Do you want 10 man raid back?

[Deleted]

No one asks for 10-man back, people are asking for 10-man Mythic back. Feel the difference.

Nope. They weren't, you probably didn't play back then.

It's not very nice to lie.

Yes they were. If you mean you want to lump an expansion together to make your case rather than the individual raids, you have to be explicit. So... nope. Your statement was factually wrong.

And yes, i did play.

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Lol 10m was a fuckup. You needed spwcific setups. If 2 people didnt show up you could disband your raid. Only 1 melee per group, some top grps had 0. Balancing was a mess, having 1 or 2 or 3 healers could make mechanics trivial. We had dps checks 25m groups couldnt beat, but were easily done by 1-7-2. Some 25m fights took 50% longer than their 10m versions...

And 20m raiding means 14 dds per 2 tanks. In 10m raids ir was often 5 dps per 2 tanks...

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Why? Just means more tanks are needed. And tanks already are rare.

15m would just mean bigger problems to find tanks....

That is ridiculous. If there were more raid spots, more people would be willing to main tank. Still... that is a very far straw you are grasping at. Actually having more people required to tank would also mean lower queue times for all kinds of content aswell. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Deleted]

You cannot balance around different raid sizes, this is something we seen for years when 10man raiding was a thing.
That is the whole reason only 20m exists.

[Elim Garak]

It's not very nice to lie.

Yes they were. If you mean you want to lump an expansion together to make your case rather than the individual raids, you have to be explicit.

What's with all the goal post moves? Side-raids, lump together? The one who claimed that raids were 1 size before - wasn't explicit in what they meant.
Raids never were 1-size.
Even if you then move the goal post to "mythic raids were 1-size" - well no they weren't, there were no mythic raids until MoP. Raids were 1 difficulty back in the day, but not 1 size. Multiple difficulties appeared in WoTLK. And now we have what we have, but never in the history of WoW raids were 1 size.

[MyndZero]

I really do. It's way more enjoyable than 20man and still has the same difficulty.

[Volardelis]

10 man raiding was awesome, and removing it was one of Blizzard's many giant post-WoD fuckups that served NO PURPOSE other than to screw over the playerbase. The 10/25 split was a good system. The only real issue was for a long time there was no incentive to raid 25 man, which is what warforged was for. The switch to 20 man devastated my server to the point where we ended up fighting the recruitment boss more than any other for the whole expansion, forcing us to eventually transfer.

Demanding forced higher raid sizes is nothing more than elitism and snobbery. If Final Fantasy 14 can have small raid sizes (8 man), why can't WoW? 10 man was fine. Blizzard once again attacked a non-issue at the expense of the players.

The reason why they made mythic raiding 20 man was because of the balancing issues they had with 10 / 25 man SoO. Some bosses like Thok were significantly easier on 25 man than 10 man. More healers = more healing cd's = longer phase 1's. (hence the numerous nerfs to 10 man heroic Thok and blackfuse). Another reason was so they can make more interesting encounters for mythic and may even require certain classes (blast furnace for example). Can you imagine a 10 man version of mythic Krosus or mythic Star Augur?

The real issue was blizzard merging the loot tables of 10 and 25 man back in Cata. That is what really screwed themselves over. Originally 10 and 25 man were different beasts. 25 man ICC rewarded better gear than 10 man ICC (10 man heroic = 25 man normal in terms of loot).

But you can believe what you want to believe.

[Detheavn]

Hello folks,
Do you want 10 man raid back to WoW for [Mythic] Progression or not if "not" please provide us your reasons.

I wouldn't mind 10 man raids, as long as the atmosphere would feel right. Karazhan and Zul'Aman were aresome raids which would feel much too crowded for 10 man. If some raids then were mythic 10 only... I think I'd be OK with that.

[ImpTaimer]

Is this thread satire?

10man never went anywhere. It's arguably more difficult to 10man raid than 20-man now that all raids since WoD are balanced around 20-man. It's also harder to gear 10-man raids since you can't afford to carry dead weight so funneling loot to "your buddies" hurts the raid. The number of tanks required to raid since Cata never changes. It will always be 2, and requiring more or less than 2 is a design flaw / cheese.

Difficulty sliders were always a mistake outside upscaled or downscaled content. Timewalker is the perfect fix for "dead" content while allowing higher level players to play with lower level players. Heroic for upscaling content to current max level and enabling keystone scaling. Mythic dungeons never needed to exist outside keystone, it's just arbitrary padding. Ulduar hardmodes are what people wanted for raiding, not Heroic or Mythic.

The biggest arbitrary hurdle with current 20-man Mythic is not the raid size. It's the disabled crossrealm and lockout system more cancerous than the previous lockout system that only prevented you from going into raids with a boss you already killed. Most casual raiders are cross-realm since WoD (earlier if you count LFR). So if you want to do Mythics with your friends on a different server you have to pay the troll-toll or skip it till it's not relevant anymore.

PvP has been a shit-show since Cata so Blizzard insists on padding PvE content with difficulty sliders. Holinka is gone now, but who knows how long (if ever) PvP becomes something to do when you're bored of PvE / locked out of everything for the week.

You cannot balance around different raid sizes, this is something we seen for years when 10man raiding was a thing.
That is the whole reason only 20m exists.

20-man exists because 25-man was always a horrible number to balance around and had nothing to do with 10-man. Even vanilla had 5-10-20-40.

5man dungeons. 10-man raids. 20-man "heroic" raids.

[Tiwack]

Sure but the raid would have to be specifically for 10man and not exist in multiple difficulties and sizes. There's always going to be issues with balancing and it only becomes more apparent when they have to be flexible in their design and reiterate again on multiple difficulties.

10man was a good entry level for players looking to do more group-content past heroic dungeons but who were intimidated by the larger raids, guilds and just looking to get their feet wet. Like a unique 10man-experience-only like Kara or Zul'Aman were. That said it was a joy for guilds to be able to test possible recruits looking to join by running the current tier in the 10man version... It just got botched with the shared lockout and eventually even further with the loot making it unsustainable for big guilds. So it's not worth the mess and to avoid splitting the scene or turning it into a joke it would have to be only one definite size and difficulty.

What's your take OP? Also with just a y/n question I expected a poll. With your specific question in mind it would be an obvious no. No-one wants people arguing endlessly over who's world/realm first is the one that counts because blizz suck at balancing their game.

[Deleted]

You cannot balance around different raid sizes, this is something we seen for years when 10man raiding was a thing.
That is the whole reason only 20m exists.

And this an issue because? are you part of method or something like that?, how can you balance raids around different classes´s performance then?, why do you not cap ilevel so that everyone taking part in that so called "competition" plays in the same level?

Also the real reason behind just one size difficulty is less work to do, that is all that is behind that, because two sizes in raiding were too much work for a part of the game that has such a low weight in the game general revenue.

[Deleted]

What's with all the goal post moves? Side-raids, lump together? The one who claimed that raids were 1 size before - wasn't explicit in what they meant.
Raids never were 1-size.
Even if you then move the goal post to "mythic raids were 1-size" - well no they weren't, there were no mythic raids until MoP. Raids were 1 difficulty back in the day, but not 1 size. Multiple difficulties appeared in WoTLK. And now we have what we have, but never in the history of WoW raids were 1 size.

I'm not moving the goal post, you were. Your statement is factually untrue when you say raids were never 1 size.

For example, Kharazan was only 10 man. SSC was only 25 man. This invalidates your statement that raids were never just one size. Those raids had only 1 size and 1 difficulty.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I wish there were more raid encounters designed around 3 tanks. Guilds often have a shortage of tanks for high M+ (I should know, as one of those tanks with a wait list some nights) because they can only guarantee two tanks a spot on raid team. The one good thing about 10 man raids was that it kept the 1-5 ratio for tanks.

[Tojara]

If they could go back in time it's highly likely they would have had 10, or 15 man raids from the start. 40 was a massive mistake and to a lesser extent 25. I believe they outright said that 15 would have been plausible, but their reasoning is they didn't want to disrupt guilds in 25 man raids from potentially shaving off 10 people, and thought it would be better that 10 mans add basically 10 people. I suppose the logic is it's less disruptive to add people (even though it's incredibly hard to add that many people), than it was to tell people to fuck off.

Whatever the reason was I preferred 10 man because you generally never had to recruit. I've ran stable 40 man and 25 man raids up until WoTLk, and 10 man was just so much easier to manage logistically.

I can certainly see why they did it, but part of the reason is surely because they were lazy. I don't really think they give two shits about the hardcore raiding community crying and whining about whether 10 or 25 man was the real 'difficulty' on any particular boss, they just didn't want to fine tune two different raid sizes. While their was endless discussion about what was more difficult, it probably was just that, too lazy to actually balance it properly. Anybody who raided 10 man at the start of Cataclysm can attest to how fucking terrible the tuning was on launch. While the difficulty was much better after that, the endless discussions and debates regarding whether or not it was balanced on 10 man (whether too easy or too hard) was brought up for every single boss.

It's puzzling to me they never made the change to lower raid sizes because it most certainly increases participation in raiding as a whole. It's daunting trying to get 20+ people together, it's not that bad to get around 10 people together because natural social circles generally gravitate towards that number anyways. Flexible raiding fixes this to a degree, but the difficulty options end at heroic. Note that the increase in participation wouldn't really be that much larger, regardless of whether it was 10 or 25, the 'hardcore' (read mythic) raiding scene was still really small.

One of the biggest reasons why I'd advise against it (not counting raid design) is because of the shear amount of classes/specializations the game has. WoW has ESSENTIALLY 36 unique classes in the game (specializations), and only 20 raid spots at any single time. Yeah some of those classes can fairly easily change to a different specialization and be fairly competitive (which is harder in this expansion with AP/Legendaries) but some classes not so much. Meanwhile you have a game like FF14 that has 8 man raiding, but only 15 unique classes (jobs) in the game. The ratio might seem just as bad in the game, but any individual character can be any fucking job in the game. Yeah you can't realistically main them all, but aside from a couple slots of gear, there is a decent amount of overlap that makes transitioning to something that might not be in favor a lot easier, than say WoW. 10 man raiding in WoW would probably have worked better if they made transitioning to other specializations in your main class a lot easier, and/or they just didn't have as many classes as they do.

[Elim Garak]

I'm not moving the goal post, you were. Your statement is factually untrue when you say raids were never 1 size.

Of course you are, I'm very consistent in what I say, read again from the beginning. My statements are facts.

For example, Kharazan was only 10 man. SSC was only 25 man. This invalidates your statement that raids were never just one size. Those raids had only 1 size and 1 difficulty.

You listed two raids of different size from a single expansion and then say raids were 1 size and those raids invalidate my statement that raids weren't 1 size as you demonstrated by listing two raids of different sizes.

And while you're at it you moved the goal post again. Now it's about the SAME raid having different versions of different sizes. Do you ever tire?

[Deleted]

Of course you are, I'm very consistent in what I say, read again from the beginning. My statements are facts.

You listed two raids of different size from a single expansion and then say raids were 1 size and those raids invalidate my statement that raids weren't 1 size as you demonstrated by listing two raids of different sizes.

And while you're at it you moved the goal post again. Now it's about the SAME raid having different versions of different sizes. Do you ever tire?

There we are. That is YOU moving goal posts. Your statement was factually wrong. You never mentioned expansions, you only mentioned raids. You are lumping them together.

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Raids never were 1 size

This is factually not true. Don't try to weasel your way out.

As i proved there were raids with 1 size and 1 difficulty. You are the one that needs to move the goal post or learn to understand what you are saying.
What is even the point of lumping all raids together and say they never had only one size, like making an average of some sort? You must've been knee deep on something to come to that thought. Raids exist as single raids. Single raids have had single sizes. Different raids have had the same size (kharazan and zul'aman for example) and different sizes. There is just no defense or logic to that statement you made... unless you move the goalpost... wich you must to make it have any sense.

[Deleted]

Both 10 and 25 HC. They was better than Mythic.

[Deleted]

Both 10 and 25 HC. They was better than Mythic.

No they weren't... 10HC was always either easier or harder than 25HC. You can't have a well-tuned raid when you have only 10 people (i.e., 10 classes max) in a raid. I'd be OK-ish with bringing 25 back for Mythic, but even that will be difficult because of current roster sizes.

[Deleted]

No they weren't... 10HC was always either easier or harder than 25HC. You can't have a well-tuned raid when you have only 10 people (i.e., 10 classes max) in a raid. I'd be OK-ish with bringing 25 back for Mythic, but even that will be difficult because of current roster sizes.

This has never caused problems during 5 years, you have to stop telling shit.

If you love the current Mythic its your problem, that does not mean that its necessarily the best difficulty ever.

That the 10 is more or less easy compared to the 25, its annecdotic, especially when the management of the raid is not at all the same. In the end its especially that all the guilds could do HC, at present how much cannot because of the fact that its strictly 20 fucking man ?

How many 10HC Guild have closed doors because of 20M raid size and management?
How many 25HC Guild have closed doors because of 20M difficulty ?

The Mythic is cool, but its far from the old HC which were globally more interesting.
The fact that it is more difficult that both 10/25HC doesnt make it better.

This changes are just the more stupid from blizzard, with the suppression of the reforge.

[Otimus]

I'd rather they let non-mythic raids scale down to 8 players and let dungeons scale up to 8-10 players.

[Nero Stormchester]

My guild would loooooove 10 man mythic. We're fairly casual, and have only about 15 people who are up to mythic standards and are tired of recruiting assholes who just gear up with us in HC, only to bail after. With M10 we could do mythic and even have backups. With that being said , i do want m20 to stay for those for whom it's a better fit.

[Deleted]

This has never caused problems during 5 years, you have to stop telling shit.

Yeah, this was just the most-often posted issue of "10-mans don't count as WF", "25HC is the only WF difficulty that counts", etc.

If you love the current Mythic its your problem, that does not mean that its necessarily the best difficulty ever.

Technically, that is YOUR problem, as Blizzard has decided to make that the current version of raiding. You want it differently, so not really MY problem

That the 10 is more or less easy compared to the 25, its annecdotic, especially when the management of the raid is not at all the same. In the end its especially that all the guilds could do HC, at present how much cannot because of the fact that its strictly 20 fucking man ?

That's more because of falsely put guild-pride. There is enough raiders out there to organize 20-person raid groups, you just have to merge with others. We did that at the end of MoP and it worked out quite nicely.

How many 10HC Guild have closed doors because of 20M raid size and management?
How many 25HC Guild have closed doors because of 20M difficulty ?

Does it matter? A bit like in real life: Adapt or die All that did was allocating those that still wanted to raid to other guilds that were actually able to do the organization and roster of the required 20-man raid.

The Mythic is cool, but its far from the old HC which were globally more interesting.
The fact that it is more difficult that both 10/25HC doesnt make it better.

It's personal preference. For me, the fact that current Mythic is more difficult than the previous 10/25HC (which is debatable also) does make it better. I like the challenge. If it is too difficult for you, then why not stick to heroic. There you can easily do a 10-man raid.

This changes are just the more stupid from blizzard, with the suppression of the reforge.

Reforge wouldn't work with the current loot system where you actually discard 99% of your drops anyway. They went away from "reforging few drops" and towards "getting a lot of drops and select those that are best for you".

Lastly, you're a bit late with your feedback on raid size given that these changes have already been done in the end of MoP/beginning of WoD. Basically I could use your argument from the beginning: It has worked for 3+ years now.