Leoric players : How do you feel compared to Malthael ?

[Deleted]

Hi ! Since the release of Malthael i've got the feeling that Leoric is underpowered compared to the angel of death. It's like everything Leoric does, Malthael does it better.
Is Leoric outdated ? What is he still good at ?

[Deleted]

Leoric is by far my most played warrior. He is (mostly) fine; his second ult could use a numbers or usability buff. Malt on the other hand is broken af and really should have been nerfed this week. His two most used builds have winrates of 67.8 resp. 67.7%, meaning if you don't ban him or he is controlled by a retard, your chance to win is less than 1 in 3.

[Tenris]

They fulfill different roles so its a hard comparison, they are both good against high health targets due to their percentage based attacks. Malthael is all about kill targets and has no escape or CC, whereas Leroic has an AoE slow and entomb as well as an escape. They are designed for two different things.

[RH92]

Leoric is by far my most played warrior. He is (mostly) fine; his second ult could use a numbers or usability buff. Malt on the other hand is broken af and really should have been nerfed this week. His two most used builds have winrates of 67.8 resp. 67.7%, meaning if you don't ban him or he is controlled by a retard, your chance to win is less than 1 in 3.

To be honest, I don't buy the 'Malthael is broken' talk. Is it really that hard to chain a few CCs to kill him?

It reminds me of times when people claimed Butcher is overpowered because they can't stand and bang with the guy. People seem to struggle identifying what is threatening on Malthael, they have this DoT on them and play as if it was nothing only to complain once it kills them. He definitely is a high priority kill target, if he creeps over your frontline, your team can't fight. Poke him a bit, then close on him and kill him.

I am not denying his strengths, but the most broken thing in my opinion is % damage to ALL non-structure objects. It is the best scaling in the game.

[Raugnaut]

To be honest, I don't buy the 'Malthael is broken' talk. Is it really that hard to chain a few CCs to kill him?

It reminds me of times when people claimed Butcher is overpowered because they can't stand and bang with the guy. People seem to struggle identifying what is threatening on Malthael, they have this DoT on them and play as if it was nothing only to complain once it kills them. He definitely is a high priority kill target, if he creeps over your frontline, your team can't fight. Poke him a bit, then close on him and kill him.

I am not denying his strengths, but the most broken thing in my opinion is % damage to ALL non-structure objects. It is the best scaling in the game.

The %damage is limited though - At lvl 1, it caps out at 95 damage a second. Currently, it seems like Malth can really melt objectives like Golems, Immortals, Punishers, ect, but, really, Valla, Greymane, Zul'jin, Butcher, and Sylv can all outrace Malth on PvE objectives, especially late game. Even Lunara, with her lvl 7 DoT damage, can outpreform Malth. In fact, if you were to look at the bar, and prevent Malth from refreshing his dot, you would see that while at 3 seconds, it looks like the PvE objective is going to take 10% of its health in damage, at the 4 second mark when the dot fades, it only takes a minor amount of damage, and the dot effect is removed, making it seem like the PvE thing just gained 10% of its health back. This is further compounded once you hit 16 - The DoT seems HUGE, but if you manage to prevent Malth from reapplying it, it'll tick for a small amount of damage (But seems like it'll do 30% of the bosses health in damage over the next 6 seconds), and then fade, only dealing something like 2% of the bosses health in damage due to the %health damage cap.

For more comparision, a fresh set of Immortals tends to have 18750 HP. Malth's dot deals 95 damage a second to them. This is equivalent to .5% of an immortals health in damage every second. Thus, it would take the dot 200 seconds, or a bit over 3 minutes in order to kill the immortal IF only the DoT was being applied to the immortal. Note that the DoT scales the same as allmost all other damage - +4%/lvl. At 16, with Momento Mori, its doubled, but again - thats only 1% of an immortals health in damage.

Now, granted, when combined with his AA and Q spam, this puts him at ~250ish PvE dps, up to 350ish with Momentro Mori, but thats pretty much as far as the scaling goes for Malth.

Greymane puts out a bit over 300 PvE dps at lvl 1. This can be further increased with talents - 30% extra with Wizened Duelist (So 400 PvE dps), and the another... ~24%ish with Eager Wolf (So further increased to 500 PvE dps)

Zul'jin can put out over 350 PvE dps at lvl 1. This is further increased 25% with Recklessness (437), and then an extra 35% with Ferocity (589 PvE dps)

Valla is a bit lower, but she can put out 240 PvE dps at lvl 1. Her talent scaling is pretty strong however - Creed of the Hunter and Rancor means that Valla is dealing over 400 PvE dps.

Butcher, once he completes his quest, is sitting at ~460 PvE dps. Increases to nearly 600 PvE dps with talents.

And there are others too - Samuro, Gazlowe, Sylv, ect, who scale exceptionally well with talents. Malth's strength is NOT in his PvE damage output, but rather the fact that if he isn't focused in a team fight, he can't be killed. And at lower skill lvls, how often is ANY single hero focused on by the entire team?

[RH92]

*Snip*

I know he doesn't have the best DPS, but a strong fire and forget DoT effect is pretty good though.

However the best thing is, he does it 'baseline' without sacrificing portion of his PvP prowess. I know it doesn't sound groundbreaking, but it is good perk to have.

[Zapanth]

I feel as if he is a really balanced hero. Yes his damage is reliable, when you can land the dot. Against a ranged comp with only 1 melee hes really lackluster because his ranged skill is easily avoided. Hes really weak to ranged pokers/specs. Solo laning vs valla or li ming can be really frustrating. His lack of CC and mobility really make securing kills and escapes hard. (His ult being an exception to landing a kill). Vs immortals and other larger objs, again he cant poke to defend or poke to ward off enemies. IF you cant close melee to land a dot he cant blink on them.

[skorpio]

Blizzard mentioned leoric rework. I hope it will be in next patch.

[RH92]

Blizzard mentioned leoric rework. I hope it will be in next patch.

Even though I don't play Leoric anymore, I am interested in this rework.

He seems rather dull to play, you just wave clear and annoy frontline Heroes. Outside of Entomb you just don't feel impactful.

For some reason I expect emphasis on his Undying trait, giving him few more perks when dead. I think the idea was always cool of having Hero that never really dies, but it turned out abilities while dead are only to return back faster and not something that can be utilized meaningfully even when you die like on Uther for example.

[NoiseTank13]

To be honest, I don't buy the 'Malthael is broken' talk. Is it really that hard to chain a few CCs to kill him?
.

He can be incredibly tanky with Tormented Souls and Ethereal Existence that you'd be doing him and his team a favor blowing CC on him.

[RH92]

He can be incredibly tanky with Tormented Souls and Ethereal Existence that you'd be doing him and his team a favor blowing CC on him.

What you are talking about is only against AAs and if you stun or silence him, he can't self-heal.

If you ignore him and let him hard engage, you deserve to die. Simple.

[Raugnaut]

I know he doesn't have the best DPS, but a strong fire and forget DoT effect is pretty good though.

However the best thing is, he does it 'baseline' without sacrificing portion of his PvP prowess. I know it doesn't sound groundbreaking, but it is good perk to have.

Well, out of the heroes I mentioned, the ONLY one who sacrifices her PvP power to do even more PvE damage is.. Lunara. That is it.

There are very few heroes in the game that must actively sacrifice PvP power in order to deal significantly more damage to PvE targets.

Artanis - He sacrifices minor defense in exchange for ~60% increased PvE damage. (Seasoned Marksman, on Artanis, is close to being a trap talent imo)

Valla sacrifices either increased movement speed, OR utility in her E, for 150% more damage on her Q against PvE targets. However, do note that the vast majority of her damage against PvE targets will come from her auto-attack, NOT her Q, even with 150% more damage on it.

Lunara either sacrifices more spread damage, or more single-target damage in exchange for 150% more damage on her trait, which is fairly large.

Malfurion sacrifices either 33% less uptime on Innervate, OR the utility of Scouting Drone in exchange for more PvE damage.

And thats pretty much it in terms of talents that allow you to increase your PvE damage that share a tier with PvP/utility talents.

[RH92]

*Snip*

I wasn't talking about just one talent, but entire builds. Sure you can say you sacrifice one talent, but isolated talents in other builds rarely work.

If you ignore map specific picks as is Artanis, both Lunara and Valla sacrifice a good portion of their team fight role. Lunara losses very important Splintered Spear and Valla is forced into less optimal team fight Hungering Arrow build while Multishot build is the standard. Last, but not least, Malfurion has to complete a quest in order to race on objective.

So far Greymane and Malthael are the only Heroes who can race well with their standard builds. Also Kharazim, but it depends whether you live in past and still doubt Iron Fists is a standard.

[Raugnaut]

I wasn't talking about just one talent, but entire builds. Sure you can say you sacrifice one talent, but isolated talents in other builds rarely work.

If you ignore map specific picks as is Artanis, both Lunara and Valla sacrifice a good portion of their team fight role. Lunara losses very important Splintered Spear and Valla is forced into less optimal team fight Hungering Arrow build while Multishot build is the standard. Last, but not least, Malfurion has to complete a quest in order to race on objective.

So far Greymane and Malthael are the only Heroes who can race well with their standard builds. Also Kharazim, but it depends whether you live in past and still doubt Iron Fists is a standard.

Again, Valla does not have to go a Q build if she picks up the 150% extra damage on hungering arrow - The only thing she is loosing is 10% extra movement speed at max hatred (If you use Q on CD, then the mana return comes out to be around the same). None of the lvl 1 talents are 100% critical to a Multishot build.

Lunara does lose Splinted Spear, which I mentioned. Its a tradeoff - The 150% increase damage on the DOT is absolutely enourmous, so if you need the PvE pressure more then a 220 damage Aoe (Which is what Splintered Spear is), then you go for that.

Also, please note that Butcher can race extremely well with his standard build, as can Samuro, Zul'Jin, and a myraid of other heroes.

The main point I am trying to make is that, yes, Malthael's trait gives him good PvE damage. However, there are still a LARGE number of other heroes who can deal FAR more damage to an objective then Malthael can - Some need significant talent investment, whereas others do it as part of their baseline kit, but the fact remains that Malth isn't too special in the PvE department.

[RH92]

Again, Valla does not have to go a Q build if she picks up the 150% extra damage on hungering arrow - The only thing she is loosing is 10% extra movement speed at max hatred (If you use Q on CD, then the mana return comes out to be around the same). None of the lvl 1 talents are 100% critical to a Multishot build.

Sure you can do it, but you are running a half-assed build then. Monster Hunter is not that great without Puncturing Arrow and Multishot build suffers without Punishment.

Also, please note that Butcher can race extremely well with his standard build, as can Samuro, Zul'Jin, and a myraid of other heroes.

The main point I am trying to make is that, yes, Malthael's trait gives him good PvE damage. However, there are still a LARGE number of other heroes who can deal FAR more damage to an objective then Malthael can - Some need significant talent investment, whereas others do it as part of their baseline kit, but the fact remains that Malth isn't too special in the PvE department.

Sure Butcher and Samuro have good DPS, but both are far from optimal picks and Zul'jin needs to kill himself before he can start dishing out DPS.

I am not sure what is the point you are trying to make. If you are judging PvE DPS, sure. There are better Heroes, but you never bring a Hero for just one thing and Malthael is better Hero overall than most Heroes already mentioned.

[pateuvasiliu]

Leoric is by far my most played warrior. He is (mostly) fine; his second ult could use a numbers or usability buff. Malt on the other hand is broken af and really should have been nerfed this week. His two most used builds have winrates of 67.8 resp. 67.7%, meaning if you don't ban him or he is controlled by a retard, your chance to win is less than 1 in 3.

Are those ranked match win percentages or PUBs? Because PUBs and low elo don't mean anything. Malthael has no defences, stun him and he's dead.

Also avoid the bad shit E spawns that kills your hp.

[Deleted]

Those were HL one week win rates over all leagues according to hotslogs. Currently the two builds sit at 68.8 and 65.9%.

https://www.hotslogs.com/Sitewide/He...?Hero=Malthael


If you don't like low elo, restricting to Diamond and Masters gives them 69.3 and 67.7%. However in these leagues there are even two other builds both above 70%. Trying to argue against those kind of numbers with 'stun him' anecdotes is reasonably pointless.

Srey's tier list from today has him at "Tier S (Overtuned. Can 1v3 some teams, crazy strong at 20)"

[Mutthearkin]

I played Leoric in 6 of my last 20 team league games because of this thread and I won them all. I do agree that he is in need of some reworking but overall he is still a good hero. To compare him with Malth is weird though, they are both tank busters, but untill level 13 you are extremely squishy as Malth and Leo is a real bruiser so they don't fill the same role in the draft.

On Malth himself: he is a decent solo laner and pve-er and a great teamfighter. PvE wise on BoE he will still be outclassed by Valla (and no Q spec is not sacrificing anything unlike what some people say on that map), Greymane and a few other meta heroes but he does a great job there no matter the standard. Against good players he is very easily outdrafted with strong ranged heroes, Anub/Sonya/Artanis/Dehaka and anything with high burst and a little CC. Win % doesn't say much after 1,5 week, even in high ranking (that are also not representative due to the season just starting). I do agree that he needs a small nerf but he probably needs it less than Genji at the moment who has less counterplay.

[Deleted]

Grubby chiming in:

https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthe...balanced_hero/

[RH92]

Grubby chiming in:

https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthe...balanced_hero/

Couldn't be a more misleading video.

Just watch Valeera and Chromie, since they misplayed so hard he could pop Heroic with level 13 talent against 5 low AA damage Heroes. On top of that they all dropped their CC at the start and at the same time.

Malthael is strong, but not anywhere near Thrall on release. Sure he needs a nerf, but people are overreacting a bit in my opinion.