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  1. #21
    Banned Saverem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacekeeper Benhir View Post
    Demon Hunter re-tuning was expected. I'm sure Sco knew that. No one expected it to stay broken. Even after adjustments, VDHs will still do way more damage than they did in 7.2.
    Lack of damage wasn't really the reason why they weren't being taken for progression though, it's their shitty mitigation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Monk hotfix changed nothing, a minor nerf to their ability to cheese spell based tank killing mechanics.
    Actually the nerf to their 2p was pretty devastating.

  2. #22
    Scarab Lord Peacekeeper Benhir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saverem View Post
    Lack of damage wasn't really the reason why they weren't being taken for progression though, it's their shitty mitigation.
    I'd say DH mitigation was sketchy in 7.1, fair in 7.1.5, and solid in 7.2 (which brought buff to magic DR).
    The reason DHs weren't a first choice at the high end is that they did not bring anything extra as far as being able to cheese mechanics or somesuch. That's the reason Sco gave for still leaving them ranked lower than his top tier, even though they get some QoL gains this patch with auto-consuming souls (no more wastage) and a legendary that could give them extra charges of Spikes and Empower Wards.

  3. #23
    His points are spot on, Monk will always remain good simply because of their damage erasure mechanic - more than anything they'll be limited by their playstyle which can be rather fast paced and wacky.

    Druids will always be right behind them in terms of effective health.

    Warriors will always be just solid and middle of the road. They've been that way since BC and it's not going to change, though the ignore pain mechanic does scale nicely with health.

    Paladins are pretty close with warriors - mostly due to the block mechanic - and with their self heal are looking good.

    Demon hunters are mainly limited by soul-shard generation. If it's too consistent then you'll never take a healer with you as they'll be able to heal-cheese just about anything. If it's too light they can get really squishy really fast, now with the auto-consumption they are in a very good place - especially with how fracture is working with spirit bomb.

  4. #24
    dh will never be relevant as long as it has the shitty %parry on dspikes instead of a stronger %DR (vs autos the %parry is just absurdly strong, vs flat damage DSpikes are absurdly weak). devs learnt this in mop when they had to change druids out of their useless %dodge savage defense, but the new devs didnt learn that mistake yet

    you will get shrekt by any kind of physical nuke (think cenarius/odyn spears or aluriel annihilate), guess what a lot of bosses in ToS have, frequent physical nukes

    the end

    as to why tanks seem balanced now (they dont but its certainly viable to tank it with anything nowadays at least).. its outdated content. bet a warlock pet could tank it by now.
    Last edited by Mionelol; 2017-06-20 at 10:59 AM.

  5. #25
    He is talking about at top tier. People not looking for that type of edge worry way too much about stuff like this. Obviously druid was way too strong for the whole expansion but all tanks have been capable of unique and amazing things the whole expansion. It's even better now for sure, but a lot of the changes made in this patch don't pertain to defense as much as people think.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    His points are spot on, Monk will always remain good simply because of their damage erasure mechanic - more than anything they'll be limited by their playstyle which can be rather fast paced and wacky.

    Druids will always be right behind them in terms of effective health.

    Warriors will always be just solid and middle of the road. They've been that way since BC and it's not going to change, though the ignore pain mechanic does scale nicely with health.

    Paladins are pretty close with warriors - mostly due to the block mechanic - and with their self heal are looking good.

    Demon hunters are mainly limited by soul-shard generation. If it's too consistent then you'll never take a healer with you as they'll be able to heal-cheese just about anything. If it's too light they can get really squishy really fast, now with the auto-consumption they are in a very good place - especially with how fracture is working with spirit bomb.
    Ehm... Warriors are not middle of the pack right now though, more like dead last.
    Also, DHs are not limited by anything but their worthless physical mitigation.

  7. #27
    Scarab Lord Peacekeeper Benhir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Ehm... Warriors are not middle of the pack right now though, more like dead last.
    Also, DHs are not limited by anything but their worthless physical mitigation.
    Sco's point was that there's not much difference between 1st place, middle of the pack, and dead last.
    There's nothing wrong with DH physical mitigation. You could argue they had issues with magic before 7.2, but they are solid with both now.
    Last edited by Peacekeeper Benhir; 2017-06-20 at 11:30 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacekeeper Benhir View Post
    Sco's point was that there's not much difference between 1st place, middle of the pack, and dead last.
    There's nothing wrong with DH physical mitigation. You could argue they had issues with magic before 7.2, but they are solid with both now.
    The balance is probably better than ever but that doesn't change the fact that warriors suffer during fights with lost of magic and DH during fights with mainly physical damage.

    Now, tanking has been made so simple this expantion that it doesn't matter really but it's still frustrating to see how they design some tanks for one niche while others are jack of all trades but still just as good or better at thoes niches.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Ehm... Warriors are not middle of the pack right now though, more like dead last.
    Also, DHs are not limited by anything but their worthless physical mitigation.
    I don't really tank (I have it as an off-spec that I hardly ever use) but why not just take SB and use that to mitigate the large hits on DHs?

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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    The balance is probably better than ever but that doesn't change the fact that warriors suffer during fights with lost of magic and DH during fights with mainly physical damage.

    Now, tanking has been made so simple this expantion that it doesn't matter really but it's still frustrating to see how they design some tanks for one niche while others are jack of all trades but still just as good or better at thoes niches.
    Warriors suffered only from sustained magical damage (and the difference wasn't even that much as people tends to say it was with propper talents/playstyle)
    I solo tanked Star Augur before the 15% nerf as a warrior, It wasn't even that hard

    50% magic DR on spell reflect makes warrior really solid against frequent magic bursts
    Shield block is godly against blockable physical damage (38/76 % reduction)
    Ignore Pain is still strong on top of our toolkit, right now we have way more rage generation than before 7.1.5 Not to mention you won't waste that much absorb from capping it than say self healing from Veng DH or Blood DK
    Last Stand and Shield wall plays amazingly with Anger management when you need big CD relatively often

    Warriors right now lack only some EHP (5-7 % buff would be OK)

    That said, I must disagree with Sco's point of wiew on prot warriors, I would put them at least above Veng DH
    But I agree that Tank balance is way better now and it shouldn't really matter what tank you choose for progression

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Nero Stormchester View Post
    I don't really tank (I have it as an off-spec that I hardly ever use) but why not just take SB and use that to mitigate the large hits on DHs?
    Healing health back is not the same as mitigating damage and it's also hard to heal anything back if you're dead.
    It's not like DHs do not work though, they just do work as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal View Post
    Warriors suffered only from sustained magical damage (and the difference wasn't even that much as people tends to say it was with propper talents/playstyle)
    I solo tanked Star Augur before the 15% nerf as a warrior, It wasn't even that hard

    50% magic DR on spell reflect makes warrior really solid against frequent magic bursts
    Shield block is godly against blockable physical damage (38/76 % reduction)
    Ignore Pain is still strong on top of our toolkit, right now we have way more rage generation than before 7.1.5 Not to mention you won't waste that much absorb from capping it than say self healing from Veng DH or Blood DK
    Last Stand and Shield wall plays amazingly with Anger management when you need big CD relatively often

    Warriors right now lack only some EHP (5-7 % buff would be OK)

    That said, I must disagree with Sco's point of wiew on prot warriors, I would put them at least above Veng DH
    But I agree that Tank balance is way better now and it shouldn't really matter what tank you choose for progression
    No, of course they work. It is still annoying to have these weaknesses when other tanks are designed to have none however.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    No, of course they work. It is still annoying to have these weaknesses when other tanks are designed to have none however.
    Every tank have some:
    Druids and DKs have awful mobility
    Pala/warr have lower HP than others
    Monks lacks raid utility and their cooldowns on strong defensive abilities is really long (but lowered I know) or need legendary to not suck

    All in all ToS looks good, pick what do you like

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by NoobistTV-Metro View Post
    He is talking about at top tier. People not looking for that type of edge worry way too much about stuff like this. Obviously druid was way too strong for the whole expansion but all tanks have been capable of unique and amazing things the whole expansion. It's even better now for sure, but a lot of the changes made in this patch don't pertain to defense as much as people think.
    Nah, sorry. Playing Nighthold mythic with or without a Druid was extremely relevant even for guilds that killed bosses weeks/months later. And the bottom tanks were shitty as hell. It was really bad, but hopefully will be bearable for ToS.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal View Post
    Every tank have some:
    Druids and DKs have awful mobility
    Pala/warr have lower HP than others
    Monks lacks raid utility and their cooldowns on strong defensive abilities is really long (but lowered I know) or need legendary to not suck

    All in all ToS looks good, pick what do you like
    HP hardly matter, druid mobility is fine and monks are not hindered by their CDs.
    I'm glad you like how your warrior works but I do not agree with you.

    It really doesn't affect me much though.
    I rarely tank and my guild runs with a monk and a druid.

    It doesn't change the fact that Blizzards design is flawed here.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Saverem View Post
    Actually the nerf to their 2p was pretty devastating.
    No, it was not...
    On hard content, most orbs will come from dmg taken anyway, this does not so much for high end progress... It will just scale down monk on lower content, where it would've been op af :P (then again other tank classes don't need any heal on lower content, too...)

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    HP hardly matter, druid mobility is fine and monks are not hindered by their CDs.
    I'm glad you like how your warrior works but I do not agree with you.

    It really doesn't affect me much though.
    I rarely tank and my guild runs with a monk and a druid.

    It doesn't change the fact that Blizzards design is flawed here.
    Druid mobility was fine for NH, because you needed no mobility whatsoever. Now that they can't skill Disp Beast anymore their in combat mobility is pretty meh and we have seen fights in the past (Helya, Odyn as the most recent examples) where this was relevant. In general I feel that the differences in tank balance get exaggerated a lot.

    BTW druids bring another mechanical weakness, which is constant bleed damage (physical damage that ignores armor) and that is a thing on Harjatan. We will see how that is going to be tuned, but it could actually turn out to be an issue.

    I don't think warrior is in the best place, simply because they scale worst with damage intake, as most of their AM is flat and their resource generation doesn't depend on damage intake as much anymore. So if you tuned them to be fine for mythic progression, they would just roflstomp everything below, which seems to be something blizz doesn't want.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Greif9 View Post
    Druid mobility was fine for NH, because you needed no mobility whatsoever. Now that they can't skill Disp Beast anymore their in combat mobility is pretty meh and we have seen fights in the past (Helya, Odyn as the most recent examples) where this was relevant. In general I feel that the differences in tank balance get exaggerated a lot.

    BTW druids bring another mechanical weakness, which is constant bleed damage (physical damage that ignores armor) and that is a thing on Harjatan. We will see how that is going to be tuned, but it could actually turn out to be an issue.

    I don't think warrior is in the best place, simply because they scale worst with damage intake, as most of their AM is flat and their resource generation doesn't depend on damage intake as much anymore. So if you tuned them to be fine for mythic progression, they would just roflstomp everything below, which seems to be something blizz doesn't want.
    That might be true but that would then also mean a rather silly design issue.
    But yes, the balance is not that bad it's more annoying if anything.

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