Blizzard killed Mythic+ dungeons.

[Tatahe]

Yeah M+ is death. I think they change this to avoid people getting "ez" gear and rushing ToS. They also nerf ToS ilvl and nerf AP. I think it's all cause of ToS raid been too ez for top guilds. Emerald Nightmare 2.0

[Marrilaife]

I think this change will also make life harder for pugs, cause of no carries and less chances someone wants to play their key with them.

Funny, because a guildie of mine wanted to do a +10 for his alt (902 equipped so not a crap "boost me" one), he didn't have the key, he complained no one invites him, so I decided to help him out on my main (910 equipped tank), we queued together into "1 guy with a key" type of groups and about 5 groups declined us / timed out before someone actually decided to invite us (we did nelth+10 and we didn't encounter any problem), you'd think since the "no depletion" and "no more 'boosting keys' groups" people would start being less picky, but apparently not?

I don't even know what are they counting for, from my perspective having a tank +2 dps in a group is a bigger incentive for remaining people to queue than having a lone dps, our gear was enough for a +10 and you can't count on a "boost group" premade of 4 or anything like that because these people don't pug, they run with each other now that key supply is infinite.

I would also understand if the group filled, but they were timing out empty and still declining, or ended up as "this group has been delisted". Beats me what's the deal.

[Softbottom]

This was exactly the issue: There was far too much loot in lower keys that were braindead easy, incentivizing the mindless grind of those. Now it moved to at least incentivizing running the highest loot-cap level. Even that is now at +10 and will be soon at +15 a rather easy face-roll, but at least it stopped incentivizing those really low keys.

The added loot from 15 upwards will probably not offset the time-benefit you get from playing the minimum loot-cap level in (former) 3-chest time and then re-play it, but it at least gives something to those that like the challenge of pushing keys as high as possible.

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How do you know that? Are you stalking me?

See I think the problem with this is that it's not incentivizing running higher keys; people just won't do them anymore cause don't want to do higher dungeons cause either A) they don't want or care about the challenge, B) Some autists love spamming low level keys, C) Players can't be bothered, D) players enjoy more loot with chance of TF.

I really feel like the population of players doing mythic+ is going to decrease even more than it has. From pre 7.2 to now it already feels like there are half as many groups. It will continue to drop other than people doing their weekly +10-15.

[TorikSAn]

My IMHO

New system is more logical and honest to the rule more skill/effort more/better loot. Previous system was a mistake by the way design has come. They knew there will be high keys and low keys and they wanted to add system to skip lower levels of keys faster than making them step by step. Then they thought that players will ask hey i skipped some lvls so i missed loot and added aditional "missed" chests. But in reality you already got "rewarded" with that you used less time to get your level of competition with your level of loot. In M+ system effort and skill is more described by lvl of dungeon you completed and much less by time you made it. So asking much more loot for much faster M+ is like asking "Why we don't get double loot if we kill Gul'dan in half of it's enrage timer?". Because making same content faster and faster is less about skill/effort and more about overgear/boosts. When there is harder content possible. Only question about aditional loot drops after 15+. How much it must be? 40%(like now) or 50% or... With previous loot system 3 chest (60% time) means that you have enough DPS to make dungeon ~5-6 lvls higher in basic time. But they increased base loot from 2 to 3 items, and 5 more dungeon levels will add +2, for 5 total in new system versus 6 in old non logical system (where "overgearing" was rewarding not only in time comsumption but in loot count too).

TL;DR - Previous loot system was overthinking mistake made by Blizzard that was double rewarding you for overgearing/boosting. New system works closer to system more skill/effort more/better loot.

[Isadora]

How exactly was it more rewarding?

If you were specifically farming Titanforged version of some special piece of gear/trinket you would run 10+ (and avoid not lower keys)

Because it was boring as fuck with practically no reward.

I'm part of a mythic raiding guild, not an especially good one, mind you, but enough to get Cutting Edge. We raid two nights a week. Nobody in my guild was going to run the same dungeon 20-30 times per week for the offchance of that one item in there that might be better than what we already had IF (and only IF!) it is a titanforged procc. Because guess what, doing EoA+10 even 3 times in a row is fucking boring. All we had to show for 90 % of those runs were chaos crystals. The chance for getting an actual reward from a +10 was slim.

Now, what point was there to do anything higher than a +10? Or a +15, if you want to be generous? Why would we EVER want to push for a +18 key, a+20 or something like that? The possible rewards stay EXACTLY the same, but it's less likely to get a lot of them. Instead of getting rewarded for beating a higher difficulty, you got punished, because you were slower. That's not appealing at all.

Now it's exactly the opposite. You no longer get rewarded for clearing content that you clearly outgear, but you get rewarded for doing something that's actually challenging. If you manage to beat a +21 CoEN, you not only get some bragging rights, you actually get more gear as you'd get from a +10 that you brainlessly and effortlessly clear.

[thunderdragon2]

What's the point of running them now, apart maybe from one +15 for the weekly chest.

I used to chain run M+10 like an autist. It was fun for me and it gave me something to do with stable outcome (farm some item if you really wanted it).

Now everything is fucked over:

- difficulty upped
- loot drop nerfed
- loot ilevel the same
- key / time / depletion changes are for the worst
- less people care about it (less LFG pool)


Why?

erm

raid boss gives a 10 mill ap token a mythic+5 dungeon gives a 19 mill ap token i think they will be fine

[Matthias]

I've only done a few 10+ but so far I actually kind of like the change. Before a 10+ was never really hard in itself, the challenge was doing it fast enough. Now it's more challenging and you can take your time. That's how dungeons should be. I never liked how since WoTLK the minute you enter a 5 man your pretty much expected to clear it.

[Charge me Doctor]

I'd say chain potting starts to get mandatory from 15+, especially with some affixes like fortitied/tyrannical/teeming.

Though honestly most M+ people I know spam pots in 8+ and beyond.
It just makes things faster.

Consumables aren't a bad thing, complaints about people "spamming pots" are really mind boggling to me, potions are cooldowns with limited use, if you don't use it - you underperform, you must use them every time they are available (2 times per boss in raids, on cooldown in dungeons) if you want to perform better.

[Grobovshik]

? Why would we EVER want to push for a +18 key, a+20 or something like that?

Because it was better than awful NH mythic, which was boring shit. More challenge=more fun (yep those people exists, loot sucks since TBC).

[Celestraza]

Consumables aren't a bad thing, complaints about people "spamming pots" are really mind boggling to me, potions are cooldowns with limited use, if you don't use it - you underperform, you must use them every time they are available (2 times per boss in raids, on cooldown in dungeons) if you want to perform better.

One/Two potions per encounter I find fine like on mythic bosses.
You should also be limited to 1-2 pots in a mythic dungeon.

But spam chainpotting trash on cooldown + prepot+pot on each dungeon boss is not a gameplay I support and imho can and should easily be disabled.

[Charge me Doctor]

One/Two potions per encounter I find fine like on mythic bosses.
You should also be limited to 1-2 pots in a mythic dungeon.

But spam chainpotting trash on cooldown + prepot+pot on each dungeon boss is not a gameplay I support and imho can and should easily be disabled.

1-2 potion per dungeon is not equivalent of 1-2 potion per raid boss... imagine being limited to 1-2 potion on one wing of NH, lol. No, that's kinda stupid.

Potions are your cooldowns, they are somewhat gated behind gold, but if you want the best performance you use them on every opportunity. The same way you use any cooldowns in dungeons - you use them on most important packs, in conjunction with your regular cooldowns, it's literally the same shit as using potions in raids. You also (*gasp*) have to choose between which potions you use (well, in case of some DPS specs and most of the tanks), i've seen people wasting 40 seconds of their prolonged potion on fucking moving around... yeah, probably because drinking deadly grace is too expensive, that's why he wasted a potion cooldown like this

[Marrilaife]

Consumables aren't a bad thing, complaints about people "spamming pots" are really mind boggling to me,

As much as I understand consumables were always a thing so there's not much point complaining against them, I do feel sympathy for the people who suddenly found themselves broke because m+ can be spammed all day round while raiding rarely takes more than 3-4 hours a night 3-4 days a week unless you're in a world top guild, pushing m+ became such a consumable sink that Legion completely crashed the market and at start we went back to vanilla levels of "grinding for consumables" and many, too many people I know bought tokens for irl money just to be able to afford pots and augment runes.

There is something disturbing in the thought people pay sub once and then pay another "sub" on top of it just to be allowed into any interesting content (because faceroll content that doesn't "require" consumables is plain out boring).

I personally managed to avoid this issue because 1) I play more than average so can make some gold 2) I don't hardcore push m+ 3) I don't even raid hardcore just "casual mythic" level. But I can understand some people "hate" consumables because it's something that locks them out of challenging content they're interested in unless they pay a "premium sub".

[Marrilaife]

It's not the consumables that is the problem, it is the people demanding the use of them. People that I out-dps without consumables. It's hilarious seeing people expecting self-buffs in EN. I can understand in NH for upped overall finish time, but really. Not at all necessary and I couldn't care less about M+.

This thread is about m+, not about EN or some other low-end content. In higher m+ consumables make a big difference because of the sheer amounts of them you can use, it can make the difference between making the timer or not, and since now Blizzard made it so from next week on pushing m+ above 15 gives you a chance for extra items, and there is already 1 bonus item purely for beating the timer as opposed to failing it, therefore the impact of consumables will be even bigger.

Before the patch you could spam easy 9-10 for "3 chest" and farm loot, this is gone now.

It's not about what people demand for trivial content, it's about the fact consumables have impact in non-trivial content, often bigger impact than few ilvls of gear for example, player skill is still a factor, it always is, but taking 2 equally skilled players to high m+ and one chain pots the other doesn't will make a visible difference in their performance.

[Charge me Doctor]

As much as I understand consumables were always a thing so there's not much point complaining against them, I do feel sympathy for the people who suddenly found themselves broke because m+ can be spammed all day round while raiding rarely takes more than 3-4 hours a night 3-4 days a week unless you're in a world top guild, pushing m+ became such a consumable sink that Legion completely crashed the market and at start we went back to vanilla levels of "grinding for consumables" and many, too many people I know bought tokens for irl money just to be able to afford pots and augment runes.

There is something disturbing in the thought people pay sub once and then pay another "sub" on top of it just to be allowed into any interesting content (because faceroll content that doesn't "require" consumables is plain out boring).

I personally managed to avoid this issue because 1) I play more than average so can make some gold 2) I don't hardcore push m+ 3) I don't even raid hardcore just "casual mythic" level. But I can understand some people "hate" consumables because it's something that locks them out of challenging content they're interested in unless they pay a "premium sub".

consumables are hardly a requirement tho, if you can't afford to use them - you can just run lower keys. If you want to run higher keys - well, you have to do what you have to do - spec properly and spend money on consumables. They aren't that expensive anyway, at least on overpopulated RU server

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Before the patch you could spam easy 9-10 for "3 chest" and farm loot, this is gone now.

It's not about what people demand for trivial content, it's about the fact consumables have impact in non-trivial content, often bigger impact than few ilvls of gear for example, player skill is still a factor, it always is, but taking 2 equally skilled players to high m+ and one chain pots the other doesn't will make a visible difference in their performance.

Not really, you can still spam various easy keys and still farm loot. You'll get less of it but you still can. And if the choice is "do nothing" or "farm m+ for gear", nothing really changed.

Well, yes, a player more dedicated to the game gets better results, it's not a rocket science.

But lets be serious, you don't get booted off m+ runs for not using potions, you may get booted off for not flasking up or eating food (which is not really a problem for me since i'm a pandaren and bring 400 main stat tables with me), you'll get worse results and if that'll be a problem (like we had in m19 eye of azhara - we couldn't bring last boss down fast enough and wiped 20 fucking times) key will just decay to lower one and you can continue doing it

[Daffan]

Well go away, stop asking for the the best gear when you won't do the hardest content.

That's most people in this game.


uhhh 2 hard plz blizzard patch it so it drops mythic set gear

reason why 90% of content in this game is trivial garbage, so much overgearing just by killing fel boars in invasions for example.

[harruin]

Anyone else notice more people leaving in pugs due to the changes with depletion? I've had 2 in the past few days where someone just leaves at the last boss.

[Sensimilla]

Anyone else notice more people leaving in pugs due to the changes with depletion? I've had 2 in the past few days where someone just leaves at the last boss.

Yes I have noticed that. People don't care to stay if something goes wrong because they won't feel bad about your depleted key. Back when depletion was a thing, some would actually feel bad for leaving your dungeon in the middle and depleting it so they would stay.

As it stands now, the only way of actually making sure you get your run done is going with guild or people you know.

[Tydan]

M+ is totally dead, before you start yes guildies are the way to go but getting a guild run together is nearly as bad as the non existant LFG searches.

[Korban]

Well, 2 weeks later, M+ is still a total clusterfuck

Just incase you got a halls of valor / cathedral / black rook hold / lower kara keystone this week, don't worry... it'll be fine! Theres totally a lot of people who are willing to do your key. And with the new removal of 2 and 3 chests there is double the amount of applicants.

Im absolutely astounded how Blizzard would think this was a good idea

[Marrilaife]

Well I don't think it's that much more tragic now as you paint it.

First example, my dps alt making a solo group for a low key. Insta 2 dps. Wait ages for tank and healer, but that was standard before. Once one joins the other joins too. Also learned to stop putting 860+ requirement for +2 because apparently I got ppl like this 864 mage who did less dps across the dungeon than the 871 tank (just to say the tank wasn't 900+ etc.), he averaged less than 200k dps, good than me and dk did way more. I didn't want to be elitist with ilvl but the community forces me to.

Second example, my main, well geared tank but with not much m+ score, last week, try to get into 3 different 15s, declined from all. Apparently there must be plenty of better candidates. Got into 14, pushed into 15, goddamnit it's lower kara, wiped there for ages but managed in the end. People were surprisingly patient only 1 rogue started getting annoyed.

This week, pugged a 13, did 1 bad pull kinda and got tons of flame from a mage. We still finished in time but gosh ppl are touchy. I thought at start this group is going well might stay after but when this mage started flaming me I just decided to drop the group after we finished. Not during to be clear.

Went with guild - pushing from 11 to 15 for weekly chest. 1 dps short. Queue group. Insta 20+ apps. Gosh how do I pick someone. Get whisper from a Russian. How do I armory a Russian? Dunno. Next guy. Checked 2 ppl at random, 1 had 4/10m in NH the other had 9/10m so I picked the second. Then start getting whispers from another guy about his amazing wowprogress score and keystone master and why should I inv him. Seriously, how do you pick a best guy? I dunno. I just sticked with the 9/10m guy I picked originally at random. He didn't have any high m+ done but neither do I, I just do weekly and done, can't be a hypocrite and demand others to do differently. So if anyone wonders why is a dps declined from m+, I have no fucking clue, there is 1 spot and 20 ppl am I supposed to screen them all in 5 mins and decide who is the best?

So we did 11 smoothly, 13 smoothly, 15 with some annoying wipes and finished it 2 min overtime but w/e, weekly is done time to go home. But as I said the interest is there, had so many ppl queue that I can't say it's any less than before the patch.

There's less boosting ofc. That's about it.