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  1. #21
    Tried to understand the talent pick of the new ring. They could as well place crusade there. Would that change what talent one would pick with that leggo equipped ?
    Sad at how much that icy vein guide defends retribution talent tree
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Stroggylos View Post
    Tried to understand the talent pick of the new ring. They could as well place crusade there. Would that change what talent one would pick with that leggo equipped ?
    Sad at how much that icy vein guide defends retribution talent tree
    Haha. The problem I had when I went PvP thinking I had DP. I had Crusade on because I was using Soul of the Highlord =(. Needless to say there were many a missed kills TT_TT

  3. #23
    ret paladins gain someyhing staking versatility? anyone try it?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Szhneider View Post
    ret paladins gain someyhing staking versatility? anyone try it?
    I've unintentionally done that since I have so many 920+ PvP pieces from high rated arena. My PvE set has ~20% vers. It's not good other than I could easily live rings on M Elisande even if I derped hard and even before they were nerfed.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Wutangrza View Post
    I've unintentionally done that since I have so many 920+ PvP pieces from high rated arena. My PvE set has ~20% vers. It's not good other than I could easily live rings on M Elisande even if I derped hard and even before they were nerfed.
    high vers will be stronger in ToS due to us playing with zeal and BoW than in NH were we used fires and DH. don´t throw away those pieces until you have 4 set and simmed the different talent combinations.
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  6. #26
    Point is that the class design is so poor with next to none synergy of secondaries and spells/talents/traits/leggos/tier that versa even with the lost itemization towards healing/mitigation is usually the best bet for consistent results regardless of encounters
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Stroggylos View Post
    Point is that the class design is so poor with next to none synergy of secondaries and spells/talents/traits/leggos/tier that versa even with the lost itemization towards healing/mitigation is usually the best bet for consistent results regardless of encounters
    There is always inherent synergy with secondaries. The more of a specific secondary you have the more value you get from every other secondary.

    Ret itemization is that easy TBH. Stack haste and it doesn't matter much what secondaries you get cuz you'll get linear results regardless. Mastery still pretty weak but other than that we have it pretty easy.

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talvindius View Post
    There is always inherent synergy with secondaries. The more of a specific secondary you have the more value you get from every other secondary.

    Ret itemization is that easy TBH. Stack haste and it doesn't matter much what secondaries you get cuz you'll get linear results regardless. Mastery still pretty weak but other than that we have it pretty easy.
    I think he was talking about spec combat mechanics,re resources and talents.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    I think he was talking about spec combat mechanics,re resources and talents.
    Word.
    Ofc there is synergy between the stats but what is the synergy between stats and spec in general ?
    Mastery: Only synergy with judgement and finishers. But the synergy is so weak that mastery ends up to be one of the least desired stats for every encounter/plot one can think. (there is a huge gap in theorycrafting here since this expansion it has been replaced by simcraft reporting: one would expect a breakpoint in % of total damage from generators+judge where mastery would perform strongly but apparently there is none or at least the way it would affect the rest of the stats would end up in a total loss).
    Crit: only synergy with virtue's blade . But the effect is so weak and the resource generation is so slow that it is always a loss.
    Haste: Flawing scaling and more difficult to find a proper weight since one has to find out when to stop/begin: external cds (hero) and crusade can get it to skyhigh levels where it becomes irrelevant (and annoying for people without 0 ping), sometimes it can even make gameplay annoying since 1. judgement is something u got to refresh anyhow, 2. one will find consistently generators to be sitting around waiting and even at really high levels sometimes one will have to wait till generators come off cd. 3. it definately helps to keep cloak buff uptime but the effect after the nerf is low and noone would happily go for a 95%+ uptime by loosing rest of the stats. Anyways various softcaps have been mentioned by various guides always coming down to the same result : get over 12.5% and after that get as much as it FEELS good for you and always sim your toon.
    Versa: Affects everything one does however it has an inherent deficit: looses itemization to defensive effects. However it is always a solid stat.

    Now i can see how these have been mentioned before and that everyone has asked for a stronger mastery in the past, but this is an intended result: first iteration of t20 had mastery synergizing with our strong generator but they changed it after a couple of weeks in ptr.
    So y we are officially screwed this expansion by dev's decisions (even during/after testing): they don't want us to have a chance to perform well, or at least have a couple of talent choices (-and i am really annoyed by the guides playing it like we got a dozen viable speccs). And ofc i find myself buffled by the fact that i need to pick versa heavy gear ( brings back memories of battling with healers for intellect gear when tanking in tbc).

    TLDR keep your secondaries together, if u can avoid mastery do it ( regardless of your choices the weapon and tier20 have tons of it anyways).
    Last edited by Stroggylos; 2017-06-21 at 09:15 AM.
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  10. #30
    I've always used the Lia Ring+Belt combo, from EM (Cloak dropped before NH started) to NH (with CoS) and it always worked well. It still is. As for stats, the more haste the better but go with what you find comfortable. I like around 25-26% (the 31.5% cap is too punishing to reach). It makes the rotation smoother than 21-22% haste, and since I can't use Blinding light anymore to fill the "waiting times", it feels better. With better gear I plan on increasing it more. Crit-wise I aim at least 30%, not more than 33%. Then I put the rest I can in Versa. That's how I sim the best with my Leg/Trinket Set-up. These stats are based on my 909 (equiped) Ret Pal @7/10 NH MM pre-ToS.

  11. #31
    So long as Mastery point per % increase doesn't increase dramatically or affect all damage sources (Trinkets & DMG proc aside) it will never amount to anything decent. I was really hoping for the old T20 judgement which they reverted.

  12. #32
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    Mastery as a whole is just a terrible secondary stat across all 3 specs for Paladins in Legion. They must realize how much we have avoiding mastery on our gear that had to slap that shit all over our T20. Bring back WoD's mastery or at least don't make it suck. Worst still our weapons which we cannot change are thick with mastery. They should at least afford us the customization of secondary stats on our artifact weapons.
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  13. #33
    What we have heard is that the ring of the highlord didn't sim well, but i can confirm i have had good results with it equipped. It synergises really well with empowering the blade of wrath procs. This is below 30% haste, actually i still got 22/23 and am running it with the belt. At high haste i'm sure its very doable to keep the cape buff going for almost 100%. Of course i am not a theory crafter so i'm not gonna claim to know better, but it is what i've been experiencing and i have it equipped.

  14. #34
    Pandaren Monk killwithpwr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    What we have heard is that the ring of the highlord didn't sim well, but i can confirm i have had good results with it equipped. It synergises really well with empowering the blade of wrath procs. This is below 30% haste, actually i still got 22/23 and am running it with the belt. At high haste i'm sure its very doable to keep the cape buff going for almost 100%. Of course i am not a theory crafter so i'm not gonna claim to know better, but it is what i've been experiencing and i have it equipped.
    Do you have Whispers? Does the Soul perform better for you with Chain?


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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by killwithpwr View Post
    Do you have Whispers? Does the Soul perform better for you with Chain?
    I have whispers, but since i'm still at 22% haste and i don't have the t20 x4 set i haven't kept it on and am running with chain.

  16. #36
    Pandaren Monk killwithpwr's Avatar
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    Soul is my next guaranteed lego, probably within a week.
    I really liked playing with DP, hoping it will perform well enough for me as well...

    But what would be way more awsome is if they brought back HoW as a talent (instead of the horrible Virtue Blade) and made it as the talent for the ring... I miss HoW....


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  17. #37
    HoW is love, HoW is life
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by killwithpwr View Post
    Soul is my next guaranteed lego, probably within a week.
    I really liked playing with DP, hoping it will perform well enough for me as well...

    But what would be way more awsome is if they brought back HoW as a talent (instead of the horrible Virtue Blade) and made it as the talent for the ring... I miss HoW....
    They had a lot more stuff for Ret before than just HoW. Ret got gutted more than any other spec in the game, you can actually make a solid case for this. These talents were removed from Ret after MoP: Speed of Light, Long Arm of the Law, Pursuit of Justice (so all the movement talents, effectively only replaced by Divine Steed which is pretty much a joke), Evil is a Point of View, Selfless Healer, Eternal Flame (basically got replaced by Word of Glory, which sucks because it's limited by charges and is fairly weak), Sacred Shield (Blessing of Kings replaced this functionally), Hand of Purity, Unbreakable Spirit (Divine Intervention basically replaced this), Clemency, Holy Avenger, Sanctified Wrath (Crusade basically replaced this), Holy Prism and Light's Hammer.

    Consecration used to be a baseline ability, seals got removed entirely relegating one of them to a talent choice (effectively limiting your options in combat, wtf?), Exorcism got "replaced" by Blade of Wrath and its baseline function of refreshing via auto attacks was made into a TALENT (see a pattern here?), Judgment of Light was a seal made into a talent and the level 90 choices make no sense relative to each other, Divine Purpose was nerfed into being useless for PVE because they can't be bothered to balance it with Justicar's Vengeance for PVP, Holy Wrath was a baseline ability made into a TALENT, and a useless one at that.

    They removed so much baseline stuff that Ret is nothing without talents anymore, and they removed so many talents and replaced them with what used to be baseline abilities, put bandaid replacements and made the effective choices in combat so limited compared to what they were before. They know it's an unholy, god-awful mess.

    EDIT: Oh yeah Word of Glory used to be a baseline ability, MADE INTO A TALENT. Need I say more?
    Last edited by Reith; 2017-06-23 at 01:35 PM.

  19. #39
    Pandaren Monk killwithpwr's Avatar
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    You forgot Emancipate... Sadly we have the crappy Cashbringer ability... You got a point there, but the prune was bound to happen...


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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by killwithpwr View Post
    You forgot Emancipate... Sadly we have the crappy Cashbringer ability... You got a point there, but the prune was bound to happen...
    Retribution got it the worst, however. If you go through old talents and baseline abilities of other specs, you won't find one with so many talents straight-up removed. Only reason I'm still playing now is for the guild I'm in. What made Ret what it was, was to be versatile. Not king in any aspect, but a jack of all trades in combat. They had an actual reason for Ret not to be at the top in dps because we could save people. Now Ret has almost nothing separating it from a Warrior, functionally-speaking.

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