What I would do if I were the lead PvP developer:

[Deathquoi]

While those changes would change pvp for the better. A lot of those changes affect the whole game, not just pvp. By now people have to accept that pvp is just a sideshow, it has been dead for two expansions in a row, and wow won't be around for much longer. Not long enough for such radical changes.

Good ideas, but WoW is not a PvP centric game. None of this will happen, unfortunately.

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Early in vanilla wpvp was the only pvp, and it was definitely a big part of the game. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Are you serious, dude? Yes, for less than a year after launch, WPvP was the only PvP. Wow. Then BGs were released in June 2005 and people promptly stopped giving a fuck about WPvP. Don't try to school me on the game.

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Every response you've given here is false or has little to basis on reality.

Cataclysm release was JUST after WOTLK which had 12 million subscribers and had the highest peak of WPvP activity in WoW since WoW's release, WPvP began to die after Cataclysm was released, coupled with the loss of 2 million subscribers in 2 months.

Your stubborn claims about BGs being what killed WPvP makes absolutely no sense since that wouldn't be possible, World PvP became even more popular years after they were introduced back then. So no, your claims about this is false and there are no statistics to show for it either.

BGs are World PvP in an instanced format.

I believe you just wanted to dismiss everything and to pick my ideas apart because you didn't like them, you were absolutely not interested in discussing any of the ideas and was hellbent on them not being possible or good in any way or form.

I'm just going to ask you to leave and stop trying to pick an argument on this thread, goodbye.

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The majority had to deal with a sudden change like TBC, why can't the majority deal with a sudden change like this? They ARE all for change after all right? Since they supported the changes that came in TBC, they can support new and different changes that would come out with an idea like this as well.

That's another thing that began to tear this game apart, worrying about what the majority wants, nobody will even dare touch arenas for fear of players unsubscribing so they have to leave it in and it has become very stale since there's only so many different ways you can make arenas "interesting" and "balanced" over the past 10 years. It just isn't practical anymore in my opinion.

Because the majority doesn't want your proposed changes. There is no majority of players out there saying "man it would be so dope if they completely changed the game to try and bring back world PvP." It's just not there.

[Perudo]

Every response you've given here is false or has little to basis on reality.

Cataclysm release was JUST after WOTLK which had 12 million subscribers and had the highest peak of WPvP activity in WoW since WoW's release, WPvP began to die after Cataclysm was released, coupled with the loss of 2 million subscribers in 2 months.

Your stubborn claims about BGs being what killed WPvP makes absolutely no sense since that wouldn't be possible, World PvP became even more popular years after they were introduced back then. So no, your claims about this is false and there are no statistics to show for it either.

BGs are World PvP in an instanced format.

I believe you just wanted to dismiss everything and to pick my ideas apart because you didn't like them, you were absolutely not interested in discussing any of the ideas and was hellbent on them not being possible or good in any way or form.

I'm just going to ask you to leave and stop trying to pick an argument on this thread, goodbye.

So you think that all those people that quit in early cataclysm did it just because Wpvp died?

I think it is more in line that many of those players felt that they had "completed" warcraft as a game, with the lich king defeated and all that.
Also another point would be the increased difficulty in regular dungeons.

I would say that BGs is part of why wpvp has died down, but also that the playerbase have changed over time. (and also the faction balance on many servers)
Now most people want to be as efficient as possible while doing things so they ignore members of the other faction to finish up whatever they are doing.

Battlegrounds are instanced PvP, yes. World pvp only occur in the world.

By reading your suggestions, I can understand you basically want vanilla pvp back.

And as most other in this thread have pointed out, many of your changes is not possible to do as a PvP Developer since the impact the PvE part of the game.

[Deleted]

I personally liked how PvP worked in MoP and WoD (minus Ashran).

Nothing needed change outside of rewards imo.

[Deleted]

Are you serious, dude? Yes, for less than a year after launch, WPvP was the only PvP. Wow. Then BGs were released in June 2005 and people promptly stopped giving a fuck about WPvP. Don't try to school me on the game.

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Because the majority doesn't want your proposed changes. There is no majority of players out there saying "man it would be so dope if they completely changed the game to try and bring back world PvP." It's just not there.

People said the same exact thing about arenas when they first came out in TBC, time to move along and let something else take the spotlight, I'm sick to death of arenas after one decade of doing it.

Time to have something new, fresh and exciting to do for PvP that'd involve the whole community instead of just the 70k players that we currently have queuing for 3s on the arena ladders.

There is no reason why we shouldn't change the PvP from being focused on arenas to being focused on something new, people don't like it? There is always something else they can play to get their arena fix from.

This game wasn't meant to be confined to a simple 3v3 format for a decade, it was meant to have it's entire world utilized and explored by sociable players who worked together to achieve a common goal. It's like I've already said before, the original developers never developed any of the mechanics, abilities, map designs or character animations/movements for an Esport ready game for such a small and confined room with only a maximum of 6 players. They never knew that in the future that an Esport competition would arise and that their game would have to rapidly adapt to it, and with that came the hamfisted attempt at creating a poor example of a MOBAesque style arena map and slapping resilience all over the PvP gear.

That in my opinion was a terrible way to go about creating a new format for arenas and because of this, arenas has never truly been balanced for decades, all comps will have a certain comp they CANNOT beat, no matter how much time and skill the dedicate to it, no matter how well they play or utilize different techniques or tactics, it simply won't work because changing the abilities and mechanics would require screwing around with PvE stuff and we all know that PvE players go into a complete tantrum if we do, remember what happened when the legendary cloak in MOP required 2 BG wins? Lol.

The majority/minority argument is a terrible argument when the "majority" of players don't feel involved in the community, don't feel involved in the game and just do it for that one certain PvP mode called arenas, that isn't the community that represents WoW and they have no loyalty to this game and will quickly switch to a newer game if it's superior to the arenas game mode. Veteran players who've been playing for as long as I have are more loyal and have stuck with them through thick and thin no matter what because we care about the game for what it is.




Notice how quickly subscribers have dropped up and down in the space of a few months compared to how subscribers dropped during the period between 2012 - 2015? That's a representative of how little the newer players who joined this game recently have invested into this game and that they're willing to drop the game immediately after experiencing something they do not like. And now if you notice the period between 2005 - mid 2011, you can see that there aren't that many sudden spikes in the numbers as it goes up or down and there's actually no downs at all, just a constant incline of subscribers because they enjoyed the content and they never felt the need to quit.

And that counts for both PvP and PvE obviously but then you have to notice something, the arena PvP participation during the period from MOP all the way to Legion has dwindled and there is a forum post showing statistics and explaining in depth as to why this is happening and some of the points I raised have been pointed out in this thread as well:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752538520

Furthermore it means that while the PvP participation is dwindling, less resources are being spent into keeping it alive and instead are diverted into PvE, hence the reason why we've been seeing positive outcomes in PvE and not in PvP, one look at the first page of any arena forum in the world will speak thousands of words on the state of PvP in general and that isn't only restricted to arena but every other aspect as well.

In conclusion I believe that the only way to get ourselves out of this slump is to somehow create a new PvP mode or reuse an old existing PvP mode to entice the entire community of WoW that includes the PvE/RP/farming or grinding communities as well into taking part and increasing our numbers in PvP participation, people are clearly getting bored of arenas or are getting angry because of PvP imbalance due to PvE designers/class designers not taking notice of PvP consequences of their actions due to the fact that people are beginning to care less about PvP and more about other areas like I've said already.

Which is why I've suggested the ideas that I've suggested in the original post.

[Deathquoi]

People said the same exact thing about arenas when they first came out in TBC, time to move along and let something else take the spotlight, I'm sick to death of arenas after one decade of doing it.

Time to have something new, fresh and exciting to do for PvP that'd involve the whole community instead of just the 70k players that we currently have queuing for 3s on the arena ladders.

There is no reason why we shouldn't change the PvP from being focused on arenas to being focused on something new, people don't like it? There is always something else they can play to get their arena fix from.

This game wasn't meant to be confined to a simple 3v3 format for a decade, it was meant to have it's entire world utilized and explored by sociable players who worked together to achieve a common goal. It's like I've already said before, the original developers never developed any of the mechanics, abilities, map designs or character animations/movements for an Esport ready game for such a small and confined room with only a maximum of 6 players. They never knew that in the future that an Esport competition would arise and that their game would have to rapidly adapt to it, and with that came the hamfisted attempt at creating a poor example of a MOBAesque style arena map and slapping resilience all over the PvP gear.

That in my opinion was a terrible way to go about creating a new format for arenas and because of this, arenas has never truly been balanced for decades, all comps will have a certain comp they CANNOT beat, no matter how much time and skill the dedicate to it, no matter how well they play or utilize different techniques or tactics, it simply won't work because changing the abilities and mechanics would require screwing around with PvE stuff and we all know that PvE players go into a complete tantrum if we do, remember what happened when the legendary cloak in MOP required 2 BG wins? Lol.

The majority/minority argument is a terrible argument when the "majority" of players don't feel involved in the community, don't feel involved in the game and just do it for that one certain PvP mode called arenas, that isn't the community that represents WoW and they have no loyalty to this game and will quickly switch to a newer game if it's superior to the arenas game mode. Veteran players who've been playing for as long as I have are more loyal and have stuck with them through thick and thin no matter what because we care about the game for what it is.




Notice how quickly subscribers have dropped up and down in the space of a few months compared to how subscribers dropped during the period between 2012 - 2015? That's a representative of how little the newer players who joined this game recently have invested into this game and that they're willing to drop the game immediately after experiencing something they do not like. And now if you notice the period between 2005 - mid 2011, you can see that there aren't that many sudden spikes in the numbers as it goes up or down and there's actually no downs at all, just a constant incline of subscribers because they enjoyed the content and they never felt the need to quit.

And that counts for both PvP and PvE obviously but then you have to notice something, the arena PvP participation during the period from MOP all the way to Legion has dwindled and there is a forum post showing statistics and explaining in depth as to why this is happening and some of the points I raised have been pointed out in this thread as well:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752538520

Furthermore it means that while the PvP participation is dwindling, less resources are being spent into keeping it alive and instead are diverted into PvE, hence the reason why we've been seeing positive outcomes in PvE and not in PvP, one look at the first page of any arena forum in the world will speak thousands of words on the state of PvP in general and that isn't only restricted to arena but every other aspect as well.

In conclusion I believe that the only way to get ourselves out of this slump is to somehow create a new PvP mode or reuse an old existing PvP mode to entice the entire community of WoW that includes the PvE/RP/farming or grinding communities as well into taking part and increasing our numbers in PvP participation, people are clearly getting bored of arenas or are getting angry because of PvP imbalance due to PvE designers/class designers not taking notice of PvP consequences of their actions due to the fact that people are beginning to care less about PvP and more about other areas like I've said already.

Which is why I've suggested the ideas that I've suggested in the original post.

Dude I do not have time to read your walls of text trying to explain that the reason people stopped playing WoW is because of world PvP and arenas. One, figure out how to be more concise. Two, citing a forum thread as evidence that a majority of players want world PvP back is lol. Three, there has never been more separation between PvE and PvP balancing. Four, you're talking about sweeping changes that affect ALL players, not just PvPers. I don't give a good goddamn about world PvP and if you're gonna try to tell me you want to take away my flying mounts to spur World PvP you can get lost. Your arguments don't make any sense. You're crying about balance while trying to go back to the least balanced form of PvP in existence.

[Deleted]

Dude I do not have time to read your walls of text trying to explain that the reason people stopped playing WoW is because of world PvP and arenas. One, figure out how to be more concise. Two, citing a forum thread as evidence that a majority of players want world PvP back is lol. Three, there has never been more separation between PvE and PvP balancing. Four, you're talking about sweeping changes that affect ALL players, not just PvPers. I don't give a good goddamn about world PvP and if you're gonna try to tell me you want to take away my flying mounts to spur World PvP you can get lost. Your arguments don't make any sense. You're crying about balance while trying to go back to the least balanced form of PvP in existence.

So in short you're saying this:

"I don't care what you have to say, I know I'm right and it can't be debated at all, I won't read any evidence or statistics showing that you are correct so just accept what I'm saying as truth and stop now."

Well, thanks, but no thanks.

This is a discussion thread and if you don't want to use evidence and would prefer to base your arguments on feelings and personal experience instead of numbers and proof... Then perhaps this thread is not for you.

[Deathquoi]

So in short you're saying this:

"I don't care what you have to say, I know I'm right and it can't be debated at all, I won't read any evidence or statistics showing that you are correct so just accept what I'm saying as truth and stop now."

Well, thanks, but no thanks.

This is a discussion thread and if you don't want to use evidence and would prefer to base your arguments on feelings and personal experience instead of numbers and proof... Then perhaps this thread is not for you.

No, I'm saying you need to shorten up your posts and not write a fucking novel every time you have something to say. You don't have any statistics or evidence showing that you're correct, you have subscription numbers and forum threads and you're literally using the fact that subscriptions declined at some point following the introduction of arenas as proof that arenas are bad for WoW. You're not interested in discussion, you want people to agree with you.

[Deleted]

No, I'm saying you need to shorten up your posts and not write a fucking novel every time you have something to say. You don't have any statistics or evidence showing that you're correct, you have subscription numbers and forum threads and you're literally using the fact that subscriptions declined at some point following the introduction of arenas as proof that arenas are bad for WoW. You're not interested in discussion, you want people to agree with you.

What you're saying isn't true, but I won't go on about that anymore.

I'm interested in discussing the ideas from the original post, so far one or two have done that in this thread, the rest are trying to pick apart my ideas and won't even try to entertain them because it means a world without arenas being important and that scares them.

[tikcol]

You have my vote honorboy

[Deathquoi]

What you're saying isn't true, but I won't go on about that anymore.

I'm interested in discussing the ideas from the original post, so far one or two have done that in this thread, the rest are trying to pick apart my ideas and won't even try to entertain them because it means a world without arenas being important and that scares them.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Anyone who doesn't agree with you "isn't discussing, they're trying to pick apart your ideas." That's called discussion. Discussion isn't telling you your ideas are great, it involves arguments and points and counterpoints. You don't want that, you just want people to pat you on the back and tell you you're right, which makes you not worth discussing anything with.

[Deleted]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Anyone who doesn't agree with you "isn't discussing, they're trying to pick apart your ideas." That's called discussion. Discussion isn't telling you your ideas are great, it involves arguments and points and counterpoints. You don't want that, you just want people to pat you on the back and tell you you're right, which makes you not worth discussing anything with.

They never tried to discuss the ideas, they flat out said "these ideas are bad and I don't want them happening, cya".

That is not a discussion, that is shutting down people with different opinions and ideas to others and thinking that it's the correct way to behave.

I am defending my ideas because many people including myself think these ideas are good, if you don't like my ideas and show no willingness to entertain these ideas and suggest changes then I'm going to have to ask you to leave as what you're doing as of now is considered trolling.

[Deathquoi]

They never tried to discuss the ideas, they flat out said "these ideas are bad and I don't want them happening, cya".

That is not a discussion, that is shutting down people with different opinions and ideas to others and thinking that it's the correct way to behave.

I am defending my ideas because many people including myself think these ideas are good, if you don't like my ideas and show no willingness to entertain these ideas and suggest changes then I'm going to have to ask you to leave as what you're doing as of now is considered trolling.

I already told you why I don't agree with you. Disagreeing with you and pointing out flaws in your arguments is not trolling. Also, this thread is not your property and you cannot tell people that disagree with you to leave.

[Sanguinerd]

I would..

- Remove PvP templates
- Restore honor/conq + their vendors
- Balance for battlegrounds not arena
- Make battlegrounds reward the same as arena but at a slower pace