Power Loss in 7.2.5 - Accompanying Boss Nerfs?

[l10f]

Because it's not OK to disagree with the OP based on the insane power increases everyone have received with new traits?

But the OP is not saying that people did not get power increases with the new traits. He's talking about guilds that were only able to make it to Gul'Dan thanks to the power increase they got from the new traits. It's not a debate that the new traits were a way of nerfing the bosses so the less skilled guilds could access the content. If they are allowing people to get the FoS for another week, it makes sense that it doesn't become harder for any guilds currently progressing on it. The guilds that are currently progressing on it are guilds that could not have done so without the power increases that they got with 7.2.

Yes, the fight is significantly easier with new traits, but that doesn't take away from the point that if Blizzard is allowing guilds to get the FoS for another week that it shouldn't be harder for those guilds that were only able to meet the DPS cutoffs with the boost in 7.2.

As someone else pointed out, guilds come in a full spectrum. Slight changes to the player or boss power level may only shift the cutoff for being able to kill the boss slightly in one direction, but that still means there are few guilds who suffer because of that. It should never be the case that the boss becomes even slightly more difficult to kill as long as the FoS remains and Blizzards seems to agree with that.

[Kazuchika]

"People twist my words to make irrelevant statements separate from the issue raised in the thread because they want to imply people below them are bad" the thread

Did you kill the boss? Because if you didn't this entire thing was absolutely irrelevant from the start

[Saybel]

Did you kill the boss? Because if you didn't this entire thing was absolutely irrelevant from the start

I'll report back to you in 2 hours buddy. Currently wiping on the latter part of P3.

[Alvito]

well guilds who haven't killed it yet have failed cutting edge anyways so who cares

They have until ToS goes live next week.

[KaPe]

They have until ToS goes live next week.

I wonder just how many posters in this thread failed to realize this. I'm fairly certain quite a few of them believed that OP was crying that Nighthold wasn't nerfed after it became "irrelevant" even though the FoS is still there.

Unless there will be major class buffs during the weekend, it feels pretty much the same it did before the patch. Well, Scythe hurts less for non-bear tanks, but it's a pretty minor change. Stuff dies at roughly the same rate, healing is pretty much the same, only Gul'dan has 125mln less hitpoints, big whoop. Nothing that would justify the "OP, you filthy casual scum, didn't you get enough nerfs already" style posts we had here.

[Marrilaife]

Did you kill the boss? Because if you didn't this entire thing was absolutely irrelevant from the start

I did. After ~300 wipes, mythic Gul'dan died and we got the achievement. I feel the 3% hp nerf helped, but can't say if it was necessary or we just needed few extra wipe nights to get him down.

According to wowprogress, over 70 guilds world wide got their first kill within the last 2 days (so after the patch), and the week isn't over yet. That's already 1,4k players for whom it mattered. This number might be small in the picture of the whole playerbase, but you can't call over thousand of people "no one". And this number will get a bit bigger as we get to the weekend (many guilds raid on Sunday at least in my region).

@Saybel I hope you kill it (or already did at the moment I'm writing it), for me it was a relief to finally close this chapter and get ready for TOS.

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Well, Scythe hurts less for non-bear tanks, but it's a pretty minor change.

Since I play a paladin tank the biggest question was "can we still solo it with AD now that it has a cap of 200% hp or do we need to change the tactic", and the answer was yes, you can still solo it, so we can proceed with the usual tactic we practiced for over 250+ pulls instead of having to remake it in the last week. For a boss that took many weeks of working through the phases for a guild like mine all you want is for things to stay the way you were used to.

Oh yeah, and we also found some bug with enslave demon in the last phase post-patch so we were forced to find out who of the raiders has a mage alt to deal with it...

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Nothing that would justify the "OP, you filthy casual scum, didn't you get enough nerfs already" style posts we had here.

Typical internet tough guy syndrome.

[Saybel]

@Saybel I hope you kill it (or already did at the moment I'm writing it), for me it was a relief to finally close this chapter and get ready for TOS.

Best wipe was at the Flame Crash before you enter the second Nightorb (most are either at first Nightorb or shortly after) - it dies next raid if everything goes the same as today. Many close pulls.

The 3% nerf hasn't helped - if we kill it, we would have killed it if they just decided to release 7.2.5 on next wednesday instead of this one (and we'd probably kill it without the 3% nerf assuming those conditions). But thanks for the concern, hopefully we make it on Sunday, no big deal if we don't, I appreciate the understanding/support

[Harsesis]

Simply put it would be impossible to put out class changes without messing with some group's progression. Blizzard has just decided they would rather put in the changes before the next tier so they can get live data for hotfixing and allow players to get used to their changes. This puts the game in a healthier state for the launch of the next tier at the cost of groups that are still progressing the week prior.

[Xequecal]

I wonder just how many posters in this thread failed to realize this. I'm fairly certain quite a few of them believed that OP was crying that Nighthold wasn't nerfed after it became "irrelevant" even though the FoS is still there.

Unless there will be major class buffs during the weekend, it feels pretty much the same it did before the patch. Well, Scythe hurts less for non-bear tanks, but it's a pretty minor change. Stuff dies at roughly the same rate, healing is pretty much the same, only Gul'dan has 125mln less hitpoints, big whoop. Nothing that would justify the "OP, you filthy casual scum, didn't you get enough nerfs already" style posts we had here.

The changes actually made it harder for us as we started hitting 50% during the second empowered hellfire, which is an utter nightmare as it keeps going off and you have to deal with hellfire damage on top of the bubble burst damage while getting pushed by winds.

[roahn the warlock]

I'm surprised NH hasn't gotten any sort of DMG and HP nerf.

[Deleted]

While I'm sure this isn't really relevant to many people, as a guild still progressing on Gul'dan this concerns me -

Many classes are seeing an overt power reduction in 7.2.5 as well as the majority of class 2 sets (and some 4 sets) being nerfed, harshly in some cases. If 7.2.5 is coming out next week but tomb the week after then the raid is going to be arbitrarily harder by maybe about 5% for that week, slowing down last week progress for some guilds and may even deny a few cutting edge.

My suggestion is that the bosses should have a 5% damage and health reduction placed on them for next week to make up for the set bonus nerfs (and other class nerfs) or just to not have the set bonus nerfs applied till ToS week 1 (having 7.2.5 on week 1 would make much more sense though)

You should have concordance by now, which was even buffed tremendously.

[Marrilaife]

The changes actually made it harder for us as we started hitting 50% during the second empowered hellfire, which is an utter nightmare as it keeps going off and you have to deal with hellfire damage on top of the bubble burst damage while getting pushed by winds.

For us, it allowed us to add a 5th healer which while not much necessary in p1 and p2 helped us avoid these stupid rng wipes in p3 "2 healers got stunned by a parasite and something went wrong..." like parasites living a tad bit too long or someone getting hit by the seed or the tank spirit soaker being slightly too slow or flame crash being not perfectly on the edge etc. etc. That ended up with the healers getting amazing dps % and shitty hps % but who cares about logs at least it's dead.

We had a frustrating amount of wipes in p3 due to healers being oom, healers being stunned by parasites or people getting gibbed by the parasite debuff + something else (crash, seed).

We were very close before the patch with 4 healers, we had a 3% wipe due to boss hitting 3rd vision while we had 2 people dead during the phase and no cr left.

Ofc if I compare our kill timer to a server top guild that did it this week ours was 2 mins longer so I imagine for top players this boss feels completely different.

[Drish]

The changes actually made it harder for us as we started hitting 50% during the second empowered hellfire, which is an utter nightmare as it keeps going off and you have to deal with hellfire damage on top of the bubble burst damage while getting pushed by winds.

You could always just hold off dps if you're pushing too fast.

[Simmias]

why can't players admit when they are just not good enough to get certain achievements? @Saybel your attitude is fucking hilarious, what did you honestly expect to happen here?

[KaPe]

why can't players admit when they are just not good enough to get certain achievements? @Saybel your attitude is fucking hilarious, what did you honestly expect to happen here?

Barely anyone would be get any raid achievements if we had patches that reduce character's power, while bosses remained the same.

And seeing how Gul'dan was changed... the OP was right? I wonder whose attitude was "fucking hilarious" here? Especially you, waking up several days after hotfixes went live, as if to claim they totally didn't and OP was completely wrong.

[chronia]

Barely anyone would be get any raid achievements if we had patches that reduce character's power, while bosses remained the same.

And seeing how Gul'dan was changed... the OP was right? I wonder whose attitude was "fucking hilarious" here? Especially you, waking up several days after hotfixes went live, as if to claim they totally didn't and OP was completely wrong.

I still wonder though if player power actually went down, and if these nerfs were truely needed. While i play in a Friends of friends only guild and we only dabble with Mythic so we dont have the best of rosters, the wednesday after the patch we killed the first 5 on Mythic all with record kill times (some quite significant, like 20 sec off our previous Krosus record, and also between 20 and 30 seconds off our best Spellblade time), and on thursday we managed to kill Tich quite fast also (Which was our first kill ever, best try prepatch was 18%), to me atleast it doesnt feel like our player power is any lower at all, atleast if player power should be down, we should not make record kills as a pretty casual guild. And no, we didnt use any Tank Demon hunter shenanigans or stuff like that.

[KaPe]

I still wonder though if player power actually went down, and if these nerfs were truely needed. While i play in a Friends of friends only guild and we only dabble with Mythic so we dont have the best of rosters, the wednesday after the patch we killed the first 5 on Mythic all with record kill times (some quite significant, like 20 sec off our previous Krosus record, and also between 20 and 30 seconds off our best Spellblade time), and on thursday we managed to kill Tich quite fast also (Which was our first kill ever, best try prepatch was 18%), to me atleast it doesnt feel like player power is any lower at all, atleast if player power should be down, we should not make record kills as a pretty casual guild. And no, we didnt use any Tank Demon hunter shenanigans or stuff like that.

Obviously it was nothing major like 7.0 patch, where bosses had to be nerfed by 40% or so to compensate for massive rework. However, they did nerf couple trinkets and set bonuses, if only to make sure people won't be farming them during ToS. Keep in mind that there are incoming nerfs to top perfoming specs, which will result in reduced raid dps... well, unless someone has zero locks/warriors and only fire/arcane mages + rets.

In the end, the boss got tiny adjustments which left him roughly where he was before. Players progressing on him will still have to deal with pretty much the same stuff and I really doubt they skipped right to phase 3. In other words, the thread was full of overreaction, finger pointing and mocking the supposed "unworthy players" for something Blizzard actually agreed with.

[Sierra85]

You could always just hold off dps if you're pushing too fast.

most people who havent cleared the place yet are incapable of not mashing buttons!