
    But elemental is just trash. Meh. Fuck this spec. Zero synergy between talents, secondaries, no flexibility, blizzard doesn't know what they want to do with it. I'd rather dps as a holy priest that continue playing elemental.



    OHHH and look at how they nerfed our tier set. Pretty damn strong on fights with multiple targets for an extended period of time. And they nerf it. As if we even needed more dmg on anything other than ST. It's just sad beyond words how clueless they are. Or how little they're willing to put into making the spec work.
    Last edited by Nihiel; 2017-06-01 at 05:11 AM.

  19. #39
    Thank god i quit playing 2 weeks ago, they are making my main weaker with with every week, i couldnt handle it if i were active right now.

    thanks blizz

  20. #40
    Item - Shaman T20 Elemental 2P Bonus While Storm Elemental / Fire Elemental is active, your Flame Shock deals 75% -> 20% (new) increased damage over time and always critically strikes.

    Item - Shaman T20 Elemental 4P Bonus Reduce the cooldown of Storm Elemental / Fire Elemental by 1.0 / 2.0 sec when Flame Shock periodic damage deals a critical strike. This effect may occur once every 1.0 sec.


    Hahah, this is actually so shitty its funny. They nerfed ele to the ground? T20 have been utter shit from day 1 and they nerf them even further?

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