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  1. #1

    Is this game's content still based on memorization?

    What drove me away is spending hours reading/watching guides and then more to play a hopeless fight ("practicing") that inevitably just made the whole group salty and disband.

    Is the endgame still like that, with bosses full of phases and patterns that you have to practice and memorize to beat and you gear barely mattered? Or did it became more intuitive like WoW?

    I'm curious about the new expansion but if endgame raiding is still a rather unenjoyable experience then I think it's not for me.

  2. #2
    High Overlord zesilo's Avatar
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    It sounds like the end game experience is more of a challenge than you like.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuubakusatsu View Post
    Is the endgame still like that, with bosses full of phases and patterns that you have to practice and memorize to beat and you gear barely mattered? Or did it became more intuitive like WoW?
    This confuses me....

    Wow is the same way, There is ability's/patterns u must remember and depending what level of raiding you do in both games gear does matter less. In FFXIV it isn't hard to remember the stuff because it comes up as big ass orange circles u avoid.

    To me it sounds like you just don't want a MMO raiding experience, That is more then standing in one spot and smacking the boss.

    So I recommend LFR in WoW or the LFG raids in FFXIV since both have things u barely need to remember. FFXIV is harder in this regard then WoW.
    Last edited by Jtbrig7390; 2017-06-26 at 03:04 AM.
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  4. #4
    I'd like an informative answer that doesn't resorts to snarky remarks. Is it still like that or not?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuubakusatsu View Post
    I'd like an informative answer that doesn't resorts to snarky remarks. Is it still like that or not?
    You were given a straight up answer above. If that is "snarky" to you then I don't know what to say.

    Yes FF14 has fights that are mostly about memorisation and mechanics. As do a lot of MMOs with raiding. And the odd DPS checks.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuubakusatsu View Post
    What drove me away is spending hours reading/watching guides and then more to play a hopeless fight ("practicing") that inevitably just made the whole group salty and disband.

    Is the endgame still like that, with bosses full of phases and patterns that you have to practice and memorize to beat and you gear barely mattered? Or did it became more intuitive like WoW?

    I'm curious about the new expansion but if endgame raiding is still a rather unenjoyable experience then I think it's not for me.
    yes if you had any experience before it will likely seem the same.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuubakusatsu View Post
    I'd like an informative answer that doesn't resorts to snarky remarks. Is it still like that or not?
    The info I gave was not snarky nore was I trying to sound like a ass.
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  8. #8
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    How is WoW not also about phases and patterns? It's literally about phases and patterns, you just have a fat addon telling you when it comes.

  9. #9
    Yes, it is still like that.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua View Post
    Well let's be real, in ARR it really wasn't a fun challenge. You had a glorious start with the Hard mode Titan and its wonderful display of the game's phenomenal netcode with people getting hit by an AoE and their corpse being on the other side of the arena from it while they're going, "wtf...I was way out of that." Or what about T5 and that amazing mechanic that people could only do successfully by cheesing the bad netcode once again and positioning in a small divet in the floor then moving out at the exact right time. Or T7 and that wonderful add spawn RNG that could basically guarantee a wipe that was completely out of your control about 25% of the time (fun and fair!).

    Look I love FFXIV, and maybe later Alex Savage tiers were better but at least BC and first round of Savage Alex was just terrible. From what I hear they basically made further Savage content just braindead easy, probably because they can't figure how to make a fight that's both difficult and fair.
    I won't deny that there are some notoriously bad bosses in Gordias savage and Coils savage, but I think "braindead easy" isn't a good description for a difficulty mode the vast majority of players don't bother with purely because of its difficulty, even when the later parts of Alex got tuned down compared to Gordias.

    Is it perfect? No, but shitting on FFXIV's boss design like some other MMO somehow has perfection when it comes to tuning (spoiler alert, there isn't one, not even the precious wow) is pretty damn laughable.
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  11. #11
    All the dungeons, raids and trials have bosses who follow certain ability patterns, yes, and the Extreme/Savage fights will be especially punishing to those who don't learn them, and to everyone else with them. But even the story content has this to some degree, though with time it'll get easier when more people gear and overgear the fights to lessen the impact of those who don't/won't perform the fight as well. Even the Elite Hunts out in the world have mechanics that can wipe you if you don't obey them, mostly the S-Rank ones.

    The closest you'll get away from that sort of thing is the Deep Dungeon, where randomness of floor, enemy and trap layout is the challenge. Its boss fights are far less punishing for the most part. But if you don't enjoy that sort of role-less rogue-lite action, then there's not much left for you besides dailies.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua View Post
    Well from my experience, and maybe this changed in the last 2 tiers of Alex Savage (I skipped those), FFXIV has a much more static feel in that, a boss generally does everything on set timers exactly the same every time with maybe one RNG mechanic (that they can rarely get right, See T7). Whereas WoW you see more of, "Boss has 30 second timers on this ability, but will use it anywhere from 30 seconds to 1.5 minutes). Makes each pull just a little bit more unique. And while WoW has several RNG factors they usually aren't as impactful as, say, BCT7 where add spawn and debuff targets can literally be a guaranteed wipe and that happens about 1/4 of the time.

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    Well I'm not saying WoW is perfect, but it's pretty much night and day when it comes to progression raiding. I mean you have WoW with 10ish boss raid tiers, Legion doing an exception job pumping those out every 4-5 months. 4 difficulty modes. A very competitive race with tens of thousands of guilds pushing content. And while boss tuning can be totally whack sometimes (lol @ Mythic NH difficulty jump after Trilliax), at least you have like several tiers of progression and the bosses are much more fun to progress with more unique mechanics that, for the most part, are pretty fair. Meanwhile FFXIV...4 boss raid tiers with some extreme primals thrown in once in a while, and you're either living the Savage/Extreme life or you're in PUG city, there's very little in between (I suppose Extreme primals could be considered the in between).

    And yeah I have no idea if the last Alex tier was braindead easy, that's just what I've heard from some of my friends that have stuck it through. I can tell you right now I think the big difference between the FFXIV raider mentality and the WoW raider mentality is this: WoW raiders generally play WoW to raid. FFXIV raiders raid to slightly enhance their FFXIV experience lol. No one wants to sit on the 4 boss tiers for 6 months at a time no matter how tough they are or if they're even fun. I did 100+ Turn 9 pulls back when it was the toughest encounter in the game, about 20 pulls in I was definitely not having fun anymore but I did it because a) I liked the people and b) I wanted that title lol. I raid in WoW becuase a) it's fun and b) it's fun. I'm not saying I've never had fun with FFXIV raiding, but it's definitely not the reason I play and pretty much everyone I ended up progressing Savage with either was ignorant of the greener pastures that was the WoW raid scene or had some bitter hatred of Blizzard because "dey ruin da game by taking talent trees" or some other nonsense, which is hilarious coming from an FFXIV player considering the game has next to no player customization when it comes to battle mechanics.
    who cares about the number of bosses in WoW when the first half of every raid is just filler bosses with 2 mechs for the majority to clear.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    The info I gave was not snarky nore was I trying to sound like a ass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    You were given a straight up answer above. If that is "snarky" to you then I don't know what to say.

    Yes FF14 has fights that are mostly about memorisation and mechanics. As do a lot of MMOs with raiding. And the odd DPS checks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theprejudice View Post
    How is WoW not also about phases and patterns? It's literally about phases and patterns, you just have a fat addon telling you when it comes.
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    You were answered, quite well, by Jtbrig7390 above you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    This confuses me....

    Wow is the same way, There is ability's/patterns u must remember and depending what level of raiding you do in both games gear does matter less. In FFXIV it isn't hard to remember the stuff because it comes up as big ass orange circles u avoid.

    To me it sounds like you just don't want a MMO raiding experience, That is more then standing in one spot and smacking the boss.

    So I recommend LFR in WoW or the LFG raids in FFXIV since both have things u barely need to remember. FFXIV is harder in this regard then WoW.
    not snarky at all. starts off being confused by the question, then answers it anyway "you dont like mmos, play wow"

    great answer ..yup

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    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    yes if you had any experience before it will likely seem the same.
    thanks for the real answer!!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua View Post
    And the 2 big bots in A1 or elevator trash gauntlets like T4 in FFXIV aren't? lol
    yea the first boss is usually the easiest that's how raids go. they haven't even done a t4 boss since then either.

    i mean if you really wanted to look at numbers we get 5 bosses every 3 months. the team could just put out a 10 boss tier every 6 months and scale it down and call it lfr but they rather make ex primals and unique 24 mans instead.

  15. #15
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    Once more, I have to ask why people think that raids have to be super difficult and challenging so that they can be enjoyed.
    It's really not like FFXIV raid are WoW-LFR quality in difficulty, so there is some challenge to it. DPS checks are easy if you can play your class (if..)..most of the time that is.

    Yet FFXIV has something WoW doesn't have.
    Boss encounters that feel "epic" - even though I don't like to use that word.


    That alone is worth more than anything when it comes to raiding. It's pretty much why most of us started raiding anyway.
    The only boss I enjoyed in Legion so far (in terms of looks) was Star Augur.
    WoW raids have basically nothing to offer but difficulty.. and it's probably the reason why they are so difficult/tuned like that in the first place.

    And another big bonus point is that there is nearly no trash in FFXIV Raids / Trials


    Look at what Legion did with Mythic+. That's a great example of making your content last and be appealing for players of all skill levels. I'm not saying multiple difficulty modes is the correct choice but let's take a look at what WoW's had in the last year since Legion released:
    eh... I thought so too, but after a while, you just stop caring about it. Last mythic+ I did was 2++ months ago. The items aren't appealing, the AP isn't that important anymore, and that's basically the only reason why you'd want to farm that shit.
    Same thing with FFXIV DR imho.
    Last edited by mmoc96d9238e4b; 2017-06-26 at 05:12 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by nailbomb View Post
    not snarky at all. starts off being confused by the question, then answers it anyway "you dont like mmos, play wow"

    great answer ..yup
    Stating a fact is snarky? I didn't say don't like mmos, play wow. I said based on there post it doesn't seem like they like the raiding experience in MMO's.

    Its all the same setup just done slightly different. So yes there question is confusing since what they said conflict's with how both WoW and FFXIV do raiding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    Once more, I have to ask why people think that raids have to be super difficult and challenging so that they can be enjoyed.
    It's really not like FFXIV raid are WoW-LFR quality in difficulty, so there is some challenge to it. DPS checks are easy if you can play your class (if..)..most of the time that is.

    Yet FFXIV has something WoW doesn't have.
    Boss encounters that feel "epic" - even though I don't like to use that word.


    That alone is worth more than anything when it comes to raiding. It's pretty much why most of us started raiding anyway.
    The only boss I enjoyed in Legion so far (in terms of looks) was Star Augur.
    WoW raids have basically nothing to offer but difficulty.. and it's probably the reason why they are so difficult/tuned like that in the first place.

    And another big bonus point is that there is nearly no trash in FFXIV Raids / Trials
    Couldn't agree more and its also why I like FFXIV Dungeons/Raids more. The fights just look and feel epic, but that's a personal thing.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtua View Post
    EDIT: To be fair I suppose you don't get an achievement unless you actually clear the tier so maybe that's wrong of me to assume you didn't raid, I just don't see any EX kills on your profile or BC/Alex kills (nor any jobs high enough to even do HW endgame). So if you did raid...well you weren't doing it right because you didn't get anything done lol! ;P
    I did the 24 man when it was in current in ARR and did some EX's right before HW came out. I haven't done anything in HW since I stopped playing soon after its release. Its not hard to see how raiding is done in any MMO and compare them. You do know we can easily look these things up right?

    I personally would put the 24man's on par with WoW NM raiding (current). But that's just my opinion.
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  18. #18
    Tbh.

    The servers are now a little better so you could go into a fight without having memorized anything, as long as you get out of shit at the right time you should be okay. You'll have to learn a few mechanics like kill the adds only when they have the bubble up etc...

    The only issue I had in SB was on Susano EX where sometimes I would get the damage even tho I wasn't moving nor attacking the boss but apparently I was (it happened twice maybe)
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuubakusatsu View Post
    What drove me away is spending hours reading/watching guides and then more to play a hopeless fight ("practicing") that inevitably just made the whole group salty and disband.

    Is the endgame still like that, with bosses full of phases and patterns that you have to practice and memorize to beat and you gear barely mattered? Or did it became more intuitive like WoW?

    I'm curious about the new expansion but if endgame raiding is still a rather unenjoyable experience then I think it's not for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuubakusatsu View Post
    I'd like an informative answer that doesn't resorts to snarky remarks. Is it still like that or not?
    You take an honest answer as snarky? then your post is 10x as much.

    WoW fights are literally memory fights, after you have enough gear to beat enrage; the exact same thing as FFXIV. Where as in WoW you have boss mods to have timers, audible alerts, and graphics on your screen ... in FFXIV, you have emotes and graphics on your screen, although you have to read what the boss is casting to respond properly in several fights, look around to see where the ability is coming from and determine where to move/stack/gtfo from the rest of the party.

    You don't want an honest answer, you want confirmation of your bias. WoW is about as simple as it gets, by design. It was the casual version of MMOs at its inception as competition for EverQuest. Listen to the high end raiders, they are bored. There is no dynamic fight patterns. Just listen to Preach preach.

    When was the last time you had a raid like Ulduar where you could do something in many fights to alter the raid mechanics? When does the pattern of boss spell rotations and timings change? Raiding in MMOs is patterns, in WoW from LFR to Mythic, just the amount of things you need to memorize and dance around is a lot higher in the higher difficulties. Just like, for example, nidhogg normal versus extreme. In extreme, you don't get the big markers on the ground, you have to pay attention to what he emotes or the cast bar and react to it. There is no DBM saying 'casting x, move to flanks' ... you just have to know the fight and do it. In WoW, even if you don't use boss mods, guess what, you have to know the fight and do it. From the safety dance in Naxx to dancing in moonlight in ToS. There is nothing special about it. That isn't snarky, that is facts.

    So, do you have what it takes to play MMO raids or not? Lots of movement, reaction, paying attention, working together, and performing your role to its full potential to beat enrage timers; in WoW or FFXIV. I'm guessing its still similar in SWtOR as well but haven't done a raid in that in several years.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    He gave a decent answer to the question in the OP. Why is the fact that it may or may not contain 'snark', or that you got your feelers hurt over text on a computer screen, more important that the info given?

    Ya see it's crap like this is why China is winning.
    very ironic

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