Elderly German Woman Fined 1,350 Euros for Sharing Anti-Immigrant Joke on Facebook

[Deleted]

I haven't seen roving gangs of people looking for them them have you? Has the reported on it yet? They usually do not as you noted, it isn't sensationalistic enough.

no, but where have been this roving gangs of people looking for this old lady ? the police got tipped off, she was easy to find, fine. it's not like they started an international search for her so they could slap her with a fine.

if someone has some way to know who wrote this without moving heaven and hell at the sime time and tells it to the police this guys will be sure to be found and get there own fines, jailtilme, whatever is deemed apropriate, which is another important factor, we don't really know what "death threats" mean in this case. Did someone send her a letter with stenciled out letters and a photo of her eviscareted dog, asking her if she wants to end up like puppy or did she get send 5 exactly the same emails from 5 different spam accounts saying "die in a fire you old hag!" ? both obviously aren't acceptable, but one would look a lot more like it was a real danger (which would warrant to ask for isp data and whatever) the other would fall more in line with "damn this random shit talkers" which still isn't acceptable, but would probably taken as serious as the woman and her "joke" meaning if you find the one responsible then fine, it was against the law, no, it is not acceptable. but no one would launch a massive scale search for this one random shit talker

[Logwyn]

Guess who else took away German citizens' right to free speech...

Hint: he was Austrian

Wilhelm I
Frederick III
Wilhelm II
Otto von Bismarck (first)
Max von Baden (last)

None of these were Austrian. I don't think.

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If we did this in the US the government would be rich we might even be able to skip paying taxes for a year.

We'd loose due to all the cost of court cases all over the country for trying to protect 1st Amendment rights.

[Deleted]

Any country where people are not free to speak their minds, even if I am disgusted by what they have to say, is not truly free.

Apparently protecting people's fee fees is more important.

Who needs absolute freedom if it does more harm than good?

[Deleted]

Wtf does this have to do with my post. I can't even.

Oh lord... I was trying to politely explain something, and in comes another arrogant "wtf is this". You know, your little world and perception is not absolute. Which might be why this whole argument here does not make sense to you.

I thought, you were misunderstanding her statement. You tried to understand it in a way she felt threatened by refugees and not getting why she's fined. Which would be wrong. I was explaining to you that her statement, in Germany, is considered a threat. As a bomb joke would be at certain airports.

If that's what you meant, then sorry... be more specific next time.

[bionfivor]

i love this

[Berengil]

Who needs absolute freedom if it does more harm than good?

He who is afraid of words (not actions, words) is contemptible in the extreme.

I want the racists and other assorted trash to be able to speak their minds in the daylight. It helps very much to know who they are.

[PL-Cibo]

I can understand death threats and the likes but a joke needs to be just that, a joke. Even if it is tasteless. You have to take the good with the bad or one day you'll be getting slapped with the thousand dollar fines or worse.

Only it wasn't a joke, and is wasn't meant to be one. But as I speak german and live near the country I know a lot more about this case. You get a little more information than this joke of an article.

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Clearly you are running on precedence, only, a dated precedence generated by an event from what is rapidly approaching a century ago.

You only make martyrs out of people by restricting their ability to speak openly, even if distastefully. Shit, Hitler went to prison and simply came out stronger and more determined with better connections/vision of what he desired to achieve.

Acting in the capacity of a tyrant, even if for the supposed betterment of your people, isn't really a winning solution in the long run.

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Damn, you don't disappoint.

What does the Reich has to do with anything? The laws are much older, but history doesn't seem to be your strength so lets forget this for the second pearl of opinion. Nobody goes to jail for this as long as he doesn't violate the wiederbetätigungsgesetz. And they are not martyrs, nobody cares about them. i remembered when this happened. It was a a 10 lines post in the printmedia and a 30 seconds clip human interest story in the news. Nobody cares.

[hellhamster]

She should go to a court of law about that fine.

I'm pretty sure there is no law in Germany that prevents you from posting jokes, offensive or otherwise.

Unless of course there is a law, in that case it's been fun knowing ya Germany.

[Muh]

She should go to a court of law about that fine.

I'm pretty sure there is no law in Germany that prevents you from posting jokes, offensive or otherwise.

Unless of course there is a law, in that case it's been fun knowing ya Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung

it is the reason she got fined

[Scathbais]

the thing is, the german justice system puts a lot more emphasis on making a ruling about the whole situation, every facette included, and obviously no two cases are allways exactly the same, which puts precedence a bit into the outfield, one has to add though that german law isn't above using precedence, and there are indeed things where our highest court said "you are not allowed to do xyz just because abc" or the other way around which does indeed gets used as argument to dismiss or hold lower court cases, though on also has to know that in germany you are free to take it to a higher court as long as a lower court ruled against you.



agreed on the nda aspect, was simply the first example that came to mind, just wanted to point out exactly what you wrote yourself, if Politician A doesn't want certain things to get out s/he hands out NDAs and that's that, freedom of speech be damned, and sorry if my last text sounded kinda pissy, gets hard to type as much, i just find it important to point out that this current case is absolutely no change or breach in any freedom of speech laws in germany, and neither does it have anything to do with slamming an old lady because she said something against refugees, all in all it was a court upholding a law which exists with the purpose to protect everyone, if this is a good law is a completly different debate, but it is german law and it is widely accepted here, and not just since 2015


edit:


but that would still mean that free speech is limited, doesn't it ? if german law said free speech was absolute, but our constitutional court said nope, no flag burning, would it then still be absolute ?

If German law said ALL free speech was constitutional, then there would be no need for a Constitutional court to rule on any free speech cases, now would they? Our First Amendment doesn't say "all", therefore it leads to the need for courts to interpret the law as written.

[hellhamster]

I'm reading this thread, and a lot of people are fine with Germany having these kind of "laws". Let me give you a piece of universal truth. Freedom of speech is the most important right you can have. There are countries that dream about it, but here we have some people choosing to take a huge steamy shit on it.

Not freedom of some speech, but ALL speech.


You made your bed, now lie in it.

[Deleted]

If German law said ALL free speech was constitutional, then there would be no need for a Constitutional court to rule on any free speech cases, now would they? Our First Amendment doesn't say "all", therefore it leads to the need for courts to interpret the law as written.

which is spinning my argument around 180 degrees, all i argued was that as long as a court is in a position to say "nope, you are not allowed to do xyz" there are limitations and it isn't absolute, and exceptions exist in every country, america included (because your supreme court said so) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ech_exceptions all you can argue about is the number and kind of limitations, but 3 out of 4 people argue that america is perfect with it's totally absolutely 100% free speech, either completly ignoring that there are exceptions (they exist, no matter how often some people act like they don't) or they go all "yes, but these exceptions are different, they make sense, americans all over think this exceptions are the right thing to do" while completly ignoring that this is the very same thing most europeans are saying, that these are exceptions yes, accepted exceptions because while we value freedom of speech, we value some other things higher (once more, this isn't a germany exclusive thing, we may be a bit more touchy if it's about the nazi party but try screaming your love for isis in most european countries)

[Ravenblade]

I'm reading this thread, and a lot of people are fine with Germany having these kind of "laws". Let me give you a piece of universal truth. Freedom of speech is the most important right you can have. There are countries that dream about it, but here we have some people choosing to take a huge steamy shit on it.

Not freedom of some speech, but ALL speech.


You made your bed, now lie in it.

Actually, it was Rosa Luxemburg who said that freedom is always the freedom of the other one which requires a certain type of respect and restraint. It also requires respecting other kinds of freedom. If one freedom starts infringing another one you are only doing what laws are doing already. If I advocate or tolerate opinions that aim at a certain group that's fine, if I start asking subtly for or tolerating violent or defamatory actions against it then that's going to get another look because then the state has the obligation to prevent escalation. Germany is never going to become 4chan-like but you'd be surprised what some people are allowed to preach in public. You are looking at fringe cases, cases which are often explicitly and often only allowed in stated with little or no free speech

[hellhamster]

Actually, it was Rosa Luxemburg who said that freedom is always the freedom of the other one which requires a certain type of respect and restraint. It also requires respecting other kinds of freedom. If one freedom starts infringing another one you are only doing what laws are doing already. If I advocate or tolerate opinions that aim at a certain group that's fine, if I start asking subtly for or tolerating violent or defamatory actions against it then that's going to get another look because then the state has the obligation to prevent escalation. Germany is never going to become 4chan-like but you'd be surprised what some people are allowed to preach in public. You are looking at fringe cases, cases which are often explicitly and often only allowed in stated with little or no free speech

Well then, it's become apparent that under the guise of prevention of escalation of whatever hypothetical violence, your freedom of speech has been stripped from you. That is, to say the least, in the 21st century and at the center of the European Union, very worrying.

[Scathbais]

which is spinning my argument around 180 degrees, all i argued was that as long as a court is in a position to say "nope, you are not allowed to do xyz" there are limitations and it isn't absolute, and exceptions exist in every country, america included (because your supreme court said so) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ech_exceptions all you can argue about is the number and kind of limitations, but 3 out of 4 people argue that america is perfect with it's totally absolutely 100% free speech, either completly ignoring that there are exceptions (they exist, no matter how often some people act like they don't) or they go all "yes, but these exceptions are different, they make sense, americans all over think this exceptions are the right thing to do" while completly ignoring that this is the very same thing most europeans are saying, that these are exceptions yes, accepted exceptions because while we value freedom of speech, we value some other things higher (once more, this isn't a germany exclusive thing, we may be a bit more touchy if it's about the nazi party but try screaming your love for isis in most european countries)

All we ever argued was that in the US, no legislative branch could get away with limiting free speech without it being challenged and overturned by the courts. There are exceptions of course. The most offensive being the Sedition Act, where the government passed a law saying that speaking out against the governments efforts in the war was an act of Treason. This was unfortunately upheld by an awful supreme court. Thankfully other court cases set a precedent that such laws will never again be Constitutional.

Then you all jumped on the "the US isn't so perfect because of blah and blah and blah" That led to this ultimately fruitless discussion on whether or not American's enjoy more freedom of speech than Europeans (we do).

[Deleted]

All we ever argued was that in the US, no legislative branch could get away with limiting free speech without it being challenged and overturned by the courts. There are exceptions of course. The most offensive being the Sedition Act, where the government passed a law saying that speaking out against the governments efforts in the war was an act of Treason. This was unfortunately upheld by an awful supreme court. Thankfully other court cases set a precedent that such laws will never again be Constitutional.

Then you all jumped on the "the US isn't so perfect because of blah and blah and blah" That led to this ultimately fruitless discussion on whether or not American's enjoy more freedom of speech than Europeans (we do).

there are like 5 different posters at least that are arguing that europeans and germans in particular are obviously living in a fascist regime because theire freedom of speech isn't absolute, unlike the great and beautiful american free speech which is so absolutely perfect that while it has exceptions this are all perfectly reasonable.

Don't make me scout more then 20 pages to quote every time someone wrote "so germany is big on the fascism again i see" or "god bless america, great thing we are totally free and can absolutely do whatever we want" (paraphrased) yes, you have more freedom of speech , no one here denied that as an american you can get away with a lot more in that regard, the only thing people argued is if this is allways a good thing (see:you also got exceptions, obviously with some reason. and yes the sedition act as you describe it sounds like a sick and twisted joke), not to mention that freedom of speech isn't the only freedom in the modern world.

[Ravenblade]

Well then, it's become apparent that under the guise of prevention of escalation of whatever hypothetical violence, your freedom of speech has been stripped from you. That is, to say the least, in the 21st century and at the center of the European Union, very worrying.

Has it ever been different? I am asking because you say "stripped" as if it had been any different before. For the record there's been a proven connection between increase of a certain rhetoric and increase in certain acts of violence and threats. The same laws apply to any group seeking escalation and that includes Islamists as well. The difference is that it's easier to track down people in your own language. The issue I have in this case is that she was a small fish and the case is giving the impression that there is some kind of mass witch hunt going on here. Chances are that her case was easier to handle than the real and elusive firebrands who are still there and protected by freedom of speech.

I bet that even countries like France have laws in place that limit the extent of free speech. They are well-defined by laws. In some EU countries there are even laws against blasphemy or insulting religions still. At least in our case we have historically founded reasons because we learned it the hard way what happens if you tolerate agitation of people against a group and taking it to the political level. The potential is, provenly, still there, so the measures are too and if people think that Germany of all countries is a bigger threat then the rest of the EU with their own set of limitations then they cannot be helped.

[Deleted]

So basically these antiliberal mother******** likes this kind of free speech? Im goig to bully your kids to depression, what you gonna do about it, you like freedom of speech and im going to ruin your kids life if you dont stop your shit crusade about making these kind of sad jokes totally normal, you will see.

You will get what you want, i swear to god i will cyberbully your kids if you dont stop this. You have no clue what youre getting into.

You want it, ill give it to you. Liberal kids wont get it but you will.