New Ontario law allows govt to take children if parents oppose their ‘gender identity

[ItachiZaku]

Canada been snatching kids since forever though.

And really, kids don't know what the fuck they is at ages when they could still be snatched. 16 year old don't know shit.

[Ghostpanther]

I am against this type of government intervention. If the child's life is being threatened by a lack of medical care, then that is a different scenario. If the child wants to choose a different gender, they of course should have that right when they become adults.

[Triggered Fridgekin]

OP referenced RT Russia Times, which is Russia's propaganda outlet.

So you quote Russia Today that states Ontario is allowing parents to take their children away over gender identity but then go on to say there's nothing in the actual bill to back up RT?

Whoops. For some reason I thought RT was for Reuters so that is an incredibly hilarious and stupid error on my part. Reuters is Reuters.

Here's a google link dump which is what I mean by "buzz articles" since it seems like a lot of the links go to questionable news outlets and is why I expressed concern over the accuracy of content within the bill when compared to what's being reported by certain outlets.

[Berengil]

What an utter load of crap.

If there's actual, physical abuse, then yes. Bury the parents under the jail.

If it's just " you can't hang out with those people or dress how you want until you're 18 and leave my house"? Tough.

@Darsithis : Really?

Think about some fundamentalist families who, when finding out their child is gay, have been known to starve or "beat the devil" out of them, or isolate them (taking their door off their room, forbidding same-sex friends). That's abuse, plain and simple.

Starve or beat them? That's physical abuse and the parents should go to jail.

Taking the door off their room? That door belongs to their parents, not them.

Forbidding same-sex friends? I distinctly remember my parents having the authority to tell me who I could and couldn't hang out with outside of school.

If you think the door thing, or parents being able to tell their children they can't be friends with somebody is abuse, you are completely out of touch.

[SidFwuff]

Why is gender identity as a construct even a thing. You are born a certain gender, and that is decided by your chromosomatic structure.

Because scientists.

An animal's genitalia and an animal's behavior don't always match- black swans are one of the more famous examples.

Sex = Physical characteristics. Genitalia.
Gender = Behavior. Role.

Many male (sex) black swans are "gay", they enter homosexual relationships, and they pair up with another male swan and steal nests with eggs in them. They then raise the eggs themselves, sitting on the nests and hatching them. The male (sex) in the gay couple that tends to the next and sits on the eggs is the female (gender).

It's confusing because both terms use male and female, so they're often used interchangeably.

The "gender is a social construct" isn't arguing that the vast majority are born as one of two sexes (male or female) but rather the roles and stereotypes associated with genders.

Look at Joan of Arc.

She was born, and she died, a female. That was her sex.

She also reportedly dressed "femininely" whenever she could. When she fought for France, she cut her hair and wore male clothing. That's gender.

She was born at the stake for assuming the male role (gender) as a female.

If you are born a man, you are a man. You can call yourself lisa, and tell everyone to do so, but it doesnt make you a woman.

That makes you transgender.

That's changing your gender- your role and behavior in society.

Of course you can blurr the lines with surgeries and hormone treatment, but unless you change your DNA you are what you are born.

That's transexual. Changing your genitalia and physical characteristics. Changing your sex.

It is rather unfortunate to have this mental illness, but playing along with mental illness is hardly a good treatment in most cases of syndromes. I guess there really is no good solution unless science finds a way to make people believe they are the gender they were born.

Infracted

And that's why this bill is protecting gender identity and expression.

"Conversion therapy" for children is a can of worms I'm not going to get into. Suffice it to say that there are arguments that it has harmed some children. For the children harmed by such attempts, they can be helped now if necessary.

[derpkitteh]

hmmm. this doesn't seem like a bad thing. gets trans kids out of a potentially abusive home, gets non-trans kids out of a potentially abusive home.

i don't really see the issue.

[SidFwuff]

What an utter load of crap.

If there's actual, physical abuse, then yes. Bury the parents under the jail.

Is spanking your eight year old daughter for fussing about wearing a dress physical abuse? What about whenever you find her playing with G.I Joes instead of barbies? How about when you yell and berate her in public because you found her picking the race car Lego set instead of the "Lego Friends" at the toy store?

Is inducing nausea and vomiting in your fifteen year old son to throw up whenever you show him pictures of two men holding hands abuse? How about inducing pain and only removing the pain when you show him pictures of men cuddling with women?

Is that abuse?

[kail]

Here's the bill:

http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bil...en&BillID=4479

It basically adds gender identity as a "protected class" for children against abusive parents.

Yep and I see zero problems with that. In fact, why not just put a simple "ALL children" on the bill? Shorter, concise and all-inclusive.

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I am against this type of government intervention. If the child's life is being threatened by a lack of medical care, then that is a different scenario. If the child wants to choose a different gender, they of course should have that right when they become adults.

Read the actual bill, OP's title is misleading. It's not going to punish a parent because they won't buy their son a Barbie doll. It will punish the parent if they abuse the child because they want to act as another gender.

[Deleted]

Because scientists.

An animal's genitalia and an animal's behavior don't always match- black swans are one of the more famous examples.

Sex = Physical characteristics. Genitalia.
Gender = Behavior. Role.

Many male (sex) black swans are "gay", they enter homosexual relationships, and they pair up with another male swan and steal nests with eggs in them. They then raise the eggs themselves, sitting on the nests and hatching them. The male (sex) in the gay couple that tends to the next and sits on the eggs is the female (gender).

It's confusing because both terms use male and female, so they're often used interchangeably.

The "gender is a social construct" isn't arguing that the vast majority are born as one of two sexes (male or female) but rather the roles and stereotypes associated with genders.

Look at Joan of Arc.

She was born, and she died, a female. That was her sex.

She also reportedly dressed "femininely" whenever she could. When she fought for France, she cut her hair and wore male clothing. That's gender.

She was born at the stake for assuming the male role (gender) as a female.



That makes you transgender.

That's changing your gender- your role and behavior in society.



That's transexual. Changing your genitalia and physical characteristics. Changing your sex.



And that's why this bill is protecting gender identity and expression.

"Conversion therapy" for children is a can of worms I'm not going to get into. Suffice it to say that there are arguments that it has harmed some children. For the children harmed by such attempts, they can be helped now if necessary.

That is if you make a distinction between the two. Not everyone acknowledge the feminist layout based on John Money's theory.
I do agree it can make it easier to talk about the cultural approach we have regarding the behavior that is typically assigned to the sexes, but in my opinion it have been taken too far, as to almost say your sex doesn't matter, and simply is a perspective issue.
The experiments with the Swedish children they wanted to call "Hen" instead of "he" and "her" tried to deny the biology, or at least make it neutral, it didnt work.

I mean, ideally sure you can differentiate, but the terms are getting abused too much by some very active feminists.

[Endus]

If the child wants to choose a different gender, they of course should have that right when they become adults.

They have that right as children, too. Their parents' wishes do not overrule the best interests of the child; this is where the law comes in.

And no, waiting till they're adult is not a reasonable alternative, with transgender kids. The hormonal shifts caused by puberty can cause some pretty serious havoc, and it's best if they can get proper treatment before puberty causes those changes.

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but in my opinion it have been taken too far, as to almost say your sex doesn't matter, and simply is a perspective issue.

Sex does matter. It's the core of the issue; sex and gender are heavily tied together, and when one's gender and sex do not line up, that's what transgender is.

Biological sex, however, is not binary, and it is not a clear divider. It is also something that can be largely be changed, with medical treatment. So acting as if someone is bound to a particular gender identity because of their current apparent biological sex, that's just abject nonsense.

[Berengil]

They have that right as children, too. Their parents' wishes do not overrule the best interests of the child; this is where the law comes in.

Not in a country that isn't beholden to hard Left whackos. Children should have a right to food & water, shelter, medical care, clothing, education, and freedom from being physically abused.

Until they're 18, how they dress and who they hang out with outside of school is their parents' business. If they want to change their name, identify as something other than what they were born as, and dress however they want, when they're 18, have at it I say.

This kind of super-SJW nonsense would never fly in the US. Court precedent and elements of federal law (not to mention state law) have been fairly clear over time that parents have wide latitude outside of providing a child's basic needs & not physically damaging them.

[Endus]

Not in a sane country that isn't beholden to hard Left whackos. Children should have a right to food & water, shelter, medical care, clothing, education, and freedom from being physically abused.

Until they're 18, how they dress and who they hang out with outside of school is their parents' business. If they want to change their name, identify as something other than what they were born as, and dress however they want, when they're 18, have at it I say.

That "medical care" and "freedom from physical abuse" bits you just admitted to completely contradict the point you're apparently trying to make.

If a Jehovah's Witness doesn't want their kid to get a blood transfusion, the government ignores that, too, for the same reasons. There comes a time when the State must step in to protect a child when their parent's behaviour puts that child at risk.

[Teraparte]

They have that right as children, too. Their parents' wishes do not overrule the best interests of the child; this is where the law comes in.

And no, waiting till they're adult is not a reasonable alternative, with transgender kids. The hormonal shifts caused by puberty can cause some pretty serious havoc, and it's best if they can get proper treatment before puberty causes those changes.

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Sex does matter. It's the core of the issue; sex and gender are heavily tied together, and when one's gender and sex do not line up, that's what transgender is.

Biological sex, however, is not binary, and it is not a clear divider. It is also something that can be largely be changed, with medical treatment. So acting as if someone is bound to a particular gender identity because of their current apparent biological sex, that's just abject nonsense.

I am a transgender woman. What you say is true in my experience. I always knew, even before my teens. Before I had a concept of all these crazy politics, feminism, and all that stuff I knew what was up. I worked to hide it, but not so much because of my parents as much as society. I grew up in the black community (Washington DC), and there is a ton of pressure there to be macho and all that jazz. So I hid it but eventually was like screw it and transitioned. With hindsight, one of my biggest mistakes in life was not telling everyone and transitioning earlier. Not because of issues with physically "passing" because I am fine in that dept, but because had I transitioned at a younger age I would have been able to navigate through life with far less problems like getting into legal trouble, having a hard time working, and finding myself in psych wards as I tried to operate within the "prison" society had set up for me.

One little funny thing I learned being trans though. Like a quirk in society. Before transition, folks are quick to tell you that you're not a man. They tell you to "man up" and one little wrong move and your manhood is called into question, and they'll tell you you're a bitch or not a "real man" or whatever. But go ahead and pop those hormones, grow boobs, get a girl name and suddenly you are the ultimate man, even down to the chromosomal level.

[PosPosPos]

Not in a country that isn't beholden to hard Left whackos. Children should have a right to food & water, shelter, medical care, clothing, education, and freedom from being physically abused.

Until they're 18, how they dress and who they hang out with outside of school is their parents' business. If they want to change their name, identify as something other than what they were born as, and dress however they want, when they're 18, have at it I say.

This would never fly in the US. Court precedent and elements of federal law (not to mention state law) have been fairly clear over time that parents have wide latitude outside of providing a child's basic needs & not physically damaging them.

Priceless to watch Trumpets living in alternative self-constructed realities talk about everyone else as "hard left whackos".

I guess if one is that far off the rails, everyone else seems off the rails by comparison.

[Berengil]

That "medical care" and "freedom from physical abuse" bits you just admitted to completely contradict the point you're apparently trying to make.

If a Jehovah's Witness doesn't want their kid to get a blood transfusion, the government ignores that, too, for the same reasons. There comes a time when the State must step in to protect a child when their parent's behaviour puts that child at risk.

There have been some cases lately where parents have been cited for failing to provide medical treatment. But honestly, " I wanna dress in girls clothes" doesn't rise to the same level of urgency/importance as some fanatic denying their child a cancer treatment, for instance.

To claim that it does just doesn't pass the giggle test. I mean seriously, the hard Left makes itself look ridiculous choosing this particular hill to die on.

In the US, it's considered a hell of a thing to intervene in the parent-child relationship outside of wildly abusive circumstances. Proposals to do so are just a third rail here.

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Priceless to watch Trumpets living in alternative self-constructed realities talk about everyone else as "hard left whackos".

I guess if one is that far off the rails, everyone else seems off the rails by comparison.

What possesses you to think I'm a Trumpet? I voted for Bernie (mainly on his economic message) and then I reluctantly voted for Clinton in the general. I think Trump's full of sht about half the time. Because I don't subscribe to this particular bit of hard Left nutbaggery means nothing. On average, I'm center Left in my voting.

I don't have an easy fix, but the idea that it's always in a child's best interest to let them start changing their physique and psyche at an age where we don't even trust them to drive, drink or make decisions about tattoos is ridiculous. These cases swing all ways you can imagine. It'd be useful to see some statistics on how many kids who feel transgendered are of the same opinion as adults.

Well said. 100% agree.

[Jayburner]

Ontario is a nanny state.

[Sesshou]

And no, waiting till they're adult is not a reasonable alternative, with transgender kids. The hormonal shifts caused by puberty can cause some pretty serious havoc, and it's best if they can get proper treatment before puberty causes those changes.

I don't think forcing anyone to wait until their 18 is the way to go, but we don't allow children to make life altering decisions on their own for a reason. If the child, the parents, and the doctor that would be giving the treatment agree that is the best course, great. A child, especially one that has yet to enter puberty, simply is not mature enough to be responsible for those types of decisions.

[Berengil]

I don't think forcing anyone to wait until their 18 is the way to go, but we don't allow children to make life altering decisions on their own for a reason. If the child, the parents, and the doctor that would be giving the treatment agree that is the best course, great. A child, especially one that has yet to enter puberty, simply is not mature enough to be responsible for those types of decisions.

Exactly. If the parents and a doctor agree with the child's inclinations, then go for it.

[SidFwuff]

That is if you make a distinction between the two. Not everyone acknowledge the feminist layout based on John Money's theory.
I do agree it can make it easier to talk about the cultural approach we have regarding the behavior that is typically assigned to the sexes, but in my opinion it have been taken too far, as to almost say your sex doesn't matter, and simply is a perspective issue.
The experiments with the Swedish children they wanted to call "Hen" instead of "he" and "her" tried to deny the biology, or at least make it neutral, it didnt work.

Not everyone acknowledges the big bang theory, carbon dating, the moon landing or that the Earth is round either.

The general populace, the scientific community, dictionaries (Oxford, Meriam-Webster etc.) and the government at large all consider sex to be physical characteristics and gender to be:

the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

I mean, ideally sure you can differentiate, but the terms are getting abused too much by some very active feminists.

So you're saying you understood the nuances between sex and gender already, but were intentionally being obtuse?

[Revi]

They have that right as children, too. Their parents' wishes do not overrule the best interests of the child; this is where the law comes in.

And no, waiting till they're adult is not a reasonable alternative, with transgender kids. The hormonal shifts caused by puberty can cause some pretty serious havoc, and it's best if they can get proper treatment before puberty causes those changes.

I've read about cases where kids/teens have wanted to start transition early and been happy. I've ready about cases where they deeply regretted. I've read about cases where they were prohibited by parents and were thankful of it once they realized they were mistaken. And I've read about cases where they were prohibited by parents and had a much harder transition later on.

I don't have an easy fix, but the idea that it's always in a child's best interest to let them start permanently and dramatically changing their physique and psyche at an age where we don't even trust them to drive, drink or make decisions about tattoos is ridiculous. These cases swing all ways you can imagine. It'd be useful to see some statistics on how many kids who feel transgendered are of the same opinion as adults.