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  1. #21
    Deadly poison the DoT effect can be refreshed with poison knife. But the DoT effect isn't the reason you want more boss uptime. It's the procced "instant poison" application from subsequent DP procs, which are increased with more envenom uptime.

    The entire point was that assassination's passive DoT dps will be much lower than before, with that missing damage shifted towards abilities that require more boss uptime. And that assassination is not nearly as flexible in its target swapping and/or swap and burst. There's a reason it's the tunneling spec. Removing AP is nice in the long run, it helps us with aoe and flexibility for sure, but ass is still tied down to a target more than the other two specs.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    Dots are now a smaller portion of dmg without ap
    That... what? That makes absolutely no sense. AP was a flat multiplier on everything, so in a vacuum nothing would change. In reality, we add DP to our damage, so our DoT damage goes up. Then we start replacing Mastery gear cause it's not as good without AP and our DoT damage goes up again since Mast buffs Envenom (ok it also buffs DP and KB, but Garrote/Rupture are unaffected, so reducing Mastery = DoTs become a bigger portion of our damage). If we switch to Boots + Bracers as some people have been speculating, our DoT damage goes up again.

    Or, if you need proof, just go compare early EN logs to current logs. Rupture used to be waaaaaaaaay higher than Envenom, while it's the opposite now.
    Last edited by Won7on; 2017-06-11 at 07:40 AM.
    Ankleshanker, 110 Rogue, Aerie Peak US

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Won7on View Post
    That... what? That makes absolutely no sense. AP was a flat multiplier on everything, so in a vacuum nothing would change. In reality, we add DP to our damage, so our DoT damage goes up. Then we start replacing Mastery gear cause it's not as good without AP and our DoT damage goes up again since Mast buffs Envenom (ok it also buffs DP and KB, but Garrote/Rupture are unaffected, so reducing Mastery = DoTs become a bigger portion of our damage). If we switch to Boots + Bracers as some people have been speculating, our DoT damage goes up again.

    Or, if you need proof, just go compare early EN logs to current logs. Rupture used to be waaaaaaaaay higher than Envenom, while it's the opposite now.
    I didn't articulate my point well. You're right, DoT's are just as large a portion of our dps. I used that statement to support the fact that boss uptime is more important now than previously. That point stands.

    Rupture was higher in EN because of exsang.

  4. #24
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    I didn't articulate my point well. You're right, DoT's are just as large a portion of our dps. I used that statement to support the fact that boss uptime is more important now than previously. That point stands.

    Rupture was higher in EN because of exsang.
    no it wasnt

  5. #25
    Rupture was a higher PROPORTION of damage in EN because we didn't have our tier set, or Mantle. Mantle and the 4p tier bonus are what make envenom a greater portion of damage than what it was in EN. It is further exasperated because we no longer use Nightstalker for rupture, instead its used for envenom now. So, proportionally to envenom, rupture is less of our total damage.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by DestinyDMG View Post
    no it wasnt
    oh i'm sorry, a single 5cp rupture did not do mroe damage in en gear than it does in nh.

    However as riverr said, it was a much larger proportion of damage for various reasons (one of those was the popular use of exsanguinate)

    nitpicking....

  7. #27
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by elprofessor View Post
    the dot of deadly poison can be refreshed by using poisoned knife.



    All specs are hugely dependent on boss uptime. No uptime means usually no dps. Assassination and Sub can keep up a little part of the dps while moving around because of dots (to use shuriken toss makes only sense to prevent capping energy, but the gain is not worth speaking. Poisoned Knife should only be used to keep up deadly poison and to avoid capping energy). Outlaw only has PS and BtE. BtE is usually in use during the normal rotation and has a long cooldown (while not in melee range, its hard to reduce the cooldown). The DPS of PS alone is not worth speaking.



    The time is lost either way for all specs.

    You must react to the uptime-losses anyways.

    And its quite impossible to loose a whole usage of a CD due to a delay of 10secs. If you delay a spell for 10secs, it can cost you 10secs of the same CD in the last moments of the encounter.
    The DP dot itself is the smaller value, its the instant poisen with the most damage. So this poisen knife argument doesnt work.
    Compared to all other classes/specs assa is one of the specs which suffers the lost from not attacking the boss. We dont even have a long cd burst cd.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by elfporn View Post
    I didn't articulate my point well. You're right, DoT's are just as large a portion of our dps. I used that statement to support the fact that boss uptime is more important now than previously. That point stands.

    Rupture was higher in EN because of exsang.
    Not really. I looked through my logs, and even after I was using AP, and even before I had Bracers, Rupture was still waaaaay more than Envenom. Feel free to have a look: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...=dps&boss=1841

    The difference is mainly the T19 4P (which we're losing), higher Mastery (which we're losing, won't go as low as early EN of course, but lower than the pure 170%+ Mastery stacking we were doing in NH), and of course the Shoulders (which we might not use, if T19 2p + T20 4p + Boots/Bracers is the default build). Lose all of those, plus the gain of DP, and our relative DoT damage will go up quite a bit in ToS relative to now.
    Ankleshanker, 110 Rogue, Aerie Peak US

  9. #29
    What ilvl are those two pieces of t19 in simulation? Because if they are equal to the t20 (which is possible to get) I really doubt that's going to be default setup, since the ilvl difference is like 30 ilvl on each item (not counting in possible procs on it) and then I would need to farm NH mythic as well, yeah good luck with that. I see t19 2p + t20 4p as a minmax for people who wants to get high ranks in logs, but definetly not as default setup, since looking at the sims the dps difference between t19 m + t20 h and t20 h is only 10k.
    Last edited by sirethas; 2017-06-12 at 06:51 AM.

  10. #30
    Deleted
    Your chances of farming a high rolled t19 is the same as farming a high-rolled Tomb piece which will make the difference even more dramatic.

  11. #31
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by sirethas View Post
    What ilvl are those two pieces of t19 in simulation? Because if they are equal to the t20 (which is possible to get) I really doubt that's going to be default setup, since the ilvl difference is like 30 ilvl on each item (not counting in possible procs on it) and then I would need to farm NH mythic as well, yeah good luck with that. I see t19 2p + t20 4p as a minmax for people who wants to get high ranks in logs, but definetly not as default setup, since looking at the sims the dps difference between t19 m + t20 h and t20 h is only 10k.
    Exactly. People are siming and talking about T19 2P + T20 4P like its a 100% chance of getting a titanforged T19 piece. When ToS hits, no guild will waste any time in Nighthold, neither top tier nor casual raids. T20 4P with highest offset pieces will be the default set-up.

  12. #32
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurellio View Post
    Exactly. People are siming and talking about T19 2P + T20 4P like its a 100% chance of getting a titanforged T19 piece. When ToS hits, no guild will waste any time in Nighthold, neither top tier nor casual raids. T20 4P with highest offset pieces will be the default set-up.
    Sims result have seen were clearly stated T19MM 2P + T20HM 4P
    the "startup" for TOS MM opening in a way...

  13. #33
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Enterich View Post
    The DP dot itself is the smaller value, its the instant poisen with the most damage. So this poisen knife argument doesnt work.
    Compared to all other classes/specs assa is one of the specs which suffers the lost from not attacking the boss. We dont even have a long cd burst cd.
    First of all, everything what makes damage while you are moving around helps. Sure, the dot of DP is not the main source at all, but it makes still dps. Rupture + Garrote + DP-Dot are helping by keeping the DPS up. The DP-Dot is on par with garrote.

    Furthermore if assassination is the spec that suffers the most from uptime-gaps it would result in massive dps losses which cannot be catched up again. But its quite the opposite and happens more frequently with sub and nearly anytime with outlaw. I dont talk about 3-5sec gaps, ToS delivers us mechanics which preventing us to stay at the boss for 10+ seconds quite often.

    All specs are tunnel specs, because all specs are doing the most damage while tunneling. Every uptime loss results in a dps loss. Due to better management capabilites assassination can handle those gaps better than the other specs. As assassination you can manage your CDs perfectly, that it fits for any encounter.
    Last edited by mmoca163a27034; 2017-06-12 at 08:04 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Jahwal View Post
    Sims result have seen were clearly stated T19MM 2P + T20HM 4P
    the "startup" for TOS MM opening in a way...
    That's what I mean, as a startup sure, but it won't be default whole ToS as some people claims (not in this thread necessarly), I mean, maybe if you get really high NH rolls on those items, but the dps difference ain't worth the hassle imo.

  15. #35
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by sirethas View Post
    That's what I mean, as a startup sure, but it won't be default whole ToS as some people claims (not in this thread necessarly), I mean, maybe if you get really high NH rolls on those items, but the dps difference ain't worth the hassle imo.
    I agree that it may not last... especially with the minor DPS boost the 2P provides.

  16. #36
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jahwal View Post
    Sims result have seen were clearly stated T19MM 2P + T20HM 4P
    the "startup" for TOS MM opening in a way...
    Well, i didnt have so much like with warforged or even titanforged items from NH MM. My max. forged piece of T19 is my back with 915. The rest is 905. So if you already get 925 offset pieces from ToS HM you wont be using 2P 19 for MM ToS anymore. And thats what i wanted to say. People sitting with T19 TF pieces are surely better off but if you didnt have any luck, you wont care much about 2P T19 905 pieces if you get high rolled offset pieces from ToS HM.

  17. #37
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by sirethas View Post
    That's what I mean, as a startup sure, but it won't be default whole ToS as some people claims (not in this thread necessarly), I mean, maybe if you get really high NH rolls on those items, but the dps difference ain't worth the hassle imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jahwal View Post
    I agree that it may not last... especially with the minor DPS boost the 2P provides.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurellio View Post
    Well, i didnt have so much like with warforged or even titanforged items from NH MM. My max. forged piece of T19 is my back with 915. The rest is 905. So if you already get 925 offset pieces from ToS HM you wont be using 2P 19 for MM ToS anymore. And thats what i wanted to say. People sitting with T19 TF pieces are surely better off but if you didnt have any luck, you wont care much about 2P T19 905 pieces if you get high rolled offset pieces from ToS HM.
    The T19M2 (cloak+helmet on base ilvl 905 each) is equal in strength with the combination of the strongest cloak (935) and strongest helmet (940) out of ToS mythic. This happens because the very bad itemization of helmets in ToS in general. To counter the T19M2 set bonus requires a very high rolled helmet with high mastery + low crit/versa (+15 to +20 ilvls higher than the ilvl of the t19 headpiece).

  18. #38
    Deleted
    Still not too good because you wanna use Mantle, as it is still our BIS leggo. So if you want to have 4p T20 and Mantle you just cant really use t19 2p. But thats all just words in the ever changing winds of Blizzard. Tuning will come and tuning will go so stay tuned I guess?!

  19. #39
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowslim View Post
    Still not too good because you wanna use Mantle, as it is still our BIS leggo. So if you want to have 4p T20 and Mantle you just cant really use t19 2p. But thats all just words in the ever changing winds of Blizzard. Tuning will come and tuning will go so stay tuned I guess?!
    T19M2+T20M4+Bracers+Boots are in combination stronger than only T20M4+Shoulders+bracers.

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