How would you evolve Azeroth?

[Zulkhan]

Getting raised as a sentient undead places you there as well it seems.

It's not entirely clear at this point. We didn't have proof that all undead went there before and Thoras' words cause even more confusion as the living can end up in that dimension as well. Maybe being living or dead makes no difference whatsoever.

IIrc wow was originally not supposed to have factions at all then they threw them thoeather because they wanted to drive pvp harder. The factions and need for balances severely impacts the story.

Warcraft is made of factions, it was from the very beginning. WC1, WC2 and BtDP were all about orcs and humans killing each other. WC3 expanded the concept to four factions by adding Night Elves and Scourge but for simplicity's sake they found a way in WoW to implent these factions respectively into the more iconic Alliance and Horde.

In the end Warcraft has always been and always will be a game about opposing factions, is what lies at its core. Sure, there's the whole PvP thing but this expansion is proof that regardless of PvP, Blizzard always tries to fuel faction conflict within the story itself. The only problem with that is how bad they grew in handling it, struggling to make said conflict credible and the motivations behind it grounded.

[Ilikegreenfire]

It's not entirely clear at this point. We didn't have proof that all undead went there before and Thoras' words cause even more confusion as the living can end up in that dimension as well. Maybe being living or dead makes no difference whatsoever.



Warcraft is made of factions, it was from the very beginning. WC1, WC2 and BtDP were all about orcs and humans killing each other. WC3 expanded the concept to four factions by adding Night Elves and Scourge but for simplicity's sake they found a way in WoW to implent these factions respectively into the more iconic Alliance and Horde.

In the end Warcraft has always been and always will be a game about opposing factions, is what lies at its core. Sure, there's the whole PvP thing but this expansion is proof that regardless of PvP, Blizzard always tries to fuel faction conflict within the story itself. The only problem with that is how bad they grew in handling it, struggling to make said conflict credible and the motivations behind it grounded.

There is a thread talking about sylvie raising a dark ranger and damning in her soul right in the quest text.

Perhapse zombies and the like a spared this fate but forsaken and other higher level undead don't seem to be..

At the end of warcraft 3 theramore and orgrimar are alies having fought off a legion invasion, hell jaina even helped kill her dad for thrall. The night elves were still rather pissy but had still just worked with both.

Instead of leaving the powers free to make alliences when it suited them thus having a more fluid and interesting plot in development they relized they wanted 2 balenced main factions, sacrifice story and realism.

The fact 3 races that are heavly rooted in ancestor and spirit worship did nothing when a member of their faction started damning souls and raising dead is an example of this.

- - - Updated - - -

Yea, potential families and or former kinsmen hellbent on seeing you die, Stop crying about the blight when it isnt even the worse thing a person can do in this universe.

Humans aren't going to resettle the legion because most of the forsaken are at peace already.




you're right, a game at its core about war and orcs vs humans originally didn't plan to have factions.

Still ignoring the whole damning them to an afterlife of eternal torment thing.

Ya it was orcs vs humans you know untill jaina helped kill her pops for thrall and her alience with orgrimar.

[Friendlyimmolation]

There is a thread talking about sylvie raising a dark ranger and damning in her soul right in the quest text.

Perhapse zombies and the like a spared this fate but forsaken and other higher level undead don't seem to be..

At the end of warcraft 3 theramore and orgrimar are alies having fought off a legion invasion, hell jaina even helped kill her dad for thrall. The night elves were still rather pissy but had still just worked with both.

Instead of leaving the powers free to make alliences when it suited them thus having a more fluid and interesting plot in development they relized they wanted 2 balenced main factions, sacrifice story and realism.

The fact 3 races that are heavly rooted in ancestor and spirit worship did nothing when a member of their faction started damning souls and raising dead is an example of this.

- - - Updated - - -



Still ignoring the whole damning them to an afterlife of eternal torment thing.

Ya it was orcs vs humans you know untill jaina helped kill her pops for thrall and her alience with orgrimar.

The thread in question has no confirmation on when the resurrection took place.


Holy crap man how detached from wow lore are you? Yes there was peace and it broke apart, that's how the story goes in WARcraft.

The horde races for the most part give zero shits about what the forsaken do to the alliance, it only becomes a problem to them if she did it to the horde.

You don't have any actual proof that being undead automatically damns you, and just because you don't like it, doesn't remove factions from the heart of the game.

[Ilikegreenfire]

The thread in question has no confirmation on when the resurrection took place.


Holy crap man how detached from wow lore are you? Yes there was peace and it broke apart, that's how the story goes in WARcraft.

The horde races for the most part give zero shits about what the forsaken do to the alliance, it only becomes a problem to them if she did it to the horde.

You don't have any actual proof that being undead automatically damns you, and just because you don't like it, doesn't remove factions from the heart of the game.

Getting raised through necromancy is getting raised through necromancy, Lich king or Silvie it doesn't matter, Forsaken and Undead highelves are both high level sentient undead, if one gets their souls damned upon being raised their is no reason the other wouldn't as well.

Patricide is pretty far to go for an alliance man. It makes no sense for Jaina to break it off after that especially when they where her next door neighbor, the only reason is "whelp we gotta have humans vs orcs for pvp guys" so lets shit on the lore. Jaina and Theramore should have stayed neural if not Thrall aligned but that would have been too complicated. Night elves should have stayed neutral isolationists, forsaken should have been left to do their own thing. Stromwind and Iornforge left up to their own devices perhaps feuding with Orgrimmar and Theramore.

There is nothing wrong with Tolls Orcs and Tauren working with forsaken pre cata, but once they start using necromancy it should have been an issue, granted that was being driven by Garrosh, and after he was deposed the forsaken were pretty much the strongest player left, but someone should have taken issue with it. Once they start raising the dead of the enemy and of their own people whats to stop them doing it to their allies, Silvie even joked with lor'themar about this. It should be a point of friction.

[Deleted]

I really like these changes, I hope they do stuff like this when they're considering subraces.

[Mehrunes]

They were fine up until after wrath, vanilla-wrath dark avengers seeking to bring down the being that damned them. Cata on they start rezing and damning souls left and right and deploying methods the lich king would use but they are suddenly ok with it cause Sylvanis.

All undead factions were using Scourge-like methods. Even in WotLK.

[Ilikegreenfire]

All undead factions were using Scourge-like methods. Even in WotLK.

Using them aginst the lich king or demons is diffrent than using them aginst southshore

[Friendlyimmolation]

Using them aginst the lich king or demons is diffrent than using them aginst southshore

South shore was the alliances foothold into lordaeron, it had to go. Also blight isn't really scourge tactics at all.

[Mehrunes]

Using them aginst the lich king or demons is diffrent than using them aginst southshore

Ebon Blade used them against the Scarlet Onslaught as well. Or the Argent Crusade.

[SinR]

with a Thunder Stone.

[Mehrunes]

Doesn't matter your still damn them to an afterlife of eternal torment by raising them.

Speculation. The picture is muddy as hell right now.

Southshore, ring a bell? use that shit against the real baddies, not your peoples former kinsmen and potential family's.

Hostile to the Forsaken since vanilla, if not earlier. Main Alliance base in the region and the source of financing Alliance imperialism in the region. Despite years of conflict, destroyed only after Alliance started a world war. Forsaken are basically ultra Hitler here /s

There is a thread talking about sylvie raising a dark ranger and damning in her soul right in the quest text.

"To her service". Not "to hell" or "an afterlife of eternal torment". Besides, there have been multiple instances of undead going to some better place.

At the end of warcraft 3 theramore and orgrimar are alies having fought off a legion invasion, hell jaina even helped kill her dad for thrall. The night elves were still rather pissy but had still just worked with both.

And the rest of Alliance didn't participate in Battle for Mount Hyjal. Dwarves and especially Stormwind weren't particularly cool with Orcs.

Instead of leaving the powers free to make alliences when it suited them thus having a more fluid and interesting plot in development they relized they wanted 2 balenced main factions, sacrifice story and realism.

But the powers were the Alliance and the Horde. And they made alliance that suited them prior to Vanilla. And how does this fluid allegiance to the main powers work in game? The races that stop being allied to them stop being playable, or what?

The fact 3 races that are heavly rooted in ancestor and spirit worship did nothing when a member of their faction started damning souls and raising dead is an example of this.

And they should have done something, because?

Still ignoring the whole damning them to an afterlife of eternal torment thing.

Because it's still speculation.

Ya it was orcs vs humans you know untill jaina helped kill her pops for thrall and her alience with orgrimar.

And there was still a remainder of Kul'tiras army stranded in Durotar that kept being hostile. Jaina's own Norwatch didn't really care about her desires either and kept being antagonistic.

Getting raised through necromancy is getting raised through necromancy, Lich king or Silvie it doesn't matter, Forsaken and Undead highelves are both high level sentient undead, if one gets their souls damned upon being raised their is no reason the other wouldn't as well.

And they get damned upon being raised, because?

Patricide is pretty far to go for an alliance man. It makes no sense for Jaina to break it off after that especially when they where her next door neighbor, the only reason is "whelp we gotta have humans vs orcs for pvp guys" so lets shit on the lore. Jaina and Theramore should have stayed neural if not Thrall aligned but that would have been too complicated. Night elves should have stayed neutral isolationists, forsaken should have been left to do their own thing. Stromwind and Iornforge left up to their own devices perhaps feuding with Orgrimmar and Theramore.

In story Theramore did stay mostly neutral until Cata. Admission of the Forsaken into the Horde was a strategic choice for both. Most likely the same for Night Elves and Alliance.

There is nothing wrong with Tolls Orcs and Tauren working with forsaken pre cata, but once they start using necromancy it should have been an issue, granted that was being driven by Garrosh, and after he was deposed the forsaken were pretty much the strongest player left, but someone should have taken issue with it. Once they start raising the dead of the enemy and of their own people whats to stop them doing it to their allies, Silvie even joked with lor'themar about this. It should be a point of friction.

And yet the Horde welcomed the Ebon Blade with open arms. When have they ever raised any strong concerns with necromancy as a whole?

[Ilikegreenfire]

Im not going to bother responding to each quote of like of like 20 post's but ill condense it to them most important.

The dark ranger specifically mentions her soul not just damning her but damning her soul then there is the whole Crusader Bridenbrad thing.
They were specifically worried about his soul, if it was just about turning into an enslaved forsaken Tirion would have mercy killed and turned him to ash him self.

A'dal says: In life, Bridenbrad was the bearer of great deeds. Now, in passing, he shall taste only paradise.
A'dal says: The light does not abandon its champions.

I am glad that you were able to save him from undeath. With A'dal's blessing, he will know no evil in his afterlife.
We shall take heart in his shining example and in your selflessness. Thank you for all that you have done.

Theramore was neutral shifting alliance if anything it should have been neutral shifting horde. Hell ThrallXJaina interracial orc sex producing Medan 2.0 would have been better than the whole Goaell shit we got.

Jaina could have provided lumber fish, and crock meat. Thrall water, boar, and scorpidd meat ect. Reasonable source of lumber means no fighting with nightelves means less pvp. Orgrimmar the Echo Isles a Theramore could have formed a massive zone of power in central kalimdor.

Like i said Frosaken precata was fine, so were ebon blade as they were fighting baddies and not actively raising people as sentient undead, at least back then.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Im not going to bother responding to each quote of like of like 20 post's but ill condense it to them most important.

The dark ranger specifically mentions her soul not just damning her but damning her soul then there is the whole Crusader Bridenbrad thing.
They were specifically worried about his soul, if it was just about turning into an enslaved forsaken Tirion would have mercy killed and turned him to ash him self.

Characters are not omniscient. They voice what they believe to be true, not what is ultimately true.

Theramore was neutral shifting alliance if anything it should have been neutral shifting horde. Hell ThrallXJaina interracial orc sex producing Medan 2.0 would have been better than the whole Goaell shit we got.

Jaina could have provided lumber fish, and crock meat. Thrall water, boar, and scorpidd meat ect. Reasonable source of lumber means no fighting with nightelves means less pvp. Orgrimmar the Echo Isles a Theramore could have formed a massive zone of power in central kalimdor.

Jaina flat out says that they are a military Alliance stronghold in tides of war. And that they needed to help the Night elves. She Could say she was netural, but that didn't make it so, especially with her troops already attacking the Barrens.

And where the hell would jaina get the lumber from? you don't give swamp trees for city building, unless you want the average orc to hate you all the more.

Like i said Frosaken precata was fine, so were ebon blade as they were fighting baddies and not actively raising people as sentient undead, at least back then.

This goes into a whole another level of hilarity. The Ebon blade have always been worse in the methods than the forsaken. is raising someone mindless and bound to their corpse somehow better than what the forsaken do? What the hell?

[Ilikegreenfire]

Characters are not omniscient. They voice what they believe to be true, not what is ultimately true.







Jaina flat out says that they are a military Alliance stronghold in tides of war. And that they needed to help the Night elves. She Could say she was netural, but that didn't make it so, especially with her troops already attacking the Barrens.

And where the hell would jaina get the lumber from? you don't give swamp trees for city building, unless you want the average orc to hate you all the more.



This goes into a whole another level of hilarity. The Ebon blade have always been worse in the methods than the forsaken. is raising someone mindless and bound to their corpse somehow better than what the forsaken do? What the hell?

Uhhh A'dal is the closest thing to omnipotent especially regarding souls and the light we have seen in wow.

I know they made Theramore alliance, but after Warcraft 3 it really should have been horde or neutral. A group of horde based humans would have added some real spice to the game.

Quick google of swamp trees

Swamp Cypress
A common tree in the southeastern United States, swamp cypress is probably what is most often meant by "swamp wood." As might be expected from a tree that thrives in festering, moist conditions, the wood is very resistant to rot, leading to its use in boat-building, fencing, building construction and garden boxes. Its pleasing appearance also leads to the use of swamp cypress in cabinetry, flooring and furniture-making.

Swamp Oak
Swamp oak's most famous qualities are its density and strength. In fact, the thick oak planking and superstructure of the USS Constitution, an early-19th-century American warship, proved so robust in combat that the vessel earned the nickname "Old Ironsides." The wood is tougher than other types of oak, but is also knottier, limiting its value. Nonetheless, swamp oak is used in construction beams and boards, cabinetry, furniture, flooring, interior fittings and veneers.

Sounds perfect for rough and tumble Orgrimmar. Better than having a constant border skirmish with the nightelves at any rate.

I always figured the mindless hordes of ghouls and the like the ebon blade used don't have souls, they were just reanimated corpses, hence the mindlessness, thus i never had an issue with them.

Even if they did the ebon blade is 3rd party, fighting the true threats not getting involved in petty faction squabbles, any soul they damned probably deserved it.

[Grimo]

If you were granted control of lore, how would you progress the lore of already established characters and the world in general.

For me, I would have Silvermoon City completely rebuilt with Lor'themar taking the mantle of King and Lady Liadrin taking the mantle of Queen with the Convocation of Silvermoon fully reestablished. I would want to show the cultural evolution of the sin'dorei with a massive divide between the elite and a poorer class. The elite being what you expect to see from belfs (snarky, arrogant and entirely focused on physical appearance) with fez-toting hozen servants in tow.

For night elves I would also show some evolution with the highborne becoming almost completely integrated due to the harsh circumstances of the Legion's invasion. Darnassus growing into a slightly larger city. Auberdine being rebuilt and Pearlfin jinyu refugees being permitted by Tyrande or Malfurion to build little fishing buildings under the circumstance they assist the native Sentinels with threats like naga as well as helping controlling unstable storms.

Gilneas being retaken and rebuilt and Stonemaul (Horde) ogres moving to the ruins of Theramore and building a Highmaul-esque Horde trading port.

Have Rokhan assume chieftain-ship of both the Darkspear and Horde-aligned Shatterspear tribe. The Echo Isles undergoing a little urbanization and economic prosperity.

Both dwarves and tauren undergoing a sort of multi-ethnic (?) explosion. The Dark Irons and Wildhammers becoming much more established (and accepted) in Khaz Modan. Meanwhile the Icemist taunka almost completely move into Mulgore (with a village in Winterspring). A small yaungol and Highmountain tauren population also being spread out across Thunderbluff.

The Tushui and Huojin capital being inter-facial on the Wandering Isle. The gnomes and goblins retaking Gnomeragon and Kezan respectively (with all the hijnks you would expect from them).

The Exodar floating above Azuremyst with draenei villages being spread all across the Isles. Complete with farms, children running around, shrines of Naaru and Light worship and free-roaming herds of tame elekk and talbuk imported from AU Draenor.

Stormwind and Orgrimmar staying relatively unchanged. The conditions in Westfall and the Barrens improving (the Great Divide becoming a giant river).

I could give two shits about the Forsaken...

Yes to everything except to Liadrin and Lor'themar as queen. I think it would be awesome if Lor'themar did away with the kingship and started the first real republic on Azeroth, with a Rome-like set up.

That's damn harsh for the Forsaken, but here's my take:

The Forsaken's minds have decayed at an alarmingly fast rate. Their famous will slips. The remaining Forsaken constantly battle to keep the zombie hordes of the rotbrains in check.Her grasp slipping, the Banshee Queen loses her hold on Gilneas, and the Worgen return, a great tree flowering in the square outside the Cathedral to mark their respect for the night elves and their druidic heritage. Scarlet Monastery is now a full-blown cathedral of the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow - as their will slips, they turn every more desperately to their shadowy religion. The Argent Crusade patrol the Balwark ever-more wearily, but soon they will have to take decisive action...

[sheggaro]

Well the 'biggest Legion invasion ever' would actually be noticable, outside 5 zones. Constant attacks everywhere, demons everywhere, shit on (green) fire, known npcs lying dead, reasons to go to places like Westfall to stop an invasion like during the pre-event, that was fantastic.

[Mehrunes]

Im not going to bother responding to each quote of like of like 20 post's but ill condense it to them most important.

The dark ranger specifically mentions her soul not just damning her but damning her soul then there is the whole Crusader Bridenbrad thing.
They were specifically worried about his soul, if it was just about turning into an enslaved forsaken Tirion would have mercy killed and turned him to ash him self.

And she still mentions that soul being damned into servitude and not "hell" or "an afterlife of eternal torment". You continuing to gloss that over doesn't give any merit to your argument. It only makes it disingenuous. And what is with you anti-Forsaken geniuses and your inexplicable desire to butcher the Bridenbrad questline to suit your moronic narratives? At no point is his soul mentioned. Especially from Tirion. His fate after he died as an undead even less so. You even shot yourself in the foot with the quotes you chose to cherrypick. "Save him from undeath" Not "save him from the fate that would await him after undeath". Jesus fucking christ, this is Tripzzz level sad.

Theramore was neutral shifting alliance if anything it should have been neutral shifting horde. Hell ThrallXJaina interracial orc sex producing Medan 2.0 would have been better than the whole Goaell shit we got.

Why? Because of the rising human-Orc tensions thanks to formerly-Theramore-aligned Kul'tiras marines and still-Theramore-aligned Northwatch?

Jaina could have provided lumber fish, and crock meat. Thrall water, boar, and scorpidd meat ect. Reasonable source of lumber means no fighting with nightelves means less pvp. Orgrimmar the Echo Isles a Theramore could have formed a massive zone of power in central kalimdor.

Horde had outposts in Dustwallow. They had no need for Theramore to provide these things.

Like i said Frosaken precata was fine, so were ebon blade as they were fighting baddies and not actively raising people as sentient undead, at least back then.

Instead the Ebon Blade was raising people as mindless slaves. So much better

Uhhh A'dal is the closest thing to omnipotent especially regarding souls and the light we have seen in wow.

It's swell then that this near-omnipotent (so omnipotent he didn't even know Kerrilldank-heika's destiny as our Lord and Savior despite her being the other most important character in Outland and despite other Naaru being aware of said destiny) didn't say what you want it to have said.

Even if they did the ebon blade is 3rd party, fighting the true threats not getting involved in petty faction squabbles, any soul they damned probably deserved it.

I wonder if there are any limits to your dishonest squirming. Probably not.

[Zulkhan]

There is a thread talking about sylvie raising a dark ranger and damning in her soul right in the quest text.

Damning her soul into servitude while no mentioning whatsoever the relevance of the afterlife.

Perhapse zombies and the like a spared this fate but forsaken and other higher level undead don't seem to be..

Baseless claim.

At the end of warcraft 3 theramore and orgrimar are alies having fought off a legion invasion, hell jaina even helped kill her dad for thrall. The night elves were still rather pissy but had still just worked with both.

You spoke by yourself the issues and somehow managed to miss the point. "Allies having fought off a Legion invasion" well guess what, there was no Legion invasion anymore and so no further reasons that indefinitely ensured the stability of such tenuous pact. Not even Medivh mentions "peace" among the mortal races, just how they managed to put differences aside to defeat a common enemy. With that enemy gone however, all the "triviliaties" are going to matter again.

And heck, you mentioned Jaina letting Thrall to kill her dad yet ignored that events like those have still consequences. Never heard of "diplomatic incidents"? When such incidents happen you may try to damage control but sometimes the damage cannot be contained, especially on the long run. And Daelin's actions (which he managed to push forth even after he died, by instructing his second in command to keep warring with the Horde) had indeed consequences on the views orcs in general had on humans and their trustworthiness, views Garrosh was later able to capitalize upon to justify his war.

Instead of leaving the powers free to make alliences when it suited them thus having a more fluid and interesting plot in development they relized they wanted 2 balenced main factions, sacrifice story and realism.

So Horde and Alliance begrugdingly fought against a common foe, allies of the second attempted to wipe out the first and in WoW these factions should have been disappeared because? Horde and Alliance had no reason to disappear whatsoever after the events of WC3 and the structure of a MMORPG clearly favored the idea of players choosing to side with one or the other.

The fact 3 races that are heavly rooted in ancestor and spirit worship did nothing when a member of their faction started damning souls and raising dead is an example of this.

Which souls Sylvanas damned after she joined the Horde? And the raised dead can choose to die again, you know. If they want to stay undead I don't think anyone has a right to deny them the choice, nor anyone should truly care (and of course no one does).

[Techno-Druid]

Yes to everything except to Liadrin and Lor'themar as queen. I think it would be awesome if Lor'themar did away with the kingship and started the first real republic on Azeroth, with a Rome-like set up.

Isn't/wasn't Gnomeregan a republic where the High Tinker was elected? Don't pay that much attention to gnome lore so I might be wrong.

[Grimo]

Isn't/wasn't Gnomeregan a republic where the High Tinker was elected? Don't pay that much attention to gnome lore so I might be wrong.

You may be right. Although I think it might have been some kind of technocracy - as in, the most expert in their field is elected High Tinker.