Frost DK Bottom Tier for ToS?

[Prussian]

Looking at some sims it seems that they are one of the bottom few specs in T20. Is this accurate or too early to tell?

[Nasuuna]

Patch is live, check logs not sims

[Prussian]

I'm looking at ToS in T20, that's not up yet.

[Bisque]

Hmm , frost wasn't buffed in the most recent hot fixes (kudos to survival) so I would have to assume that the sims are not accurate. Either that or blizz is late to the party. _

[Cosmic Janitor]

Hmm , frost wasn't buffed in the most recent hot fixes (kudos to survival) so I would have to assume that the sims are not accurate. Either that or blizz is late to the party. _

I think we should be happy that we were not even mentioned in the patch notes, I'm not exactly confident that we would end up gaining much if we were.. in fact I fear we would just get nerfed more. I don't see us being complete garbage tier yet, if the "sims" show us to be I'd like to know what base model was used to come to that conclusion.

[JESUSSAYSNO]

Unholy will be better. Frost is losing its t19, getting a rather shit t20 in replacement, and ToS has multiple cancerous fights for Frost.

With or without the simdps, which isnt really relevant in the first place as logs and actually showing up is what counts, Frost is getting shafted.

[taek]

I'm looking at ToS in T20, that's not up yet.

I can't remember the last time simulationcraft accurately reflected inter-class DPS rankings correctly for raids.

7.2 SC had Feral on top, Frost mid tier, and Affliction locks below average. Wasn't accurate then, won't be in the future until we hit a raid with 10 patchwerk fights.

Just IMO,
Use SC for gear decisions.
Use Logs for spec rankings.

[Deleted]

Unholy will be better. Frost is losing its t19, getting a rather shit t20 in replacement, and ToS has multiple cancerous fights for Frost.

With or without the simdps, which isnt really relevant in the first place as logs and actually showing up is what counts, Frost is getting shafted.

Frost t20 isnt shit. It was insane, then very strong, now it is still strong. Even after latest nerf it sims really good, about 10% dps, and is 10k higher for me than t19.

That was the set bonus comparison pre latest nerf:

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vc8YWudxJw0ro0U8IPT1eD4oEzE5VdXroH--PSWRLyc/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0

Now it is down to 9-10%, still pretty good.

I have talked to a top 100 DK and he said it will be ptobably 5 bosses frost and 4 unholy. Keeping both specs up could be a good choice.

[JESUSSAYSNO]

Frost t20 isnt shit. It was insane, then very strong, now it is still strong. Even after latest nerf it sims really good, about 10% dps, and is 10k higher for me than t19.

That was the set bonus comparison pre latest nerf:

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vc8YWudxJw0ro0U8IPT1eD4oEzE5VdXroH--PSWRLyc/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0

Now it is down to 9-10%, still pretty good.

Okay, sure. I absolutely believe that the frost tier might be okay,however the overall kit strength and synergy is weaker than t19. You will 100% get better single target sims with t20, however t19 in the context of nighthold is far far stonger than t20 in ToS, single target sims mean very little. But past that, we can even move away from the quality of frost and directly compare it to unholy.

t19 UH is kinda shit. t20 Uh is absolutely amazing. Frost's t20 is overall weaker than t19 in the context of the intended raid. Already both UH and Frost are on dead equal footing in NH this last week, with Uh being at a disadvantage on tier. With the massive UH tier, even if frost's tier 20 is okay or even in impact to t19, UH will pull ahead.

This isnt even considering the kit advantages UH has over frost. UH isnt punished by disconect at all (to the point where UH can maintain disconect for a solid 12 gcds without losing any more than white damage), while Frost can be crippled by disconect. And that alone is probably the biggest factor that puts UH ahead of frost, when both specs are close to equal.

Frost has better aoe, UH has better disconect. and ToS isnt a very aoe heavy raid.

[Lucrece]

Okay, sure. I absolutely believe that the frost tier might be okay,however the overall kit strength and synergy is weaker than t19. You will 100% get better single target sims with t20, however t19 in the context of nighthold is far far stonger than t20 in ToS, single target sims mean very little. But past that, we can even move away from the quality of frost and directly compare it to unholy.

t19 UH is kinda shit. t20 Uh is absolutely amazing. Frost's t20 is overall weaker than t19 in the context of the intended raid. Already both UH and Frost are on dead equal footing in NH this last week, with Uh being at a disadvantage on tier. With the massive UH tier, even if frost's tier 20 is okay or even in impact to t19, UH will pull ahead.

This isnt even considering the kit advantages UH has over frost. UH isnt punished by disconect at all (to the point where UH can maintain disconect for a solid 12 gcds without losing any more than white damage), while Frost can be crippled by disconect. And that alone is probably the biggest factor that puts UH ahead of frost, when both specs are close to equal.

Frost has better aoe, UH has better disconect. and ToS isnt a very aoe heavy raid.

Actually, mass aoe unholy is incredibly strong. Frost beats it at cleave, not aoe.

And most importantly, unholy doesn't have sindragosa's fury for key add bursts, and its DPS cooldowns don't cleave outside abomination whereas frost's pillar applies to all their aoe skills and sindragosa (gargoyle ST, apocalypse ST, with delayed ghoul explosions that are unreliable at best as a trait).

Frost is also way simpler, which will translate better in progression where you can get through mechanics without fighting your own spec mechanics.

Keeping up BoS is a joke compared to the intricacies of UH's cooldown management and foresight with wound setups.

[Khain]

Yeah DK is sucking ass at Simcraft, I don't know if it will actually be that way but it's not very appealing being at the absolute bottom.

[meumaxu]

Our class is broken we need to spam at oficial forums to blizzard restore our tier nerfs or buff something else... ITs absurd that they made us to the botton AGAIN while warriors, rogues and DH remain on top the entire xpac

[Flextt]

Yeah DK is sucking ass at Simcraft, I don't know if it will actually be that way but it's not very appealing being at the absolute bottom.

Remember to take it with a grain of salt. It took us two months into Nighthold to realize that the Sim config wouldnt line up HRW and BoS which is why CoF was massively underreflected.

[Deleted]

I don't know how it will progress as we get into ToS but so far frost death knights are doing pretty well
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...n=3&dataset=90

[meumaxu]

I don't know how it will progress as we get into ToS but so far frost death knights are doing pretty well
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...n=3&dataset=90

Our T19 is great... T20 sucks after nerfd while T20 is fucking awesome for most classes... thats why we are going to be at the botton for the next tier

[Bugg]

aoe unholy is incredibly strong. Frost beats it at cleave, not aoe.

1. what is the difference between AoE and Cleave? Cleave is when there are two targets?
2. how is the mobility of frost vs unholy? There is plenty of movement in ToS from what I saw in the fatboss videos...

[Cosmic Janitor]

1. what is the difference between AoE and Cleave? Cleave is when there are two targets?
2. how is the mobility of frost vs unholy? There is plenty of movement in ToS from what I saw in the fatboss videos...

1. Yes that is the case. Cleave is one or two enemies that you hit while dpsing the main target. BoS is capped at 150% overall dmg, hence hence it is awesome for cleave but doesn't do much in true AoE fights where there are eitehr no caps on other abilities or they are way higher. Both specs do have decent base aoe/cleave though with EF and HB working very well, it's just that they excell at different parts.
2. Both are quite awful. Unholy has the slighly better wraith walk, but frost has the better defensive CDs imho (unless you spec into ghoul absorb),which allows to prevent/dispell yourself and heal yourself full in emergenies.

[Arcrin]

Patch is live, check logs not sims

cause farm logs with 2-3min kills are very very accurate for progression right?

[meumaxu]

Blizzard needs to buff frost ASAP we gonna be left behind in ToS because of the high movement required and all the nerfs they did to us

[RuneDK]

Blizzard needs to buff frost ASAP we gonna be left behind in ToS because of the high movement required and all the nerfs they did to us

I wouldn't expect a buff until next week, and if not then then after the fourth of july, however they're pretty even with frost taking the edge in nighthold on most bosses. The only thing that has me concerned, and it's a concern for the class not just frost, but the one fight that requires a decent amount of movement in various phases or cause of forced mechanics is Augur(didn't kill Elisande or Gul'dan on mythic, so this is based off personal xp).....and we're both bottom of the barrel for that fight. With the mix of things I've heard about ToS being a high movement raid....we may both end up sucking.